It looks as though the house of cards is collapsing!!

"The bad economic news from China keeps coming.

Exports fell 12.4 per cent last month. Between 2012 and 2022 China added $US10 trillion more to its debt load than the US. Youth unemployment is at record levels, even as manufacturers report severe labour shortages. The residential property developers at the heart of China’s long boom look increasingly vulnerable, and local governments who have long relied on a red-hot real estate market for revenue are turning to Beijing with their hands out.

Some look at the troubling statistics and predict that China is headed for a catastrophic market bust. Such forecasts, for now, seem premature. The central government still has a lot of money to throw at its problems, and the increasingly totalitarian state that China is becoming has many policy tools at its disposal."

The rest of the World hits the skids too because the Western mentality greed has become hopelessly dependent on China !

"The central government still has a lot of money to throw at its problems, and the increasingly totalitarian state that China is becoming has many policy tools at its disposal."

So there is an economic problem there or their isn't?
- I'm not sure if you're contracticting yourself or what you're trying to say.

"Youth unemployment is at record levels, even as manufacturers report severe labour shortages."
- That sounds a little contradictory too, tbh...

Economic Pain Is Breaking The West - NATO Summit Disaster
http://youtu.be/Mycp_cyGjI0

I reckon that Albanese will have Australia hitting the skids before China does. China has the sense to continue using cheap energy; Albanese is making our energy dearer, when he is not trying to divide the country racially. What an idiot!

A totalitarian state like China does not need money or any other viable currency - it can simply order its denizens to work harder and eat less. North Korea is already an example of that.

AC,

Unless you have been living under a rock and can't read, this is just the latest bad news from China.

In addition to exports falling 12.4% from June 2022 when China was in covid lockdown, China's debt is $10Tr more than the US over the decade, youth unemployment is about 21% (70% are university graduates) and the factories have a shortage of blue-collar workers.

The Chinese property market, which comprised 29% of the GDP in 2020, has collapsed. Nearly every private developer is going bankrupt leaving $Trillions of debt owed to banks and private individuals and cutting the money supply to local governments.

4 provinces are essentially bankrupt and while China is pouring more money into the economy, it all comes from debt.

And there is plenty more. So yes, China has serious economic problems.

"In addition to exports falling 12.4% from June 2022", That begs the question, if China is not selling, then who is not buying, the answer, countries like AUSTRALIA. What, if China is not selling then they don't need to buy the raw materials to make the goods they're not selling. What countries wont they need to buy from, countries like AUSTRALIA.

Gee, with a trillion dollars of LIBERAL PARTY debt to pay off, over the next 100 years, and recession staring us in the face, maybe its countries like AUSTRALIA who should be worried about economic problems.

AC, this guy has been banging on with his China hate speak of 'economic collapse" ever since he joined the Forum in 2020. The flabby soft Western economies will go to the pack long before China or Russia does. Those countries have withstood great adversities in the past, us soft Westerners will spit the dummy if they as much as threaten to take our 'Fruity Pops' away.

The village idiot is back to disrupt the thread with insults and lies etc. With his $trillion of LABOR PARTY debt etc and his arse kissing of "socialist" tyrants such as Putin and Zi. This is the twit that claimed that China had zero unemployment. No wonder he votes for the gangreens.

SM,

The only one peddling hate speak here is YOU, name calling, village idiot, insults, arse kissing, twit. There is nothing in my one post that insults YOU. You are the one firing up as usual at me for my opinion. Maybe YOU should pull your head in.

Paul,

You are a liar and a fraud. I never used the term "economic collapse" and you accused me of "China hate" yet whine when I call you an arse kisser.

Grow up.

BONHOEFFER’S LETTERS FROM PRISON

Dietrich Bonhoeffer argued that stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice. “One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and prevented by the use of force; against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here. Reasons fall on deaf ears.”

"Facts that contradict a stupid person’s prejudgment simply ..... are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this, the stupid person is self-satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack."

" ......... greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one."

" .........stupidity is in essence not an intellectual defect but a moral one. There are human beings who are remarkably agile intellectually yet stupid ...."

" ...... under certain circumstances, people are made stupid or rather ..... they allow this to happen to them."

(It is apparent) "that every strong upsurge of power, be it of a political or religious nature, infects a large part of humankind with stupidity ..... the power of the one needs the stupidity of the other."

"...... under the overwhelming impact of rising power (some) humans are deprived of their inner independence and, more or less consciously, give up an autonomous position." They don't think independently.

" ... .. the stupid person is often stubborn must not blind us from the fact that he is not independent.in conversation with him (or her) one feels that one is dealing not at all with him (or her) as a person, but with slogans, catchwords, and the like that have taken possession of him (or her)". They are "under a spell"; they have become "a mindless tool", incapable of seeing there own acceptance of evil.

Until they are liberated, "we must abandon all attempts to convince the stupid person".

Dear ttbn,

Good post.

ALBOFLATION

"...Albo’s maniac mass immigration is driving rental inflation and over-consumption via rising house prices, and his total failure to curtail energy cartels has delivered bill shocks. Both are contributing to robust and sticky services inflation." ('Macrobusiness')

China is Australia's largest trading partner and makes up
nearly a third (31%) we're told, of our global trade with
exports totaling $159 billion in 2020.

We're heavily reliant on China markets and China work forces
for a lot of goods in our economy. Australia sells an
enormous amount of coal and iron ore to China. If the Chinese
economy slows down significantly than the demand for our
iron ore and coal will decline and affect commodity prices.

Therefore if China goes "on the skids" it could wreck havoc
on our economy which could see our cost-of-living increase
and affect major industries such as manufacturing, construction,
even retail, to name just a few.

A great deal of manufacturing in Australia relies on components
made overseas - many of which are from China. Therefore what
To China's economy is certainly going to hit us hard.

Let us hope that our economic experts are prepared for this event
and will know how to deal with it.

BONHOEFFER’S LETTERS
ttbn,
Hence my constant stating that Australia's worst enemies are from within !

Indyvidual

They are. Our political class (all) and the 'idiots' mentioned above.

Foxy,

The effects of China's economic problems are already becoming apparent as exports to China are reducing especially for higher-end products like the expensive cuts of meat etc.

Note that Evergrand, the Chinese developer that sparked the property crisis has been liquidated leaving US$81bn of unpaid debt.

Sorry,

Evergrande has not been liquidated, just published losses of US81bn.

The clown will say anything that comes into his head that denigrates CHINA. What AUSTRALIA must avoid is another COALITION style recession like the one imposed on the country by the economically incompetent Morison government. We cannot afford the "drunken sailor" style spending the previous mob embarked on. LABOR are trying to re-establish a sound economic relationship with CHINA, which hopefully will keep our heads above water and avid another recession.

The village idiot/tyrant arse kisser would have you believe that China is a paradise with zero unemployment, pensions and medical care and that it will grow to be a benevolent giant. This is primarily because the village idiot is also a habitual liar and fraud who not only wants to cover up China's human rights abuses, attacks on neighbours etc along with covering up the two senior greens convicted of paedophilia, the racist and violent greens councillor etc.

That Labor and the greens are largely responsible for Labor's $T debt the high inflation and interest rates and the cost of living burns his backside

In my opinion we should have avoided economic ties with China in the first place. China's treatment of the Uighurs and its behavior as a totalitarian state should have disqualified China as a trading partner. 'Pig Iron' Bob sent metal to Japan before WW2. The metal was returned to us in the form of ammunition. IBM and other corporations did business with Hitler. IBM machines were used to keep rack of the numbers of people sent to concentration camps and murdered. It is Quixotic to consider morality in trade. We will suffer economically for it. However, the sufferings of those oppressed by totalitarian states is greater than our economic suffering.

So many varied and good opinions expressed in this
discussion. All are valid (in my opinion). What the
future holds for us - we'll see. I'm concerned about
Taiwan - and China's intentions. Economically, I'm
still hoping that we'll be allright.

That China's economy is in serious trouble is a fact. From the beginning of its modernisation, China has relied on getting western companies to relocate to China in return for access to the Chinese markets.

But that model is now unravelling as western companies beginning to realise that getting access to the Chinese market isn't sufficient compensation for the problems of dealing with the CCP.

Thus, foreign investment in China is in free-fall- down by by 80% in just the last 12 months.

There are some new terms which we'll likely hear more of in the future. One of those is 'de-risking' ie avoiding the risks of being at the mercy of the CCP by relocating to places like Vietnam and India.

As more and more US companies pull out of China its been said that this is the era of deglobalisation. But in reality, its just a new phase of globalisation that excludes China. We in Australia fret about our future if China declines, but that is the wrong attitude. We are already in the process of realigning with China's successors. Look at the 'best of friends' alignment between Albo and India's Modi. India, among others (Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines) are the beneficiaries of the unravelling of the CCP model.

An even more profound indication is that the US is relocating its economic system to North America. In recent days it was observed that Mexico just overtook China as the USA's major trading partner. Trump's America-First policy led to the so-called New NAFTA agreement which is now seeing an alignment of economic interests between the US and Mexico to the benefit of each. As this grow, the US needs China less and less and China has nowhere to turn. Equally Europe is decoupling for China.

Adam Smith observed "There's a lot of ruin in a nation" and that is so of China. Things aren't going to fall apart overnight. But as the population goes into free-fall and rapidly ages, Mark Steyn's prediction from 20-odd years ago that China would get old before it got rich, looks more and more accurate.

david f

Yes! Getting mixed up with a totalitarian, Communist country was shameful to say the least. The greedy corporates and the stupid politicians naively thought that trade and capitalism would make China like us got it wrong, as they usually do.

China is worse, and we are getting to be more like them.

The only thing that China has copied from the West is the vacuuming of more wealth from the bottom to the top. The 'lifting of the masses out of poverty' is a lie.

Even the much vaunted 'middle class' is only about 12% of the population. Two thirds of Chinese people are still peasants, farm labourers, industrial workers, who will never make it to the middle class. They work in the unregulated 'informal economy'. And, minorities continue to be slaves or just locked up, to keep them out of the way.

Outside of Beijing and the big cities, China is a flash back to forty years ago, where people barely eke out a living. People can't move to the cities without a permit. Those who get to the cities can work 60 hour weeks to be paid less than $100.

Much work has been in the frenzied construction business, but with the recent drop in population growth, it's back to the villages and extreme poverty for thousands and thousands of people.

The economy is described as 'classic Marxist exploitation'.

Writer, Nan Chen, says that Communist China has "skipped" the part of capitalism that in the West produced a well off middle class, and gone straight to the stage of extraordinary productivity, but with "disproportionately distributed wealth like the contemporary United States". ('China’s Missing Middle Class).

Australian politicians have been fooled by Communist China; they continue to be fooled by Communist China, and many of them are busting to visit Communist China.

Daily Telegraph headline:

"Housing affordability crisis: Buyers in China snap up $8m of Australian property every day".

Hi David,

I totally agree we should ban trade with all countries accused of human rights violations to some degree. Of our top 15 trading partners the following 14 have been named as in the past 10 years as being violators of human rights.

China
Japan
South Korea
India
Taiwan
Vietnam
United States
Indonesia
Malaysia
Hong Kong (separate from China)
Singapore
Netherlands
Thailand
Germany
New Zealand is not on the list but some in my Maori family accuse the NZ government of violating their human rights over continued state occupation of confiscated Maori land.

Other notables, not considered a top 15 trading partner but accused as well include; Argentina, Brazil, Fiji, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Philippines, PNG, Sri Lanka, Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel, United Kingdom, Denmark, Norway, Ukraine, Spain, Ireland, France, Add most of Africa, South America, Asia, Middle East, the only continent that seems free of human rights violations is Antarctica, the penguins are safe for the moment, maybe! This is not a complete list, there are many more, but that will do for now.

BTW Australia is also on the list for human rights violations, re children abused while in detention.

Where should we start?

Dear Paul,

Where should we start?

1) With a YES vote for the Voice to Parliament.

2) Have Ukraine made a member of the EU and NATO.

3) Keep allowing Penny Wong to deal with China.

Dear Paul,

We start by cutting off relations with the worst. We and no other country are perfect, but China is near the bottom when it comes to human rights. It would be unreasonable to demand perfection. We are not perfect. However, we are trying to make up for it. Many Australians recognise the Australian record toward Aborigines, refugees from persecution and non-whites. The Voice is a way to make up for the past even though we cannot erase the past. There is no sign that the government of China recognises its continuing oppression. The US still bestrides the world. However, it is abolishing segregation and is trying to make up for the past in other ways. There is an ongoing struggle in the USA between those who are trying to compensate for the past and those who would restore it. In China the oppressors control.

Albanese and Penny Wong's approach towards China
is a good one. Co-operate where we can and disagree
where we must. This is far more constructive
than the former government's approach of - aooperate
where we must and disagree when we can.

Albanese and Penny Wong are doing well by letting others
lead when criticism is warranted and by showing maximum
restraint. Restraint is not a display of weakness - but
maturity - and it is difficult.

Australia must be proactive, persistent, and make clear
to China that a stable, mutually beneficial relationship is
in the interests of both countries.

Penny Wong's approach is lip service and virtue signalling.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Penny Wong's approach is more nuanced and refrains from the
pile on with Washington at every opportunity.

China is well aware of Australia's strong security alliance
with the US. There's no need for Australia to talk it up
every 5 minutes as other governments have done.

Part of the problem in making predictions about China's future or drawing conclusions about China's present or past is that you really can't trust any of the data put out by the Chinese authorities.

eg.... http://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/19/world/asia/china-covid-data-toll.html

China has been saying that about 85000 died from Covid. But following an inadvertent (and quickly withdrawn) release of Covid data from one province, it is likely that the actual number is closer to 1.5 million. And that's at the low end of possible guesses.

Foxy,

Penny Wong nuanced seriously?

Vacuous and insubstantial is more like it.

Hi again David,

You said; "We start by cutting off relations with the worst" Agree, now who are the worst 10 dressed people in Australia in order? Its a list a bit like that, my Tamil friend will tell us India heads the list, my Chinese Malay friend will tell you its a no brainer Malaysia is number one for sure, given their treatment of ethic Chinese like him, did someone say China, according to America, and a couple on here, China tops the list, but America is on list anyway, maybe they should top the list, given their human rights record on blowing up people. If you speak to a passing Palestinian he'll tell you Israel wins hands down. Closer to home Indonesia is the topper. And we haven't even got Myanmar on the all time list, Ireland hummmm!, what's the Irish been up to, on the list they go! Do you see a problem. BTW The Minining Federations wants China exempt from the List, The National Farmers Federation, they want no one on the list who buys wheat, meat, corn, potatoes, bottles of wine, cheese etc, etc. How bad can a wine and cheese eater be?

How about; Part of the problem in making predictions about China's future or drawing conclusions about China's present or past is that you really can't trust any of the data put out by the CIA. Silly Old Joe or Captain America!

Paul,

As usual Paul leaps to the defence of the totalitarians by claiming any unwanted data is merely CIA propaganda.

But in this case, it was data published, probably accidentally since it was quickly removed, on the website of one of China's provincial governments. But Paul will ignore that fact because....well just because.

mhaze, can you give me a link to that accurate data? I'll have a look.

I disagree with the Biblical saying of Jesus: "let he without sin cast the first stone."

That would mean nobody or no country could call any other to account. The perfect is the enemy of the good. We imperfect humans can still make judgments. Has the country tried to compensate for wrongs it has committed? Has the country admitted wrongs it has committed? Is there a mechanism by which victims of those acts or their descendants can bring the perpetrators or those who benefited from their acts to account?

david f

I agree with you. People make judgments every day of their lives. They would not last long if they did not.

None of us are faultless and judging a person does
not define who they are. It defines who you are.

The United Nations came into being in 1945 shortly after
the end of World War II. The stated purpose was to bring peace
to all nations of the world. Of course this is not easy task
because no nation is willing to give up its sovereignty.
However - the world would be worse of without the UN - and the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Regarding calling countries to account - let us not forget
the International Criminal Court ( ICC) which investigates
and where warranted, tries individuals charged with the
gravest crimes of concern to the international community:
genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and the
crime of aggression.

The Court participates in a global fight to end impunity, and
through international criminal justice, the Court aims to hold
those responsible accountable for their crimes and to help
prevent these crimes from happening again.

Paul asks: "can you give me a link to that accurate data? I'll have a look."

I already posted the link. Interesting that you rejected it without ever seeing it.

Here's more data from China that you will somehow conclude is CIA propaganda. Quite how the CIA got the Chinese Commerce Ministry to agree to support their propaganda is something one can only guess at. </sarc>

http://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/19/china-says-trade-faces-extremely-severe-situation-blames-geopolitics.html

PS they also use that word 'de-risking' that I advised above would become more prevalent over the next few years.

It doesn't matter SM, China has a much larger population and thus it's ability to get out of the situation it's in will be easier.
It will keep adding people to their middle class, while the west's middle class moves into poverty.
- Least of all the fact that China has a huge manufacturing base and has many things the world wants, is world leader in many if not most of the worlds technologies and the fact that western economies are sinking, while the developing world is growing fast, and abandoning the West.

America is going to be left with a lot of worthless dollars the world no longer wants or needs and will not be able to pay it's 1 trillion a year debt obligations, which it has already been going hat in hand to China with which whom it wishes to buy its US treasuries and fund it's debts.

The US is a house of cards, ready to crash down around its ankles.

Couldn't even defend Ukraine.
Has no chance of defending Taiwan.

I hear the blame game has started.
Ukraine blames the West for not supplying air-power
While the US blames Ukraine for not fighting with combined arms tactics the way it trained them to.
(Yet it would never do so without air superiority)
Problem was when Ukraine tried the US tactics, it took horrendous losses.

Told you all a year or two back the US was a toothless tiger.
Their economic outlook is not that much better.

Who do you think is buying all the cheap oil and gas, and soon the grain as well?
Hell the Chinese even used to buy all our plastic we'd throw in landfill, make new products and sell them back to us.
They even keep our economy afloat with their imports.
So if China does hit the skids (which it won't)
- Then so do we, ya dumbass.

Nah mhaze,

You only supply a speculative article from the American web site 'The New York Times' and its behind a pay wall. There's nothing directly from a mysterious Chinese Provence contained in it, just vague hearsay.

I want to see the names, times and data about an unnamed Chinese Provence where YOU claim they put out information about Covid which was at odds with the official CCP line. The next link you provide gives nothing about Covid, but is concerned with economics. BTW You don't seem to be able to even name the Provence.

Oh dear Paul, do you want me to supply the spoon to fed you with as well?

Unless you've read more than 10 NYT articles this month you can get through the paywall - if you wanted to.

Still here you go....

The province is Zhejiang. They report 171000 cremations for the first quarter of 2023 against 72000 for the same period in 2022 ie an increase of 99000 during the height of the covid panic in China. This is in one province the total population of which is 65 million or about 5% of all China.

Here's the original document which was archived prior to the Chinese authorities taking it down.... http://archive.md/pYEKF (use Google translate).

" I want to see the names, times and data about an unnamed Chinese Provence "

No you don't. you want to pretend no such data exists against those you adhere to.

" The next link you provide gives nothing about Covid, but is concerned with economics"

Do tell? Yes I was showing other data about the decline of China.

Well mhaze, doesn't that tell us a lots, its not in English, its written in Chinese. Could be the menu from 'The Golden Dragon' for all we know.

Yep, over my 10 limit for the 'New York Times'. So, have you got anything else or is that it, all you've got is American sources with their clap-trap. What was that from your other American propaganda site CNBC.

If you look into the Biden / Burisma / FBI / Informant / Laptop / Trump / Indictment / Elections fiasco
- You'll find out that the US is THE MOST CORRUPT COUNTRY in the world.

The FBI had an informant spilling the beans on the Biden / Burisma corruption prior to the last election and they sat on that info.
They should've been investigating themselves, but instead they impeached Trump when he asked about having it investigated.
They had the Hunter Biden laptop, which contained data that confirmed the informants allegations regarding Biden corruption.
It wasn't just Bribery, it was coercion and paying off Ukrainians to remove an investigator looking into Biden / Burisma corruption, and the FBI had all the info, confirmable, long prior to the election and withheld it.
They willfully sought to keep the information from Trump and the public, (spying on him during his run up to the 2016 election as well) They contacted facebook, twitter and youtube to scrub any stories regarding the Biden laptop story under the context of Russian propaganda.

The FBI kept information from the public, helped remove Trump and install a known corrupt Biden and censored social media.

Here's a great rundown of some of the dirt.
http://www.youtube.com/live/aw5rzezyeYE?feature=share

All these European bum sniffing vassal states...
(US blew up Nordstream and Olaf Shultz is too weak to say a damn thing.)
- All following the directions of a corrupt man that should not be President in the first place, and was already known to be corrupt.

Hi AC,

Unfortunately mhaze is just another 'Useful Idiot' who is easily sucked in by American propaganda. He's believes a so called document written in Chinese, a language he would be clueless with, is "evidence" of millions of deaths from Covid in China. What he doesn't realise is China had a very effective Covid vaccine long before anything similar was marketed by Big Pharma in the West.

So Paul, that's a 'yes' to me supplying the spoon to spoon-feed you?

Fair dinkum, you have more ways to avoid seeing what you don't want to see than you can shake a stick at. I did say you'd need to use Google translation to read the Chinese document. But alas that only works if you actually want to see the truth, eh?

Here's another article on the issue.
http://www.irishtimes.com/world/asia-pacific/2023/07/18/china-deletes-data-on-covid-19-deaths/

I'll be interested to see what device you use to not see this one - "oh its from Ireland and I can't read Irish"

"What he doesn't realise is China had a very effective Covid vaccine long before anything similar was marketed by Big Pharma in the West."

That's just precious Paul. Is there nothing about the CCP you won't fall for. Still, you'd hope that they did have a vaccine before everyone else, given that they'd created the virus in the first place and had it genome before the rest of the world even knew it existed. Sadly even then they couldn't create a vaccine that had any real efficacy.

"If you look into the Biden / Burisma / FBI / Informant / Laptop / Trump / Indictment / Elections fiasco
- You'll find out that the US is THE MOST CORRUPT COUNTRY in the world."

Well there's no question that the current US political elite are the most corrupt, by a long margin, that ever existed in US history.

But the most corrupt in the world? Clearly you've never tried to do business in the Philippines or Russia or Hungary or Cuba.

Dear mhaze,

I am beginning to appreciate you.

Dear Paul1405,

There is a corruptions perception index from least to most corrupt.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

It lists 180 countries.

Denmark, Finland and New Zealand are tied for least corrupt.

Australia is tied with Belgium and Japan for 18

Chile and the US are tied for 27.

Ukraine is 122.

Russia is 136.

The above roughly corresponds with the perceptions I have.

mhaze,

You claim this "document" is evidence of mass Covid deaths in China. The "document" is an unsigned sheet for the province of Zhejiang for the first quarter 2023, giving numbers for various categories of people. You wouldn't know that because you can't read Chinese, so what's your point? Besides the CIA or some ultra right wing outfit told you something else and like the 'Useful Idiot' you are, you believed it. I wouldn't doubt the Chinese fudge figures all the time, for political reasons, just as America does, but I don't play the part of the dupe like you do, and believe whatever propaganda is fed me.

Oh dear Paul. Use Google Translate or your favourite translator to read the document. Or alternatively, if you prefer to avoid the truth, do exactly what you're doing

mhaze,

You are the one who came up with the unreadable "document", why should I have to waste my time correcting something you present. Got a better version? I told you what it is, it's a list of categories of people in the Provence of Zhejiang. Don't know if its accurate or even authentic. Who produced the thing in the first place? Can't find a name on it. What about you tell me who produced it?

It is estimated that 37 million girls were aborted after the one-child policy was introduced in 1980. The imbalance between the sexes could pose an existential threat to Xi's China dream and, perhaps the stability of Communist China.

The male imbalance is far greater in India than in China. Of greater concern is the imbalance between productive young, and non-productive old people. Australia has such a problem with an ageing population as does China.

Yes Paul, I get it. Anything detrimental to the reverence you hold the CCP is to be ignored. Anything written in English is to be ignored because its really just CIA propaganda, dontchaya know.

And anything actually originating in China is in Chinese and is unreadable to the clueless Paul. So that's also false.

Hey presto! Nothing is ever seen that is detrimental to China and therefore, in Paul-land, the CCP is exemplary.

And then, one day, when it all unravels (as it did for the USSR apologists who used the same tactics to never see anything detrimental to the socialist paradise) they look askant as to what happened.

mhaze,

Didn't you read where I said; "I wouldn't doubt the Chinese fudge figures all the time, for political reasons" how does that equate with you rubbish; "Nothing is ever seen that is detrimental to China and therefore, in Paul-land, the CCP is exemplary."

You posted a link to something unsigned, unsubstantiated written in Chinese. You expect me to waste my time translating it. BTW just answer the question; Provide evidence as to who was the author? If you can't do that what's the value of it. I could re-post some of your annoying anonymous anti Labor diatribes and claim they are proof of government failure. Same story.

Paul, ya dill.

It was on a government website. The author was the provincial government.

Paul just scrounging around trying to find some reason to not see what he doesn't want to be true.

What's next? " mhaze can't even tell me if the author wore boxers or briefs. It must be all CIA propaganda".

mhaze,

You being a devout Trumpster, and a sycophantic American toady, can you point to the figure of 171000 cremations in your "document" supplied. While you are at it, supply the name of the person who prepared it in the first instance. Could it have been a case of "fat finger" by some Chinese public servant? Don't know. Maybe that's why they took it down, have you considered the "document" may have been incorrect in the first place. Don't know. Being a devout Trumpster and sycophantic America toady, you can't bring yourself to questioning any American propaganda.

I'm not entirely sure he's even really a Trump supporter at heart.
He seems more like a Republican rino supporter.
More aligned with the ideologies of Mitch McConnell and Lindsay Graham than Trump.
Trump would never have wanted war with Russia, and he probably isn't too keen on Ukraine either.

Paul, clueless as usual, writes: "can you point to the figure of 171000 cremations in your "document" supplied".

The last line on the document's table reads (in translation):

Column 1 - "Number of cremated remains"
Column 2 - "in 10,000"
Column 3 - 17.1

FYI 17.1 x 10,000 = 171000.

Paul calls it American propaganda. Somehow those wascally yanks convinced the Chinese to post propaganda on their own website.

AC writes: "He seems more like a Republican rino supporter."

Not the slightest evidence for that...but we all know AC and evidence are mutually exclusive.

Yep, a Trump supporter from wayback. But not the fable Trump that people like Paul imagines, but instead the actual Trump and the MAGA policies. The Trump that sought to extract the US from all foreign engagements, bring jobs and manufacturing back to north America and to champion the cause of the US working class of all colours. Paul et al won't understand that

mhaze,

You are not telling the complete truth are you, you altered what is written in second column to read "10,000" when the wording is "10,000 tools". Just out of interest why would the Chinese refer to "tools" and not bodies or corpses. Could it have been a draft copy incorrectly prepared by some minor functionary, and accidentally posted. You still can not name who was the instigator of the "document", all you have is an Irish newspaper report. Anyone can fake a document, even the bumbling fools at the CIA.

Paul,

Oh you did workout how to do translations. But only when it suits, it seems.

Use a different translator and get a different result. I showed you reports from the NYT and an Irish paper which you assiduously avoided. But there are dozens of other reports on the same issue. Whatismore, its been pointed out that this calculation using this leaked information is just one of many different calculations using different criteria which all come to the conclusion that the death toll was in the 1.5-2 million mark. And (and please sit down for this!!) not all of them are from the US!! But the CCP says differently and that's all that matters to Paul.

"The Trump that sought to extract the US from all foreign engagements, bring jobs and manufacturing back to north America and to champion the cause of the US working class of all colours."

No disagreements there.

I'm staying out of the chinese covid discussion.
I think the world would be a better place if the world stopped it's gang mentality and individual nations stayed out of others internal affiairs, with an exception that if an issue negatively impacts other nations, then they have a right and a duty to their own citizens to address it.

As far as covid deaths in China are concerned I hope they were minimised as much as possible and the lockdowns were not imposed more than what was necessary.
- And that people had their own choice to take an untested vaccine or not themselves.
But I know that's probably not true, but we didn't get things right either.
- Probably no country did.

I was more opposed to the vaccine, than the lockdowns.
I never even considered taking the vaccine, and may have chosen imprisonment over taking it had I had to make that choice.

But the lockdowns I accepted as at least somewhat necessary, but I always held the opinion that lockdowns within the country were a failure of our leaders to quarantine our country from an external contagion in the first instance.

The way they put infected up in hotels with shared ventilation systems in the capital cities was ludicrous, and an accident waiting to happen.

mhaze,

Should I use the mhaze translator via the CIA, and get a different result, is that what you want me to do? No, I'll leave that up to you, the 'Useful Idiot' and all round American toady. Your evidence that China had 1.5 to 2 million Covid deaths in the first quarter 2023 is rater flimsy at best You start with an unsubstantiated reference to state cremations in a minor province of China. which may or may not be true, then you extrapolate from that a figure to cover the whole of China, and then stretch it to claim it as Covid deaths in all China. Your evidence wouldn't stand up in court.

p/s As a devout Trumpster, you claimed Covid was no more than a minor irritant, a bit of a sniffle. You and your man The Dangerous Doctor Donald claimed it could be remedied with a dose of 'Pine-O-Clean! Now you are claiming it killed millions of Chinese this year alone. I tell you who was responsible for millions of deaths, it was your man The Dangerous Doctor Donald through his incompetence in dealing with the pandemic in America.

Anyway, I'm going fishing this morning for fish not Chinese!

Paul,

You really don't have a clue about what's happening in China and are so busy kissing Xi's arse that all you can do is troll.

Of course, both sides lie, for their own reasons.

China has clearly lied about the number of Covid deaths which have been somewhere around 20 times greater than the official admitted death rate. Those who have been able to look clearly at this have known about the massive underreporting for several years. I recall writing in these pages back in 2020 that, even then, China was underreporting its death toll by orders of magnitude.

Then again, the US has also been misreporting its numbers from the outset also. New information coming out of the CDC and several other agencies shows that the US overreported its Covid deaths by about 30%.

How? Well they had a policy of reporting anyone who died within 30 days of getting the dreaded Chinese virus as a Covid death. On further consideration they've now come to understand that that was hopelessly wrong.

Why? Well firstly hospitals received higher payments for handling a Covid patient. But primarily because they needed to exaggerate the pandemic in order to get Trump. As we know, the need to defeat the working-class revolt led by Trump meant that all issues of ethics and good governance could be ditched.

My point in initially raising the Chinese deception was just to show that we really can't trust any number coming from CCP unless it can be independently verified. But it pays to remember that we can't always trust the numbers coming out of western governments either. Remember how the Commonwealth Games were going to cost a mere $2.6billion? Were the people who invented that number lying or incompetent? We'll probably never know.

mhaze,

What you say is basically true, as I said previously China will lie for political reasons, America will also lie for the same reasons, both for internal and international consumption. The war in Ukraine, like all wars, this war is massively exaggerated by All sides, "Truth is the first causality of war".

Hey shadowminister
"You really don't have a clue about what's happening in China and are so busy kissing Xi's arse that all you can do is troll."

You get your info from people who don't live there and who are not friends of China, so what do you expect?

The input controls the output.
If your input is from China haters what do you think the output will be you muppet?

How Bad is the Chinese Economy? Walk Through Shanghai Reveals Truth
http://youtu.be/i_sl-8cgA1g

This American has been living there for 25 years.
"If you want to find out what China is really like in 2023, then this is the video for you"

AC you are full of it.

Most of the information I get is sourced from official Chinese statistics and publications and people that live and work in China and certainly not from sources that are "unfriendly" to China, and for anyone following international news and business, none of this is new.

Dear David F.,

«I disagree with the Biblical saying of Jesus: "let he without sin cast the first stone."»

Jesus taught his disciples individually, as per the specific circumstances versus their own spiritual position. There is no reason to think that he intended his words to be published and become universal teachings for everyone at all times and every situation.

In that particular Biblical situation, a woman was caught in the act of adultery and was about to be stoned. If you disagree with Jesus, then does it mean that you would like adulterous women to be stoned?

Could Jesus tell the surrounding Pharisees straight in the face and in direct opposition to the words of the Torah, that no one ought to be stoned for adultery?
If he did, then he himself would have been stoned then and there!

Instead he achieved the same with clever words - the woman was not stoned, while at the same time he also made his opponents turn in and become introspective: a win-win solution.

As I understand it, being "without sin" pertains to the moment, not to past actions. We all did some wrong things in the past, but once one truly repents, even though they still have to face the consequences of their previous misdeeds, they are no longer carrying any sin.

Finally, there is a vast difference between stoning people and stopping to trade with them. The former is an active aggression while the latter is passive non-action.

I don't believe that humans have a moral mandate to punish other humans, but passively avoiding the company of evil is a great virtue, thus yes, all trade with China ought to be stopped.

For the others who listed other wrongful countries I say, yes, try to avoid trading with them too, if you can. And if you are unwilling to give up their products, services and cheap prices, then OK, that's human, but count this as your weakness rather than try to justify it.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I prefer that nobody should be stoned for any reason. It is a cruel and unusual punishment, and the 8th amendment to the US Constitution which I prefer to the words attributed to Jesus forbids cruel and unusual punishment.

Dear David F.,

Indeed, I wouldn't think that you would like any people stoned for any reason, and neither do I.
The difference between us seems to be that I do not require some human-made constitution to oppose all human-made punishments, usual or unusual.

I don't believe that Jesus wanted to punish anyone either, he just could not say so explicitly at the time - the Pharisees tried to trap him, so he was walking a tight rope. The Torah prescribes certain punishments and Jesus could not afford to be openly seen as someone who disregards the Torah.

At the end of the day, people who like to cause pain to others will find some verse or another to excuse it, be that from the Torah, from the Quran or from the American constitution.

Hi Yuyutsu

“For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Very broad and open to interpretation. Nether sin nor death are clearly defined within the Bible. The one example above from Romans could have several meanings and outcomes. I am finding in fellowship with Christians, all unlike myself committed practising chaps, much contained within the Bible is open to conjecture and applied relative to today's prevailing thinking and social norms.

I recently posed the question; "Was it Christian to burn people at the stake for heresy in 1523? The response from the brethren ranged from an emphatic "no", to a "possibly", no one out rightly agreed it was totally Christian act. In the context of the time I argued that is was indeed Christian to burn people at the stake in 1523. I based that on the prevailing interpretation of the Bible at that time.

Dear Paul,

It all depends on how you understand the term "Christian", is it:

1) A follower of Jesus Christ.
2) A follower of the Jewish Nazarene sect and what historically became of it.
3) A follower of the Bible.
4) ?

The above are different.

To understand the original meaning of the words of saints and sages, one needs a living tradition, a live lineage or chain that connects them to the source. Unfortunately I am not aware of any such chain in the Christian tradition - maybe there is but I am not aware of it.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I prefer the US Constitution with all its flaws to the Bible, Koran, Tripitaka or any sacred book. The men who wrote the Constitution did not in general have the arrogance to claim they were inspired by a deity.

Eventually, the Constitution got around to freeing slaves. That outrageous document, the Bible, still hasn't come around to condemning slavery, and it won't. Unlike the Constitution you can't amend it. You can only mistranslate it.

“blessed are the cheesemakers” is “not meant to be taken literally, it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.” A bit like that, misinterpretation can have consequences.