Gentlemen,

I'd like to thank all of you for your contributions
to this discussion. However, I am withdrawing from
it. I have no further wish to continue to argue
with anyone. Instead I would like to call on all
people in our communities to treat each other with
love and respect and to support all those who are
grieving and distressed.

We don't need this conflict to stoke division here.

I look forward to our next discussion.

"Do you mean that the 10 or so security guards at the overnight rave party, who tried their best to protect their people with their pistols at short range and were all killed themselves, are responsible for most 260 deaths?"

I'll go with 'on face value'... 50/50
Half may very well have been killed by Hamas, certainly any civilian that fired back in defence on Oct 7 would've been targeted by them.
I was told about footage of Hamas indiscriminately firing on civilians from the music festival, (and I tend to believe it) but never saw the footage for myself
But indiscriminte fire by Apache AH-64 helicopters more than likely killed the other half.

«It seems a large number of the deaths were from retaliatory fire from the IDF as well as from non-Hamas persons who entered after the Hamas military units.»

'large number'
I'm not sure it would be prudent to try and speculate how many as in a percentage... but both of those claims do have validity

- Not all the hostages were taken by Hamas, some were taken by 'random Gazan opportunists', it may also be that these people (Gazans, but not necessarily Hamas) were also responsible for at least some of the killing.

October 7 testimonies reveal Israel’s military ‘shelling’ Israeli citizens with tanks, missiles
http://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

Dear Critic,

That rave party was the first location to be attacked on October 7th, in total surprise.
There were no Apache helicopters in or around that party, or any soldiers on duty for that matter (only some soldiers on leave who danced there, unarmed).
No aid arrived and the bodies were discovered there many hours after they died.

Gazan civilians came only much later to loot - not in that first wave when at least 260 were murdered in cold blood.

What we do know about the behaviour of Gazan civilians related to that peace party, is that they jeered and spat at the unconscious naked and dying body of Shani Louk, but not before Hamas brought it back to Gaza.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12606553/Female-Israeli-soldier-killed-Hamas-paraded-truck-actually-German-tattoo-artist-30-attending-music-festival-devastated-family-say-nightmare.html

I made an earlier reference to Zionist death squads entering Gaza to liquidate Palestinians. I was poo-hooded by several of the fanatical far right Israeli supporters on the forum. Unfortunately there is now clear evidence that the Zionists are applying genocidal practices towards innocent Palestinians, destroying hospitals, killing women and children!

AC, thanks as always for your links which are giving a true picture of what is happening on the ground in Gaza. The evidence is there, but several here choose not to believe it.

Village idiot,

When I read your post about Zionist death squads I realised it was just another moronic Hamas arse licker with zero regards for facts. If Israel was bent on genocide the casualties would be in the 100s of 1000s not the few 1000 so far.

There is clear evidence that Hamas was using the hospital buildings as bases and command HQs. This is where the war crimes are being committed by homicidal Hamas mass murderers using the women and children as human shields.