At present the Israelis are fighting a war with the Palestinians. In war many wrong acts occur. We can look at that war and compare it with the war between the settlers and government of Australia and the Aborigines. Australia had a policy of removing children from their Aboriginal parents and forcing Christianity, an alien religion, on those children. Although Israel is not free from criticism, the government has not removed Muslim children from their parents and forced Judaism on them. Can Australia look back at what has been done and apologise for forcing an alien religion on Aboriginal children?

David never misses an opportunity, no matter how irrelevant to the subject of Israel or anything else, to show his disdain for Christianity. He has been silent for so long that I thought he might have left us to find out whether or not his attitude to God and Christianity was right or wrong.

Hi david f,
I don't think any religion should be forced on any children.
I think kids should be allowed to decide on their own religious beliefs when they are old enough to do so.

Dear David F.,

«At present the Israelis are fighting a war with the Palestinians.»

At present the Israelis are fighting a war with Hamas, possibly also Hezbollah: the general "Palestinian" population is not an enemy of Israel and many of them also oppose Hamas.

Yes, I am aware that some in the present Israeli government consider any Arab an enemy, but this is not how the majority of Israelis see it.

Stirring up the Arabs isn't a good thing;
Firstly you risk every Muslim saying "We've had enough of this and declaring global Jihad on Israel, coming from nations all across the global south to destroy Israel... there's that

- Especially when they have a significant presence in all western nations now...

And then there's the fact that Saudi Arabia and Iran have mended the fences, and if the Arabs decide "Right, we're going to turn off the oil taps to the West until the Palestinians are given their own sovereign state, it's checkmate for the West.

In just a few weeks we could be paying 4 times the price for fuel and all Western economies will be destroyed with the only reliable oil source being Vladimir Putin.

The West wants to look tough, but they aren't really holding a great hand of cards atm.
With wars in Ukraine, Israel and potentially Iran and Taiwan, as well as a serious southern border problem in the US while their military stocks are low, their nation and empire is crumbling around them.

"At present the Israelis are fighting a war with the Palestinians."
- Yes that's right and it's been going on for generations.

Under occupation every single member of the IDF is a legitimate military target, but killing innocent women and kids is still a war crime.

Israel either underestimated the Palestinians and Hamas, or foolishly thought they could allow the attack to happen and capitalise on it afterwards, but they've messed up.

The world has seen Israels true colours in it's 'scorecard' response, Israel may be forced to face up to the 2 state solution and they have ticked off the Muslim world.

They've already had to walk back their planned ground offensive.
Politically speaking, it will take years for the dust in Israel to settle.

Dear David,

Unfortunately the truth is very different.
Human Rights, Watch, UNICEF, and other humanitarian
organizations present a very different picture.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has and continues
to take its toll. Children are not excluded.

Palestinian children aged between 11 and 17 years from
the West Bank and East Jerusalem continue to be detained
and arrested by Israeli forces. There are plenty of
reported forms of ill treatment of children and due
process violations when arrested and in detention
that illustrate the retributive justice system in Israel.

Israeli security forces have used unnecessary force to
arrest and detain Palestinian children as young as 11. It's
reported that security forces have choked, thrown
grenades at them, beaten them in custody and the list
goes on.

Palestinian children are exposed to unacceptable levels
of violence and this will unfortunately continue from the
occupation and ongoing Israeli conflict.

Now with the banning of food, water, and electricity - to
the regions - hospitals will be affected and the bodies
will continue to pile up.

Nothing can justify this carnage.

Anyone who doesn't denounce terrorism is a terrorist.
Anyone who doesn't denounce misappropriation of public funding is an enemy of the State.
Anyone not doing the job they get paid for & those who knowingly let them do so are also enemy of the State.
Anyone knowingly keep loopholes of the Law open is an enemy of the State.
All are a danger to society !

As for this bitter rubbish about Christianity being forced on natives, at the time it was only Christian missionaries who were doing anything for them.

What Jewish Israel has to do with supposed conversion to Christianity in Australia escapes me; but on that brave little country defending itself from terrorism, TV news last night had footage and comment on the terrorists digging up water pipes to use for firing rockets through.

Hamas is the cause of everything happening to people in Gaza now.

Apart from a couple of unfathomable posters here, and a relatively few wackjobs on weekends - some of whom might not be citizens - Australians DO NOT support terrorists, hostage takers, and users of humans as shields to hide behind.

Australians support Israelis defending themselves from terrorists. They do not blame Israel for what Hamas terrorists are doing to Palestinians in Gaza. Ripping up water pipes, using foreign aid for the genocidal attempts against Jews. Palestinians actually living in Gaza - not the "refugees" safely in the West - do not like Hamas. What is happening to these Palestinians is all down to Hamas terrorism.

One thing that Dutton has stood up and said, sensibly, is that the gangs on the streets should be banished from Australia. So should a couple of people here and on other social media, if they could be identified.

Nothing can justify this carnage.
Foxy,
Send an email to Hamas !

I think the question being posed is "What happens when a technically and socially advanced culture meets hunter gatherers?". These days it is referred to as "closing the gap".

I am hoping that the failed referendum will lead to a major rethink about how remote indigenous Australians are helped. To a lesser degree I also hope that the referendum was the high point of malevolence of the woke supremacy movement.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Of course, you are right. The war is not with the Palestinian people, many of whom are merely victims caught in the crossfire. Unfortunately, they may be treated as enemies.

Dear Foxy,

You are right also. I am wrong. As far as I know, there has never been any sort of a democratic process for the Palestinian people to choose Hamas for their representatives.

Dear ttbn,

I doubt that you would appreciate having any religion forced on you, but you apparently are ok with yours being forced on others. In the missionary compounds children were forced to adopt an alien religion with such nonsense as a virgin having a baby and people living on after they are dead. If people want to voluntarily accept such rubbish they may do so. However, forcing such garbage on the mind a child is criminal. Especially, since they already had a religion which doesn't alienate them from their people. Aboriginal children were exposed to other forms of child abuse in addition to the Christian nonsense. Many non-Aboriginal people are discarding that nonsense. The percentage of people with no religion reported in the census continues to increase. Our local Christian Reform Church near where I live sponsors the Genesis Project which denies evolution and maintains the earth is about 6,000 years. They also support those beasts of pray, the school chaplains. Go and drink at the font of ignorance.

At present the Israelis are fighting a war with the Palestinians. In war many wrong acts occur. We can look at that war and compare it with the war between the settlers and government of Australia and the Aborigines. Australia had a policy of removing children from their Aboriginal parents and forcing Christianity, an alien religion, on those children. Although Israel is not free from criticism, the government has not removed Muslim children from their parents and forced Judaism on them. Can Australia look back at what has been done and apologise for forcing an alien religion on Aboriginal children?
Posted by david f, Monday, 16 October 2023 2:18:26 PM

Answer- You could argue that Anglo-British Australian's taught Aboriginal Children Christianity so that they would have a common understanding with Anglo culture for common understanding to create peace. Aboriginal culture is very different from other world cultures (everything else in the world was alien) because Australia was so isolated- it couldn't remain isolated- therefore Anglo-British did Aboriginal culture a service- in a sense. Queen Victoria had a policy of preservation of native cultures during the 1800's.

Dear David,

Hamas emerged in 2006 in Gaza's elections against its
rival Yasser Arafat's Palestinian faction - the Fatah
Party. It has been in control of Gaza since. No elections
have been held there after and Hamas maintains political
control.

Many Palestinians are reluctant to condemn Hamas seeing
Israel as an occupier state over the Palestinian territories.
Israelis see Hamas as a terrorist organization - bent on
the destruction of Israel.

It's a horrid situation all round - and who knows when and
how it will all end.

Innocent people on both sides are caught up in this conflict.
I'm still praying that some leaders will be able to find a
solution on which both sides can agree - but at the moment
things do not look very hopeful.

David

Hamas won 44.5% of the votes, 72 seats, more than half in the 2006 election.

On the aboriginal/Christian topic you are just as ignorant, clearly following the Leftist script of bent historians.

I was sent to Sunday school, then church by my father. At the age of 16 I was allowed to make up my own mind, and I stopped attending church because I found it boring. I still do, and I have not "witnessed my faith" as the 'rules' say since. Organised religion is a crock, but I remain a Christian.

Not that much different from your "forced" Christianity in the case of aborigines, who had the same opportunity to exercise their own will as I did. But you, as a condescending Leftist, would probably think that aboriginal people couldn't do that, and needed to be saved by atheists like yourself.

Your description of Christianity as "nonsense" and "garbage" and the teaching of Christianity as "criminal" is a disgrace, even for you.

Your very long life has been wasted. You have wallowed in ignorance. And you know bugger all about anything.

CM

Hear! Hear!

I understood that David F is an immigrant who's Australian history is not a lived one, but reliant on Leftist story-telling.

To paraphrase Christ on the cross, forgive him because he is ignorant and doesn't know what he is on about.

Another comment I'd make is that the gap still exists, but I would at least give credit for the early settlers/missionaries for thinking education important. Maybe David was annoyed at Christianity being a moral authority, but is that worse than any other entity being a moral authority? The thing I most disliked about the yes campaign was their belief that they held the moral high ground. I can state on the basis of my life experience that anyone who assumes to have moral authority is a see you next Tuesday kind of person. I think that the principal of equality has a role in limiting the assumptions that you might make about others.

There was nothing like the coercion used to convert aboriginals to Christianity, as is being applied to the general population to give up our proper ICE cars, & our reliable coal fired power generation & change to fire prone expensive battery cars, & intermittent hugely expensive wind power.

How is this Forcible conversion justified? Oh yes, lies & a con job.

Thanks ttbn. Kudos

Hasbeen

Good one on the EVs.

1200 hundred cars went up in flames at Luton airport UK. An EV is the main suspect even though "officials" say the source was a diesel car. The 'inferno' type fire suggests otherwise, and it is reported that most people remain unconvinced by the "official" verdict. They believe it was an EV; and given the sinking of a ship by an EV, and the shipping company's refusal to carry EVs ever again, who could blame them.

I don't think any coercion is going to get most people to give up the ICE cars anytime soon.

Dear ttbn,

Everyone's knowledge of Australian history is due to story telling. No one posting was around before the twentieth century so we couldn't get it first hand before then. After we started to read it depended on what sources we were given and what information bubble we chose to enter.

Dear ttbn,

You wrote "I was sent to Sunday school, then church by my father. At the age of 16 I was allowed to make up my own mind, and I stopped attending church because I found it boring. I still do, and I have not "witnessed my faith" as the 'rules' say since. Organised religion is a crock, but I remain a Christian."

Why do you remain a Christian?

Why do you remain a Christian?
david f,
I'm in a similar situation, opposed to religion & I'm Christian because that's what I was christened as.
I'm not proud of it when I witness so-called Christians on a daily basis but since this includes decent people I remain with that outfit. I know other religions/faiths have decent people too but when it comes to help others in need Christians are always up front !
Just don't make the mistake that I'm implying Christians to be Caucasian only ! Just like Westerners are of every ethnicity !

A couple of the more extreme posters show their true colours, with comments like; " enemy of the State" from Indy and; "should be banished from Australia" according to ttbn. Its obvious this pair would have no problem if a far right extremists government was to seize power, after all any "excesses" would only be necessary for the greater good of the majority (those like themselves) and only against undesirables (those not like themselves). That would be fine, until the regime introduced the 'Old Fart' law and started turning those like themselves into fertiliser, then they might get upset!

Hi David,

You're right about forced Christianity, it was done in the context of the belief by the European colonisers that their culture was superior in all aspects to the barbaric behaviour, they didn't even view it as a culture, of the inferior savage. Christianity was seen as an integral part of the "civilising" process, with the desirable benefit of not only ease of control of the now docile savage, but it helped make the savage useful to the European, but still maintaining him as a subordinate.

I guess that another example of having things forced on us would be the prospect of treaty and truth following the failure of the voice. Like wolcome to country/acknowledgement of country, it is forced on the plebs by people who think that they have a moral authority that exempts them from mundane conventions like democracy.

Paul

There are only three extreme posters, and you are one of them.

If I did have the list that you wildly imagine, you would be numbers three on it; you are merely crude and rude. The other two are noxious.

European culture WAS superior to Stone Age culture. It wasn't just a "belief". Australian aboriginal culture was the most miserable and backward in the entire world at the time of British settlement.

Like your old mate, David F, you know nothing about Christianity, and there is no reason why you should. Your mistake is pontificating on things about which you know absolutely nothing. Stick to the Green religion, old fella: you are an undoubted expert on that.

comments like; " enemy of the State" from Indy
Paul1405,
What do you call someone who give nothing back to the community they live in ?
Paul1405 ?

I came across this tweet of bible verses last night.
It's actually not the tweet linked to, but the response to that tweet.
(So you will have to scroll down just a little from the main post)

Is it relevant?

5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9 “‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,[a] burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the Lord.

12 “‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the Lord, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your ancestors. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your fellow Israelites, the people of Ephraim.’

Hi ttbn and indyvidual,
I too was forced to go to church and Sunday School, but only for 3 years during grades 8 - 10 of high school, but would frequently go and stay at my friends places on Saturday nights in order to avoid it.
- My father remarried a girl nearly half his age (He was 33 and she 17) and that girl, my stepmum was religious as were her large family.
This is very much a part of the reason why I criticise Christians the way I do, (and support ethics over religion) but I just never shared this fact about my adolescence with the forum.

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to the tweet of bible verses.
(There's also much more in the tweet, that I didn't have the space to post)
http://twitter.com/AndrewCoatswor3/status/1714417059512094986

We're told that there are 3 extremists on this
forum by a poster, obviously one who sees
himself as a keyboard warrior - basing his
judgements on views that don't agree with his own.

In other words - he doesn't consider himself or
the small minority of
his supporters on this forum as extremists.

Only those
others. And to him it all makes sense. And why shouldn't
it? He's a good person - those others are not.

He has also referred to David Fisher
as an "immigrant?" Even though our ancestries are from
somewhere else. Most of us are not Indigenous -
and our ancestors came from other lands.

How many years does it take to no longer be
considered an "immigrant?"

There are Brits who come here, and consider themselves
Aussies immediately and are also accepted as such.
Yet there's folk who've been born here - others who've
lived here for decades - who never
quite make the grade in some eyes - right?

There's also been the inference that David Fisher is some
sort of ignoramus? David is an online-opinion author.
I believe he met his late wife at Oxford or Cambridge. He's
originally from the US (Oregon, I think), and is
very knowledgeable in many fields. I have learned a great
deal from David's time on this forum.

May he continue to post for many, many years and share his
knowledge with us. This forum needs more like David and
less keyboard warriors.

Dear ttbn,

Hamas has participated in elections, has received many votes and has the support of many Palestinians. I was ignorant of that. Palestinians have supported Hamas. Wikipedia has a long article on Hamas.

I have no objection to children being taught about Christianity and other religions. What I object to is children being taught this is something they should believe in preference to what they have been taught by their parents and their tribe. I think it is good to know about the traditions of other people. Without a knowledge of Christianity much of western literature is meaningless. Without knowing about the ancient Greek, Roman, Norse and other myths much of classical literature is meaningless. Australians can learn about Aboriginal traditions. We can also learn about Asian and African cultures.

I also think children should be taught critical thinking, the scientific method and the virtue of doubt.

With all this wealth of learning we have to decide what is most important, useful and joyful.

Hi Armchair Critic,

Thank you for sharing a part of your life with us.
I was raised as a Catholic, as was my husband.
Our children were initially sent to private
Catholic schools. I'm not a regular church-goer.
And probably not a very good Catholic.
To me, my religion is a private
matter. I'm not looking towards converting anybody.
However, I would find living without a belief in
a higher authority difficult.

I understand where David is coming from. So much harm
has been done in the name of religion. And the most
bigoted people that I've ever met have been the
religious ones. Not sure why that is.

I remember someone close to me once telling me with great
pride that she went to Church every Sunday. I couldn't
help thinking - " Maybe you need to?" And felt guilty
afterwards for that wicked thought.

And with rants like this we might have a little peace from some moral authoritarians soon.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12644141/Welcome-Country-Katrina-Ngaityalya-Power.html

AC

You are entitled to criticise Christianity - or anything else. But why bother? The criticism that started this thread was apropos of nothing; it was pointless. I had relatives (long gone now) who worked at Ernabella Mission. They weren't missionaries: they trained young aboriginal kids for work.

I have visited Ernabella myself, and I can tell you that David F is warbling absolute bullshite. I can also tell you that the demise of missions is regretted by elders

Hi Foxy,
Thanks for your response.
I've only given limited info about my adolescence that related to the discussion, nowhere near enough info to put it into a larger context.

If I was to add a little more...
- I'd tell you I was born in Melbourne in '73, an only child and my parents had both worked for the airlines, They sold their home and we moved to Gold Coast when I was three to start a new life. We lived in a caravan park, my parents relationship broke down a year or so later, my Dad moved to another caravan park really close and I was about 7 or 8 when he met my stepmum - down from Brisbane for the weekend on her first big adventure away from home on her own. After my Dad and my stepmum got together my father pursued her, (and as you can imagine her parents were not pleased) after after my Dad got my stepmum pregnant he was compelled to move to Brisbane in order to get her familys approval to marry. My father is generally a decent man, but he's also incredibly ignorant and arrogant and doesn't handle criticism well.
This situation instantly made me the 'black sheep' and lead to conflict;
Neither my father or stepmum, recognised I was impacted by this new situation and to some degree I grew up a little dysfunctional, with an 'I don't care' attitude, and gave my mum a hard time, who often resorted to smacking me to keep me in line, (didn't really help things) which was why I ended up moving to Brisbane to start high school in Grade 8.

I've always been pretty big on opinions relating to forum topics, but really short on aspects of my life, not sure how relevant our personal lives are to forum topics.

Maybe I've given away too much info now?
We all have pasts, many of them were likely less than perfect or ideal.
- But I'm sure that many had it a lot worse than I did.

Hi Fester,

The disparities that lead to health, education, child-
welfare, employment, et cetera in this country have
apparently led to the reactions of people like "Hurricane
Katrina."

Hi ttbn,
"I had relatives (long gone now) who worked at Ernabella Mission. They weren't missionaries: they trained young aboriginal kids for work."

I sounds like your family had good intentions.
I think David f probably does make some valid points.

That the forcing of religion probably did in some ways separate the indigenous people from their own culture, as well as (his words) "children being taught this is something they should believe in preference to what they have been taught by their parents and their tribe"

We still have these same issues today, where the state tries to impose it's ideas of woke-ism onto impressionable kids, in opposition to what many parents themselves would approve.

As I stated elsewhere on the forum the other day:
"The indigenous need jobs and hope and role models to help them achieve it. Then they need a plan to improve their communities, and their sense of worth instead of being angry and resentful with little on the horizon. Then they need the courage to include themselves in society not demand more from it."

- I believe they need more of a hand up rather than more handouts.
What your family did 'training young aboriginal kids for work' should be considered admirable.
More of that is probably needed today.

Dear Foxy,

«So much harm
has been done in the name of religion. And the most
bigoted people that I've ever met have been the
religious ones. Not sure why that is.»

Have you considered the simple possibility that these were not really religious?

Hi Foxy,

You might behave like Katrina if you have a limited understanding or respect for principles like equality or the democratic process.

There was a time when cultish people thought that priests couldn't be criminals because of their moral training. I think that we are in a time where some people believe that indigenous people don't need to be audited because they are perfect moral beings when it comes to dealings with their fellow indigenous Australians.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I think you live in an unreal world. If someone does something bad or something you disapprove of, you simply define them as not religious. Therefore, religious people never do anything bad because if they do something bad, Yuyutsu will define them as not religious.

It reminds of the famous painting of a pipe labelled 'this is not a pipe.'

Dear David F.,

«religious people never do anything bad»

Even people who are mostly religious might lapse at times and do something which is incogruent with religion, something that instead of bringing them closer to God would drive them further away from God.

«Yuyutsu will define them as not religious.»

Someone who believes that God is evil and enjoys harming people, might claim otherwise, that evil people ARE religious (I would then disagree and present arguments to the contrary, but that would be a different story).

But how could an atheist like yourself who does not believe in God and prides themselves in science and logic, possibly disagree with me on that point?

In a matter of pure logic, if nothing one does can possibly bring them closer to God (which does not exist), if that be total nonsense, then the whole existence of religion must be seen as a superstition, then religion does not exist, in which case not only bad people but nobody whosoever (good, bad or anything in between) can be religious!

Thank you David, Yuyutsu you're off the planet on that one.

Absolutely correct, its like saying Nazi's didn't gas people in concentration camps, as Nazi's are incapable of such action. As soon as a person does such a thing they can no longer be a Nazi, they become something else. No they are still Nazi's.

Religious people, priests and brothers, who bastardised children are still religious people, regardless of their actions. End of story.

«religious people never do anything bad»

HA !

Dear Paul,

If a person overtly wears a Nazi uniform and is registered in the Nazi party, but covertly hides and saves Jews, then he is not truly a Nazi.

If a person overtly wears the robes of a priest or a brother, but covertly bastardises children, then he is not truly religious.

Yuyutsu,
Just like there's a difference between a needy person stealing & an already wealthy person hounding for more.
The needy will be prosecuted whereas the greedy can write more off Tax than the needy will ever have to live on !
A menial task minimum wage worker paying top rate Tax & an oxygen thieving bureaudroid salary sacrificing everything.
Yes, a fine society indeed !

Yuyutsu,

The religion that I grew up with was handed down
by a religious authority. You were expected to follow
its dictates without thought. The word of the authority
was supposed to be enough - and there was no need for
interpretation - so nothing more needed or should be
said. The matter was supposed to be settled for all time.

A good person was defined as one who adhered to the
religious dictates of the authority - without question.

For me that was problematic. I found this inability to
question as a sign of ignorance. And dangerous. Also I
did not like the divisiveness being preached from the
pulpit by supposedly holy men. At one time I even walked
out on a sermon.

My conscience does not allow me to follow the dictates of
something I consider to be wrong.

Dear Foxy,

I am very sorry for what happened to you in your childhood - that was disgusting and obviously wrong and I am happy that despite it all you have not given in, as you wrote: "My conscience does not allow me to follow the dictates of something I consider to be wrong."

Wonderful, so now I have a couple of questions for you:

Do you believe that God likes your tormentors and their wrongs?
Do you think that their authoritarian behaviour brought them any closer to God?

Should your answer be a 'No' to both questions, why then would you still call these monsters "religious"?

«The religion that I grew up with was handed down
by a religious authority. You were expected to follow
its dictates without thought»

No - you grew up into irreligion and hypocrisy by irreligious authoritarian figures!

Yuyutsu,

Religions have their code of morality, often
inscribed in scripture or in ethics handed
down by religious authorities. Some of religious
people rely upon scripture or authority without
thought. The revealed word the word of authority is
enough for them and they believe that there is no
need for interpretation and therefore nothing more
can or should be said. The matter is settled for
them.

This is the way the Catholic Church operates today.
And a good person is defined as one who adheres to
religious dictates without deviation.

I could not do that and left. I did what I thought was
right for me.

I do not wish to judge anyone else.

Dear Foxy,

Religions are there to help their adherents to come closer to God,
and one of the services they provide for that purpose is to codify morality.

In order to learn about God, one needs to, in this order:
1) hear and listen.
2) ask bold questions in order to remove any confusion or doubts one may have.
3) meditate on the teachings.

All three are required: an organisation which discourages the second step, does not serve religion.

«This is the way the Catholic Church operates today.»

And that begs the question: is the Catholic Church today [still] a religion?

«And a good person is defined as one who adheres to
religious dictates without deviation.»

True religion does not dictate, true religion teaches and answers questions,
True religion clears the road to God.
Without even questioning, what makes you believe that these dictates are at all religious?

«I could not do that and left. I did what I thought was
right for me.»

Good on you!
You may have left the church, but it does not mean that you left religion.

Hi Yuyutsu,

AND, if this God doesn't exist then what is the purpose of it all.

I posed the question some weeks back; Do Angels exist?

Well some supposedly intelligent religious men had to admit Angels, and by default the Devil and his followers, who were supposedly once Angles also didn't exist. Then they went on to allude to the good workings of Angles and the bad deeds of devils, who they agreed didn't exist, but were vital to the workings of God. I said but you have names for some Angels, and then there are what's called guardian angels. I wanted to know if there was a stock of Angels in reserve, and what were they doing? It was a laughable discussion, a bit like saying Santa Clause doesn't exist, but he brings us presents at Xmas time! And without Santa we'd get no presents, great logic. Any thoughts on that question of Angels.

This weeks discussion was is God ever wrong, and does he ever change his mind? They said God is never wrong, but God changes his mind, sometimes. I gave a glaring example of God changing his mind in the book of Exodus. If he has a mind then when he's wrong he must be able to change it. What do you say on God changing his mind. Is he wrong some of the time, therefore he needs to change his mind. Which if he doesn't exist then its a very difficult thing to do.

Do these things exist or don't they ? It doesn't matter when it comes to faith. After all, people can only believe in something by having the faith that it'll prove to be fact eventually !
That's why it's called faith !
Religion has nothing to do with it.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You wrote, "If a person overtly wears a Nazi uniform and is registered in the Nazi party, but covertly hides and saves Jews, then he is not truly a Nazi."

Schindler overtly wore a Nazi uniform and was registered in the Nazi party. He was truly a Nazi and served a term in a Czech prison because of his Nazi activities. He was truly a Nazi and also saved Jews. The world is more complicated than you think.

A person can also be a bad person, do bad things and still be religious.

Dear Paul,

«AND, if this God doesn't exist then what is the purpose of it all.»

Depends how you define 'purpose'.

«I posed the question some weeks back; Do Angels exist?»

Depends how you define 'angel'.

«Any thoughts on that question of Angels.»

If thoughts of angels inspire you, if they help you to purify your mind, then go ahead and pray to them.

«This weeks discussion was is God ever wrong, and does he ever change his mind?»

Such nonsensical questions arise from the silly assumption that God is some kind of a being.

«I gave a glaring example of God changing his mind in the book of Exodus.»

The book of Exodus was written by people, flesh and blood, who were so trapped in the concept of time that they even attempted to describe God in terms of a being who lives in time: bigger, stronger, wiser, but still a being. I wouldn't take their stories seriously, especially when science tells us that this exodus never happened.

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Dear David F.,

Suppose that through ignorance, Schindler was counted after WWII as a Nazi by the Czechs that imprisoned him, then that would not make him a Nazi any more than child-molesting priests who through ignorance are considered "religious".

But it looked strange to me that he was imprisoned, so I looked up and found that Schindler was actually imprisoned BEFORE WWII, not after, and for spying for Germany, not for being a Nazi.

He might have been a Nazi before the war, I cannot tell, but he certainly wasn't during and after the war.

«A person can also be a bad person, do bad things and still be religious.»

Yes. A person with a bad nature who makes sincere efforts to improve their character, even if they fail at times, can be considered to be religious. Religious institutions are supposed to support the efforts of these people. To be pedantically precise, I would say that such a person is being religious most of the time.

In the past in the remote Aboriginal communities – mostly under the auspices of the Christian missions – there was a near complete lack of domestic violence, child abuse, alcohol abuse, drug dependency, petrol sniffing, no foetal alcohol syndrome, no youth suicide and very low levels of incarceration. Even in the most remote areas there were high levels of literacy and numeracy and high levels of employment. It is only since the supposedly great reformative referendum of the Sixties and the self-determination era of the Seventies that dysfunction in Aboriginal communities has exploded.

Please let me be equally irrelevant.
I think the bible was an attempt to explain the origin of the world and the people in it.
I must admire the forward thinking of those involved in that undertaking.
They gathered together a series of stories which seemed able to explain everything which happened.
These stories also paved the way for gaining control of a, perhaps, fragmented society.
Mostly by requiring obedience to some superior and exalted intelligence.
Superstition played a big part in the script here.
But they were stories, written by the hand of man.
The problem is that those stories somehow came to be seen as fact, sourced from an infallible intelligence?
And it seems there is no lack of people wanting to see them as such.
The instinct to follow the leader is working overtime here.
And people search them for slight variations of meaning.
And use these 'nuances' to guide them in life.
To base truth on stories is an entirely unproductive venture.
With such unsound basic principles, it is impossible to build a productive and enduring life structure.

I would have started differently.
First there was matter.
Then there was movement.
That introduced random change.
And the blueprint for life is built in to matter.
So eventually intelligent life flourished.
That added planned change to the state of matter.
And so on...

So eventually intelligent life flourished.
Ipso fatso,
Sadly, intelligent life is almost extinct courtesy of the Left & Woke movement ! The pro-Left are hard up spelling the word intelligent but thanks to Grammarly they only just scrape through !