One thousand plus shipments of Chinese solar panels have been stalled by U.S Customs since last June because of a suspicion that the panels were made by forced labour.

The panels in question are freely available in Australia. The Socialists said that they would not have a bar of "modern slavery"; but the Americans are doing something about it, with their Act, 'The Uyghur Forced Labor Protection Act'.

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute has found that around 80,000 people have been assigned to forced labour groups in China. (Menzies
Research Centre).

America has never engaged in slavery, and they're not about to start now! I'm sure there is a political component in 'The Uyghur Forced Labour Protection Act'. Physical slavery might have mostly gone but economic slavery is alive and well in United States.

Its a fact of life, that much of the prosperity we in the West enjoy is due to the economic exploration of people in the third world. You should remember that the next time you purchase a pair of Bangladeshie made undies from K-Mart. Maybe we need 'The K-Mart Forced Labour Protection Act'.

Stuff from the far right 'Australian Strategic Policy Institute' and the 'Menzies Mob' may not necessarily be unbiased when it comes to all thing Chinese.

As I have observed before, Foxy's yapping lapdog, Paul 1405, likes to have 'references' so that he can call them names. Bugger the topic, just spew drunken abuse, and generally play the retard.

ttbn,

Where's the name calling? Far Right is now name calling, no its just a fact. The only name calling I see here is from you, with the disparaging "lapdog" tag, and insulting claim of "drunken abuse".

ttbn,

Why are you calling Paul "Foxy's lap dog?"
Why bring me into it?
But then I guess if you think he's my "lap do?"
What does that make you? "Foxy's attack dog?"

Not nice. Not nice at all.
Your obsession with me is again coming through on this forum.

Graham are you reading this?
Think it's fair?

Yes Foxy,

He calls me a "retard" amazingly I was once suspend for calling another a "nincompoop" this guy can come out of right field and throw abuse with total impunity, and lots of it. I don't care, the other day he told an admitted 97 year old poster he should soon find out if there a god or not, I see that as abuse as well, abuse takes many forms.

BTW, he does have a fixation with you. Strange, oh well.

Think it's fair?
Foxy,
No but neither is your & Paul's sarcasm in many of your posts when you're cornered. Most of us are sarcastic a lot of times but you two are definitely the main offenders.

indyvidual,

Sarcasm is one thing in response to someone's post.
That's fair.
But personal attacks without any provocation is
totally uncalled for. I didn't even make a comment
on this discussion - yet ttbn still chose to attack
me as he's always done. It appears that I am his
obsession - check his posting record.

Foxy

Why don't you email Graham directly and ask if disagreeing with your constant nagging is "unfair"?

Go on. Do it. Make it official. Ask Graham if my posts are unacceptable.

Thanks to the super-egos and childishness of Paul1405 and Foxy, there will be no discussion of the subject. I'm not going to bother starting a thread again - which is undoubtedly what they want.

Paul just has to try to belittle people, and Foxy is so self-obsessed and on the alert for any slights against herself that she will talk tripe until the cows come home. She seems to live her entire life through the internet: which is a bad enough trait in the young, but bizarre in an old sheila.

Hi ttbn,
In regards to Pauls comment, I may not support the Greens, and have historically sat at the exact opposite end of the political spectrum on polices, but I agree with everything he said in his first response.

- And I'd be surprised if the things they're stating about the Uyghur situation is as bad as what they're making things out to be.

Look at what the US has done in Syria.
- Annexed land and turned it into a pile of rubble, and not only that they aim to keep it that way.

Dana Stroul, Biden official, boasts that Washington "owns" one third of Syria
http://youtu.be/FSE3FWKFp4g
Emphasis 'maintain sanctions" + "prevent them rebuilding" means 'ensure their perpetual poverty'

When the US acts like this, an attitude that is a part of it's very soul, then it has no right to point the finger at anyone else on any issue.
- Too busy spending hundreds of billions of dollars on regime changes and foreign wars (at the expense of it's own citizens) to even look after it's own bloody country.

The Nordstream pipeline attack was an act of war against it's own allies, for which Biden should be impeached and everyone involved prosecuted.
The environmental impact for that willful act of destruction is equal to a million cars emissions for an entire year.
- And you want to stop the Uyghur's making solar panels?
What about when the West has iphones manufactured in China, and the factories have suicide nets?
Is the West not built upon the exploitation and harm of others?
The Ohio train derailment is the biggest environmental disaster in US history, and they were arresting reporters to cover it up.
Is their climate change rhetoric not proven to be blatent hypocricy when it blows up gas piplines in Europe, wants Germans to freeze and pay 8 times the gas price to increase their own profits, as well as stealing their industrial base?

The US has mastered being at war during peacetimes.
Why invade another country an risk your own military when you can just threaten, blackmail and coduct regime changes without the cost of military intervention, unless absolutely necessary?
America finds a weakness specifically so it can cause civil unrest, as a matter of policy.
They will play up an adversaries shortcoming which often they themselves had a part in creating, and play down any of their adversaries successes.

This is what the UN Human Rights Commissioner said when she went their last year to report on the situation.
- Read it, and then she was threatened and forced to change her position / step down because what she said wasn't in line with the Western narrative.

http://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/05/statement-un-high-commissioner-human-rights-michelle-bachelet-after-official

Poverty alleviation and the eradication of extreme poverty, 10 years ahead of its target date, are tremendous achievements of China. The introduction of universal health care and almost universal unemployment insurance scheme go a long way in ensuring protection of the right to health and broader social and economic rights. China’s efforts in support of the multilateral 2030 Agenda and the Sustainable Development Goals, both at home and internationally, are also valued. We stressed the importance of advancing gender parity and appropriate geographical distribution.

Over the years, there have been important legislative and judicial reforms. On gender equality, I welcome revision of the Law on Protecting Women’s Rights and Interests, which should bring about several improvements for protection of women’s rights. I also commend the recent reform of the Civil Code that introduced provisions on sexual harassment as well as the anti-domestic violence law that provides for restraining orders to protect women and children at risk. Of course, as in every country, implementation is key, so it will be important for the authorities to be vigilant in that regard and respond to concerns about how the law is applied in practice. I would like to see more women at all levels of political representation, and have encouraged businesses to create the conditions for more women at the top as well.

[Cont]

[Cont]
I welcome China’s stated aim of ensuring quality development, closely linked to strengthening the rule of law and respect for human rights. This is formulated in the Human Rights Action Plan of China and other policy documents. My team had in-depth discussions on how national legislation and practices must reflect international human rights laws and standards, particularly in relation to law enforcement and judicial procedures, and we look forward to continuing to share our expertise with the Government and judiciary.

The commitment in the Human Rights Action Plan of China to enforce more rigorous procedures for reviewing capital sentences and implement a more stringent mechanism for reporting and reviewing death penalty cases is also welcome. It is important to issue data on the death penalty, and I do hope China will join the growing international momentum towards abolition of the death penalty.

In my discussions with senior officials, the themes of development, peace and security arose in every meeting. Of course, for development, peace and security to be sustainable, it needs to be inclusive and rooted in protection of human rights.

AC

Well, if you want to identify with Paul 1405, that's your business. But there is no need to tell me about it, because I couldn't care less what you think.

ttbn,

You suggest that I report you to Graham?

It won't change anything.

And I don't want to upset your already fragile
mental state and obsession with me.

Take care.

So, I won't be struck off because Foxy knows quite well Graham has better things to think about than her self-regard, and she will go on waffling and advertising for Ockernese and Socialism in general, no matter what the fools who think that they can reason with a full-blown narcissist say to her in the future. She makes a good brick wall to practise their tennis shots on, I suppose.

For me, it's back to my own opinions, although it's getting harder and harder to find something worth having an opinion on, with the same old people saying the same old things.

Hey ttbn,
"Well, if you want to identify with Paul 1405, that's your business. But there is no need to tell me about it, because I couldn't care less what you think."

- That attitude will surely only result in others having the same thoughts about you.

I don't sides with anyone, I don't follow any kind of gang mentality.
I make my arguments based on the merits of the topic in question.
Often this aligns with the sentiments of others, and often it doesn't, but I always think and judge things for myself - and try to stand up for what I think is right.

I'm not against you, not against Paul, not even against Foxy despite the fact she sometimes goes out of her way to get under my skin.
I respect you all as co-citizens of our country, and respect all of your rights to voice your opinion.

Chinese people making solar panels... pfft.
It's about time Australia stopped concerning itself with human rights issues in foreign countries.
- Not our country, not our problem.

Meanwhile...

Is the US stationing nuclear-armed B52 bombers in Australia?
Making us a nuclear target in the event of a war with China?

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/us-nuclear-armed-bomber-visits-allowed-under-australian-treaty-obligations-20230215-p5ckrs.html

American B-52 bombers armed with nuclear warheads could rotate through Australia without breaching treaty obligations, the nation’s most senior defence public servant has indicated.

The Australian public would never be informed whether such aircraft are carrying nuclear weapons under the so-called US policy of “warhead ambiguity” in which it neither confirms nor denies if particular forms of military equipment are nuclear-armed.

While adamantly refusing to address hypothetical scenarios, Foreign Minister Penny Wong said: “The responsible way of handling this is to recognise that the US has a ‘neither confirm nor deny position’ which we understand and respect.”

Theses people want us to be prepared for a war with China, are they insane?
That's like the New Zealand going to war with United States.
The only possible outcome is our complete annihilation.

'Are We Ready For War': Sky News investigates Australia's dire military position amid growing threat from China
http://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/are-we-ready-for-war-sky-news-investigates-australias-dire-military-position-amid-growing-threat-from-china/news-story/001fd2008115f7851877653825b82ca3

I don't want to go to war with China over Taiwan or the human rights of the Uyghurs. Both our parties support the war against China position.
Democrasy my butt, I want a choice, I want to support neutrality and what's best for Australia, which is NO BLOODY WAR with our largest trading partner in the first place.

Bakhmut... coming to a local town near you real soon.
Say goodbye to your loved ones, for American hegemony and profits.

Insanity.

ttbn,

My not reporting you has nothing to do with Graham or my
supposed "self regard". It has to do with my genuine
concern of your mental health and why you are still
persisting with your derogatory comments directed at me.

Is your self-esteem at an old time low that attacking me
and others makes you feel somehow superior?

Well rest-assured the position of superiority is all yours
on this forum. You are welcome to the crown.

I have no wish to compete with you or anyone else. I'm
just happy to express my opinions - and if they get up
anyone's nose - that's something over which I have no
control. Because perhaps their opinions get up my nose.
It's a two-way street, or it should be.

I've told you previously - you are under no
obligation to read what I post or comment on my postings.
And if you don't like my opinion of you - you can always
improve.

I would certainly be very glad if you kept your promises to
ignore me. But I realize that you can't.
You accuse me of narcissim yet you're the one displaying the
narcisstic tendencies of lacking the ability to understand
and care about other people's feelings. You seem to have
a very high sense of your own opinions and you attack all
those who disagree with you like Paul and Armchair Critic.

Unfortunately I'm your target on this forum. Your trolling and
harrassing me is the behaviour of an online bully.

I know you don't realize that - it's just the way you've been
brought up. You can't help it.

Actually to set the record straight - I don't support "Ockernese".
Whatever that means. I'm not familiar with that term.
As for socialism. Again - it depends on the context. My views
are not set in concrete.

__________________________________________________________________

Hi Armchair Critic,

I don't intentionally go out of my way to get under anyone's
skin. And if my opinions have that effect on you - that is
unfortunate. But I stand by them. As I'm sure you do with yours.

Foxy

What arrogance! People who don't like you must have mental health problems! You are the one who is mental, you ridiculous person. You have the same attitude as all totalitarians do to their opposition. They also declare people who oppose them as having mental problems, and often lock them up in institutions. You would love to be able to do that.

You are not "just happy to express (your) own opinions": you have a mania for ranting and ranting against the opinions of others until they give up in disgust.

No wonder the few other women posters we get occasionally don't hang around long: they would be embarrassed by your unfeminine, thuggish behaviour.

You say that you don't support Ockernese - then you reveal that you don't even know what it means! How thick can you get! An 'Ocker' is a crude, ignorant Australian. Albanese is a crude, ignorant Australian - hence Ockernese. Now you know, and you do support him. You have often told us what a good PM the wretch is.

Your ideology is definitely "set in concrete"; and your claim that you "don't intentionally go out of my way to get under anyone's skin" is the biggest load of BS you have ever come up with.

Goodbye, Ocker.

It seems that:

"I've got a bitter enemy
His heart to hate he gave
I'm sure he'd like to see me die
So he could dance upon my grave

But then such is a quirk of life
Because the poison in his heart
May just hasten his miserable life
And force him to depart

So if your heart is full of hate
Folks, be aware
You could end up on a forum online
With nobody that cares

If you let hate rule your life
You'll grow old and mean
And then nobody will listen
When you try to vent your spleen".

Good bye Vicious!

ttbn,

You have just proven my points.

You do have serious mental issues.

Because - No - it's not people who don't like me who
must have mental problems. That's not it. That's not
what I said or inferred at all. That's your attempt
to wiggle out.

It's you who makes personal attacks on me no matter
which discussion and in this one - to which I hadn't even
originally contributed. It's you who continues to chase
me from pillar to post ridiculing the discussion I
raise and post false accusations. It's you.

As for accusing me of being a totalitarian? When you know
my family background. You know that my parents and family
fled from the Soviet Regime and that my family members were
tortured, locked up in Soviet institutions and eventually
murdered.

Saying that that's what I would do to other human beings
that's something that is beneath contempt and can only
come from a seriously mentally disturbed person.

You do have serious mental issues and need professional help.
You should not be posting on a public forum anywhere. Let
alone this one.

Yawn.

Hi Foxy,

Don't entertain this clown, he loves it. Remember the 'Armadillo Principle'!

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the advice.

I have an armadillo handbag from Mexico.
(smile).

Well now that the kiddies little playground spat seems to be over with the combatants retiring to their corners, perhaps we could get back to the issue.

We need to remember that China is more an empire than a country with a series of conquered folk ruled by the imperialistic Han. Some of the conquered cultures have acquiesced, others resist (Tibet) and some are slatted for elimination.

The Uighur are in the later group. A genocide is underway there with slave camps dotted throughout the region. Even worse, there are also re-education camps where Muslim Uighur are taught to love Xi and the CCP. Families are torn asunder and kids adopted out to be raised as Han loving citizens. Forced abortion reduces the population and sterilisation cements the decline. Even worse, there are reports of systemic rape within the camps to intimidate the populace. And worse yet, it is reported that organ harvesting of executed inmates occurs on an industrial scale and that inmates are sometimes selected for execution because their organs are coveted by the rich and powerful.

When the Holocaust was in full swing there wasn't much we could do to stop it other than wage total war to overthrow the offending regime. But no one wants to wage war on the CCP to save the Uighur. But that doesn't mean there's nothing that can be done.

Economic sanctions against all products coming from Xinjiang is one such tool. It won't force the CCP to stop its genocide but it will help to delegitimise the regime and force it to tread carefully as it destroys a people. It also helps to delegitimise the CCP apologists in the west.

Australia won't join that effort. Our current government is too close to China to make any real efforts to seriously criticise China and our leadership in general has tied our economic fortunes to China is a way that makes true independence of action impossible.

The Uighur are a condemned and doomed race. But they won't go quietly and we shouldn't allow the CCP to exterminate them without demur.

mhaze, on what evidence do you base your claims about the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs?

Paul,

We've been down this road before where you demand evidence for things you don't want to be true and then ignore (and forget) the evidence once supplied.

If you're really interested go back to previous threads where I've supplied multiple links to evidence. But in the meantime, Wikipedia is a reasonable jumping off point to get a flavour of the genocide that is occurring.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

mhaze

Thanks for your excellent post.

Hi Foxy,

"I don't intentionally go out of my way to get under anyone's
skin. And if my opinions have that effect on you - that is
unfortunate. But I stand by them. As I'm sure you do with yours."

Yes you did get a little bit niggly towards me over discussions on the Russia / Ukraine situation.
- But I guess it's an issue we both feel strongly about, and each for our own different reasons.
On that topic too, we can agree to disagree, it's perfectly fine.
We all disagree on all the topics for different reasons all the time.
It's just a part of sharing our views on the forum.
Thanks for your response.

mhaze,

No need to get hot under the collar, in your usual fashion when I simply asked what you were basing your evidence on, there was no demand, so stick that rant where the sun don't shine. I've read enough to believe there is evidence of Chinese government mistreatment of the Uyghurs, but to what extent we don't known. Simply regurgitating American propaganda on the subject is not conclusive evidence. The references sighted in Wikipedia are mostly from Western writers and commentators, with a certain amount of bias. I would like to see a fully independent investigation of the alleged Chinese atrocities. If Tibet is any guide I wouldn't count on Chinese cooperation with any such investigation.

You and others of the extreme right, along with some moderates within Australia, are prepared to sell China out at every opportunity. You are happy to march down the road to war with 1.4 billion people on the Americans say so, I'm not accepting of that proposition.

Yep, Paul, as communist apologists have done for a century, requires more proof than 'western propaganda'.

So the only way he'll believe the genocide is happening is if the Chinese own up. But of course the Chinese won't own up and therefore Paul will remain in the 'no-proof' camp.

There are any number of personal testimonies from Uighurs who finally got out, but the apologists dismiss these as the words of people who have a vendetta against the lovable CCP.

This same process took place when the Ukrainian Holodomor occurred. The apologists denied it happened, called for 'independent' proof (ie Russia owning up) and spent 60 years denying it took place. Only after the USSR collapsed and the Russian files were released, was it proven that the Holodomor occurred, although even now papers like the New York Times retain Pulitzer Prizes for their reports denying the Ukraine famine . But by the fall of the USSR the apologists had stopped defending the Kremlin and were intent on defending the CCP.

As I said, there is an enormous amount of information for the apologists to ignore....

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/4/uighur-tribunal-hears-evidence-of-alleged-china-abuses

Being locked into China for trade - thanks to Big Business - has already enslaved us to that country. It is clear that some Australians would be happy to increase that slavery. And, we certainly cannot trust Australian politicians of any sort. They are totally unconcerned for instance, by the scarcity of certain life-saving drugs that have been handed to the Communist country to manufacture. Ask the health minister, and he will not respond, as I found.

mhaze,

Not sure what the relevance is concerning the Holodomor in the Ukraine carried out by Stalinist Russia 90 years ago, how does it fit with this topic, it's simply an historical fact. As I question these things you call me a "communist apologists", may I call you a "Nazi Sympathiser", I think not, and I'm no communist apologists as you claim. When it comes to propaganda the Americans have form, like the way they orchestrated a war in Vietnam in which million were murdered on false propaganda. You are a sycophantic supporter of America, we have no shortage of your type from your side of politics. As I said, I believe there is a case of mistreatment by the Chinese government of the Uyghurs, but to what extent is not clear, there should be an independent investigated in the allegations by the UN.

Paul,

"Not sure what the relevance is concerning the Holodomor in the Ukraine carried out by Stalinist Russia 90 years ago, how does it fit with this topic, it's simply an historical fact. "

Well the point is that it wasn't treated as an historical fact for 60 years because communist apologists refused to accept the evidence. Ditto what's happening in China. Exact same processes.

"may I call you a "Nazi Sympathiser", "

Absolutely. the next time you see me leap to the defence of the NSDAP the way you always leap to the defence of the CCP whenever their virtue is questioned, then please feel free to call me a Nazi sympathiser. Don't hold your breathe.

"there should be an independent investigated in the allegations by the UN."

I provided you with a link to an independent (non USA) investigation with eye-witness accounts. To no one's surprise, you are ignoring it.

mhaze,

How am I ignoring "it", when I say; "I believe there is a case of mistreatment by the Chinese government of the Uyghurs" so until I apologise for the CCP I suggest you shut up calling me a "communist apologists".

Paul,

You are a bit of a shill for the Chinese communists berating me for running down a murderous party because they improved the lives of their people. (Not as much as they could have had China been democratic)

Here you are defending the Chinese use of slave labour. Disgusting.

Hi Paul1405,

Re: Your comment to mhaze;
"...like the way they orchestrated a war in Vietnam in which million were murdered on false propaganda."

- From what I understand the 'Gulf of Tonkin' incident was completely fabricated (false flag) by the United States, as a pretext for further military escalation in the Vietnam War.

"As I said, I believe there is a case of mistreatment by the Chinese government of the Uyghurs, but to what extent is not clear, there should be an independent investigated in the allegations by the UN."

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was some mistreatment going on there, but it also needs to be looked carefully, and in the right context, and I say that specifically in relation to whether the US has deliberately tried to empower this minority to come out into the streets in a public display of civil disobedience and to deliberately cause civil unrest.
- It may be that some of the accused human rights violations were a reaction by the Chinese authorities to quell and manage civil unrest that the US had deliberately caused.
- I think I may have added the report from the UN official for Human Rights, who visited the country last year.
- I believe she was bullied and threatened and was removed from her position; consequentially, I'm not sure we can rely on the UN to produce an unbiased report.

Hey mhaze,
"Well the point is that it wasn't treated as an historical fact for 60 years because communist apologists refused to accept the evidence. Ditto what's happening in China. Exact same processes."

Yeah well It's a historical fact that indigenous were treated horribly by the white inhabitants of Australia and past governments refused to accept the evidence either, because it was they that sanctioned or condoned it.

I've said it before, all nations have horrible histories.
The West is no saint, there would be almost non quantifiable amount of evidence relating to the United States and other Western countries of their own misdeeds.
How many died or were mistreated under policies of slavery in the United States and how many of the perpetrators were ever held accountable for their actions?
Have you heard of Iraq and the non-existent weapons of mass destruction?
You'd be a fool to go down this path without recognising that the West too has plenty of skeletons in it's own closet.

Hey shadowminister,
"You are a bit of a shill for the Chinese communists berating me for running down a murderous party because they improved the lives of their people. (Not as much as they could have had China been democratic)"

This may be true as far as improvement of living standards of the people in general but democracy is by no means a perfect system either.
Instead of enriching the state or corrupt party members, democracy improves means to finance, improves the rate of production and greatly benefits elites and business interests;
Beyond that, democracy is used as a tool of imperial conquest, to steal the wealth of other nations and impose puppet rulers more favorable to Western empire and to maintain and expand western hegemony, without any need to employ a standing army for the purposes of invasion or occupation.

SM,

Get off the drugs! I never posted that, you make one post and claim I've made some comment to you. Either you are delusional, or have more than one nick you post under, quite possible. As I said, get off the drugs.

Hi AC,

Good insight into what is a possibility concerning the Uyghurs. America has a long history of "destabilisation from within" when it comes to ousting unfavourable governments, its just one of their weapons of war. There are many examples of the CIA working to ferment unrest by using proxies in foreign countries. The Americans have no concern for the rights of the Uyghurs in western China, they are an expendable tool to be used and then discarded. The Ukrainians also, like many before them will learn a hard lesson one day, that once being of no more use they'll be thrown away as well.

Well, you see ArmChair, here's the problem.

When we talk about the Uighur, I'll talk about the Uighur and use established evidence. I'll also write about how the Uighur genocide relates to other genocides, in particular those perpetrated by other totalitarian regimes.

What I won't do is run off on wild goose chases using WhatAboutism to try to minimise the crimes of those committing genocide. You know, things like trying to minimise the genocide of a people in western China in the 21st century by trying to divert it to the crimes in the eastern USA in the 19th century. What's next? Let's talk about the genocide of the Dacians in the 2nd century? Just as (ir)relevant.

There is evidence that these crimes against the Uighur have been and are being perpetrated, not the least of which is eye-witness accounts of rape, murder, forced sterilisation and family separation. Trying to minimise this by fantasising about possible external involvement when no evidence for that exists is not only anti-intellectual but also the path that leads away from the truth.

But for some, that's the path they prefer to travel.

Paul,

"Under Communism China has full employment. One of the great benefits of their socialists system. Like social security which you claimed China didn't have, when in fact workers in the worker paradise they enjoy a state run system of insurance, unlike Capatalist India next door where millions beg in the streets!

As I suspected your info is from lying American trash, which makes things up without evidence, just like you."

Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 14 January 2022 5:35:38 AM

"Trying to minimise this by fantasising about possible external involvement when no evidence for that exists is not only anti-intellectual but also the path that leads away from the truth."

Hmmm...
Well, you see mhaze, here's your problem.

You're inept in knowing where to look to find said evidence;
- And you lack the understanding of how the US government goes about these things.

If you had that knowledge you wouldn't say such foolish things and be standing up there on your high horse.

THE FIRST THING I DID, the moment after reading your post;
- Was do a google seach for 'NED Chinese Uyghurs'
(NED means 'National Endowment for Democracy' a government funded organisation in the US)
Here's what I got, you can see for yourself.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=NED+China+Uyghurs
The top result shows a listing for 'World Uyghur Congress - NED Grant Search'
If you click on it, it won't display all the information you need,
- But we'll get back to that.

So next I went down the google search listing a little further and found an article, titled:
NED unveiled as main supporter of farce, disinformation ...
It's an interesting article, but I wasn't sure you'd find it credible as it's from a chinese source 'Global times'
The article itself provides a fair bit of interesting info;
You can get to it from the google search link, or just click here
http://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202205/1265598.shtml

And so next, not to be outdone, I decided to go back to the top google listing, and instead of clicking the title link, I instead looked at the url for that link, and clicked those little 3 dots arranged verticlly at the end of the url for that top listing, and accessed the cached version of the page.

[Cont.]

What I will do now is add the link to that google cached version of the NED page. (Sorry for the long URL)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9tmumWWq7AcJ:https://www.ned.org/wp-content/themes/ned/search/grant-search.php?organizationName%3D%26region%3DAsia%26projectCountry%3DChina%26amount%3D%26fromDate%3D%26toDate%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26projectFocus%255B%255D%3D%26search%3D%26maxCount%3D10%26orderBy%3DReverseSortAs%26start%3D1%26sbmt%3D1&client=firefox-b-d&hl=en&gl=au&strip=0&vwsrc=0

Now if if you click that big link above and scroll down the page, you'll actually get all the info for the projects that were funded by the NED; 278 of them apparently.
- At the top of the page you'll see this:

"Search results for Project Country: China
Project Region: Asia
Project Focus: , , , , , , , , , , , ,
Displaying records 1-10 of 278 results
All results totalling $37,166,073"

So the NED has spent $37,166,073 promoting its activities in China.
You can go through the listings and look at all the individual projects and amount of each grant.

So, the moral to the story is this:
When you state that I am 'fantasising about possible external involvement when no evidence for that exists'...
- Well to put it the nice way, you don't know what you're talking about.

Comprehende?

[Cont.]
Now, further to make my point, I ask you this question:

If the US government is willing to give you a bucket load of money, (and potentially offer you a plane ticket and citizenship, if you're able to leave) when you live in relative poverty - are you willing to lie for them and fabricate a fake 'rape' or anything else, in order to better the life of yourself and your family.

And furthermore, if you make these false claims
- Do you not think the Chinese Authorities will investigate and try to find out who the people were who lied, including potentially acting against your 'human rights' in order to gain said information and learn about your co-conspirators?

Now, finally, I'm not saying that certain human rights violations aren't occurring, perhaps they are, it may even be likely that some of these things are happening.
- But as I said earlier,
'I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was some mistreatment going on there, but it also needs to be looked carefully, and in the right context, and I say that specifically in relation to whether the US has deliberately tried to empower this minority to come out into the streets in a public display of civil disobedience and to deliberately cause civil unrest.'

- I'll even add 'make false accounts of human rights abuses to that previous paragraph'

Are we all 'on the same page' in regards to everything now?

As Paul noted, "America has a long history of 'destabilisation from within' when it comes to ousting unfavourable governments, its just one of their weapons of war. There are many examples of the CIA working to ferment unrest by using proxies in foreign countries."

Are we done?

"Are we done?"

Not even close.

First, as an aside, let me point out that AFTER you made your claims that the US caused the Uighur to engage in civil unrest, you then went looking for evidence. That's not the process I'd recommend to my grandkids. Normally I'd recommend gathering the evidence and then reach a conclusion, not reach a conclusion and then look for confirmatory evidence. Just a thought.

So what have you found? Well you found that the US has been funnelling some funds to the Uighurs to help in their fight against genocide. From that you, without the slightest bit of evidence, decided that the Uighurs were ALL being bribed by the US to sully the name of that wonderful CCP.

So let's look at this unevidenced leap of logic (for want of a better word). There are some Uighurs now in the west who regularly report on the genocide. Its possible that they might be open to saying what's required to get their 30 pieces of silver. No evidence, but not beyond the realms of possibility.

But then we have a report from the Newlines Institute for Strategy and Policy think tank which took evidence from "[t]housands of eyewitness testimonies from Uyghur exiles". Thousands? Wow that yankee bribe money must be spread pretty thin, eh? So now we have to believe that 1000s are lying to get bribed.
Oh, and the same report looked at 1000s of leaked "official Chinese government documents". Let's pretend that didn't happen?

Oh and this was just one report. There are others (I linked to one above) which also took lots of eye-witness testimony. Must have been all on the yankee payroll, I'm sure </sarc>.

/cont

/cont
Oh and then there are leaked Chinese government records which "reveal how Chinese Communist party (CCP) leaders including Mr Xi and Premier Li Keqiang made statements which directly led to policies affecting the Uyghurs and other Muslims.These include forced internments, mass sterilisations, forced assimilation, "re-education", and coercion of detained Uyghurs to work in factories."

Its hard to see how that was orchestrated by the wily yanks so we'll just pretend they don't exist. Oh wait, there were two separate leaks. Let's pretend harder, eh?

We've seen from your attitude to the current war on the Eurasian steppes that your first, second and only conclusion is to blame the US. Its something I see a lot here and in other similar groups. But unfortunately, as regards the Han extermination of their western conquered peoples, you'll struggle to find a way to credibly blame the US. Not that that'll change your mind.

mhaze,
The US does exactly the same stuff in other countries as it does there.
The purpose is to drive a wedge and cause civil unrest, you know how I know that?

Because in the Ukraine (The most corrupt country in Europe) they backed the Neo-Nazis to drive the wedge...
(Do you see them reporting about corruption in the Ukraine? Hell no you don't)

Just as they supported the Mujahudeen, Contras, ISIS (to overthrow Assad) and Pol Pot...
- And hundreds of other dangerous groups and individuals to gain power, wherever they operate.
You think it's all about human rights?
- You'd be an idiot if you were actually that naive.

I'll tell you something abut your article from the New York Post:
Here's your author / journalist: Gulchehra Hoja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulchehra_Hoja
Read her wikipedia, you might learn something.
1. She works for Radio Free Asia, an organisation funded by the US government
2. She hasn't lived in China for 22 years;
And here's the doozy...
3. Whilst the article was written last week, the events she's talking about happened over 5 years ago.
"Three days later on January 31, (2018) twenty-five members of Hoja's family were summoned to local police stations in Xinjiang and detained due to their connection with Hoja.

AND FURTHER, PRIOR TO THIS EVENT
"In 2017 Hoja was accused of being a terrorist by the Chinese government and placed on the Most Wanted list."

AND THEN THIS TO TOP IT ALL OFF
"In April 2021, videos were released of Hoja's mother and brother in which they claim to be leading normal lives and criticize Hoja's reporting."
(Hoja believes this to be forced testimony.)

- Here you were saying there's no evidence of foreign influence.
You don't spend 37 million dollars on 5th column operations in China for nothing.

You bought into a well crafted and manipulative story that was designed to play on your emotions to sell you a bill of goods you wanted to hear, that confirmed your already existing bias.
- There may be some truth to it, but that's about all we can know.

Tell me do you want to go to war with China for this?
- Because that's what they're trying to sell you.

SM,

When we were making a comparison between China and India, I did say that under Chinese Communism, the average person there came out on top economically when compared to the average Indian under Capitalism. Now how does that make me ; "a bit of a shill for the Chinese communists"

'Shill' is the wrong word, its meaning doesn't fit what you are trying to convey.

mhaze,

I read your link detailing the personal account of Gulchehra Hoja and the treatment of his family by the police, although a dramatic account I don't doubt its not essentially true. As I read it I could see uncanny similarities with Australia's treatment of Aboriginal people, summary arrest, hoods over heads, denied medical treatment etc. While the world is rightly investigating China over human right abuse, they should also be investing Australia over our abuse of Aboriginals. Do you agree?

America thrives on war, otherwise its economic stagnation, and the loss of trillions of dollars for American Capitalism, nothing gives greater impetus to the American economy than war, that is an undeniable fact. AC asked the question;

Tell me do you want to go to war with China for this?

What, over our newest and dearest friends, the Ukrainians and Uyghurs (can someone gives us the correct spelling)! No one will go to war to save the Ukrainians, much less the Ugehurs, not even the Americans. BUT, they will go to war to boost the American economy, and the 'Useful Idiots' like many Australians will dutifully fall into line as us suckers have done since WWII.

Again AC, you have no evidence that the facts around the genocide in Xinjiang are being manipulated by the US. No evidence. All you have is information that some US money is going toward helping those suffering the genocide, information that you pass through your its'-always-america's-fault filter and , hey presto, the whole thing is a vast US plot. Who needs evidence, when they just know.

But what I found amusing, AC, is that, after I'd shown evidence from actual hacked Chinese government data and facetiously commented that we'll need to try hard to ignore it, you did indeed ignore it.

When my kids were growing up I had this book for them called "All the Flowers are Red". the basic premise was about someone who asserted there were only red flowers. Each page had pictures of different coloured flowers with one red flower intermixed - a where's Wally type thing. It taught colours. The protagonist only ever noticed the red flowers and continued to assert that all flowers are red. But it also taught that, if you ignore all the evidence, then your prejudices will be confirmed. In the book, the protagonist finally comes to recognise other colours.

I wonder if you'll recognise the analogy?

Paul disingenuously asks "Tell me do you want to go to war with China for this?"

In my very first post on this thread I wrote "But no one wants to wage war on the CCP to save the Uighur. But that doesn't mean there's nothing that can be done."

What is it with you characters? The only choice is total war or total subservience? The thread calls for economic sanctions in support of those suffering genocide. But you can't bring yourself to support that because....CCP.

I believe there will eventually be a war between China and the US aided by its north Asian allies. Whether we join in is unknowable at this time. But the war won't be over the genocide of Uighurs and Tibetans just as the war against Nazism wasn't about the Holocaust. It'll be about Chinese adventurism bought on by CCP desperation as their economic model unravels.

Look seriously,
If you want to go fight China, then go pop on your jumpsuit,
I'm sure we can find you a rifle and a few grenades and a box of rations and we'll parachute you in to Xinjiang.
We can even let Xi know your coming.
I wish you good luck in your endeavors.

You want to fight, go fight.
- But keep the rest of us out of it will you, if you don't mind.

As an Australian, I'm concerned about Australian interests.
That means not going to war with our largest trading partner.
- Because the US is going down the toilet, militarily and economically
and it likes to roam the planet like an unstable drunk aiming a shotgun at everyone.

I say " no one wants to wage war on the CCP to save the Uighur"

AC responds..."If you want to go fight China..."

Logic takes a holiday.

"The thread calls for economic sanctions in support of those suffering genocide. But you can't bring yourself to support that because....CCP."

I don't support economic sanctions (or overthrows).

mhaze

The question was from AC; "Tell me do you want to go to war with China for this?" I was not directing anything at YOU! I was not being disingenuous. If we only needed to raise a Dads Army of dimwits, then a Platoon of the like minded from OLO wouldn't be a problem, unfortunately war with China might involve somewhat more than a Dads Army Platoon.

Okay mhaze, what punitive action should Australia take against the Chinese? Please explain your economic sanctions, no more iron ore and coal for that nasty enemy. No more filling our shelves with nasty Chinese manufactured goods. The previous fools in Canberra tried to shirt front the Chinese, on American orders, and look where that got us. My suggestion is we send you and a couple of other old conservatives from OLO, and have you give that horrible Xi a right old bollocking, that'll sort em' out!

" Please explain your economic sanctions"

Did you read the heading to the thread or the initial posts?

mhaze,

Since the topic was started by ttbn, and not YOU, unless you and ttbn are one in the same, being as anti Chinese as you are I thought you might have wanted to go further than simply a ban on solar panels, with an Australian version of 'The Uyghur Forced Labour Protection Act'. As the opening post says it based on suspicion and not face, maybe we should invoke lots of 'The (insert country name) Forced Labour Protection Act'. We have "suspicions" galore that forced/slave labour is being used in many countries to produce good for the Australian market. Bangladesh, Vietnam, India, Turkey etc, lots of them, in fact. If you shop in K-mart for example there's every likelihood based on suspicions that you are purchasing goods produced in third world countries by forced/slave labour. To be consistent what do you think we should do about those countries? I know wait for our orders from America, right.

Well we've gone from there is no genocide to sanctions won't stop the genocide so why try.

The idea is to sanction all products that come out of Xinjiang unless they can be shown to not be products of slave labour. This won't make any real difference in dissuading the Han from destroying the Uighurs but it will keep the issue at the forefront of international affairs and show the world the true nature of the CCP.

So not just solar panels but other products eg almost all cotton products from China are made by slave labour.

mhaze,

There is evidence of slave labour being used in Bangladesh to produce cheap garments for the Australian market. What do you suggest we do? This is nothing new, its been going on with our knowledge for years.

Think about cadbury chocolate.
We buy thousands of tons of the stuff.
Where do you think it comes from?
Ghana, Côte d'Ivoire, Indonesia, Dominican Republic, India and Brazil.

How much do you think those people get paid?
http://www.fairtrade.net/news/new-study-shows-higher-incomes-for-fairtrade-cocoa-farmers

"The study, published today by Fairtrade and available here, found that the average annual Ivorian cocoa farmer household income grew from $2,670 USD in 2016/17 to $4,937 USD in 2020/21, an increase of 85% driven, in part, by increased revenue from cocoa sales and diversification through in-kind and off-farm incomes. In addition, a significant number of Ivorian cocoa farmers have moved out of extreme poverty with 61% of the farmers’ households in the current study living above the extreme poverty line, as compared to 42% based on data collected in 2016/17 and published in 2018."

- Average Ivory Coast cocoa farmer household income US$5000 per year.
What do you think their hourly rate is? 50c an hour?

We couldn't enjoy all the nice things we have in Australia if we had to pay Australian wages to have them.
Some might say it's good business, but it's still built on the exploitation of others.

Maybe we should sanction Cadbury, and Kmart as well for daring to sell us all good quality Bangladeshi garments everyone is wearing.
- We might have to close down half the country

Hi AC,

Was there not a kerfuffle a few years back when it was suggested that Australian businesses pay and extra 10 cents towards garment piece workers in Asia, producing fashion for the high end market in Australia. If I recall rightly good old Solly Lew (the same Solomon Lew who refused to pay rent during Covid) refused the request for his 'Myer' stores (the same stores he didn't want to pay rent for during Covid).

"Solomon Lew is an Australian businessman. His principal commercial activities involve importing apparel, toys and other goods into Australia from China and investments, mainly in retail companies."

Paul,

For starters, China has just about the worst wealth distribution in the world. The Chinese majority:

1 Earns far less than the "average"
2 Works long hours with no overtime,
3 Has almost no protection from labour laws
4 Gets no unemployment insurance
5 Gets no pension
6 Gets little to no free health care
7 Faces the cost of buying a house of 40yrs salary,
8 Faces constant censorship and no free speech
9 Faces arbitrary arrest and courts that assume guilt

And with India's growth rate now far higher than China's India's average income will in the near future exceed China's.

"As of July 2022, the “new middle-class in China” has grown to represent 13.7% of the total net population. It's growing at 15.6% year-on-year and reached 163 million this year."

"India; 41.6% of its population (540 million people approx.) is living below the new international poverty line of $1.25 (PPP) per day."

For starters, India has just about the worst wealth distribution in the world. The Indian majority:

1 Earns far less than the "average"
2 Works long hours with no overtime,
3 Has almost no protection from labour laws
4 Gets no unemployment insurance
5 Gets no pension
6 Gets little to no free health care
7 Faces the cost of buying a house of 40yrs salary,
8 Faces constant censorship and no free speech
9 Faces arbitrary arrest and courts that assume guilt

China's average income NOW exceeds that of India.

Pauliar,

You are a shill and your last post proves it. Just about everything you posted is a lie.

India does have labour laws that courts support,
India does not censor all speech,
India's courts don't assume that the accused is guilty,
India does have some level of free health care.
India does have a state-funded aged pension
The house price to salary index in India is 9 compared to 36 in China

Wow, are you chaps still trying to find a way to justify genocide? Forced sterilisations, slave farms, forced abortions, family separation, executions, concentration camps, forced re-education. And as a response you want to talk about the cost of chocolate? Struth!

Paul makes up claims of slavery in Bangladesh as he races to find a reason to excuse the CCP, while claiming that he doesn't race to find a reason to excuse the CCP!!

Agreed, wages in third world countries are bad. That's why they're called third world countries. But garment workers in Bangladesh get around the average wage of other workers in that country, and they have a job. I read recently of a strike in Bangladesh over higher wages for garment workers. I don't think its a feature of slave labour that they strike to get higher wages, but mere facts are the least of Paul's concerns as he races to find a reason to excuse the CCP.

I can't help but notice that AC continues to avoid the evidence of leaked Chinese documents on the genocide. After all, how can you blame the evil USA when there are Chinese documents telling another story.

mhaze,

I'm sure the Americans have tons of "leaked" Chinese documents, they can wheel out, an incrimination document or three, on all the evils of that wicked empire. Maybe they got them from all those "spy" balloons they supposedly shot down. Gee, the Chinese were even spying on the polar bears in Alaska, oh deary me.

SM,

According to the latest World Bank figures, 21.9% of Indians live below the accepted poverty line (income of less than $3.65/day), whereas the World Bank reports 0.0% of Chinese live below the same accepted poverty line. As your pin up Gal the Lovely Pauline would say PLEASE EXPLAIN!

India has no universal aged pension, whereas in China the universal pension is for everyone.

In China the normal pension age is 60 years, 50 years for blue collar women and 55 years for white collar women. The basic pension pays 1% of the average of the indexed individual wage for each year worked, minimum of 15 years, or a pension based on the province-wide average earnings, whichever is the greater.

"In China the normal pension age is 60 years"

What's the pension age for Uighur slaves?

Comparing China to India is invalid. For most of the post-WW2 period India was a socialist nightmare where development was restrained and what development occurred was throttled in the crib. It has only been this century that India has seen the need to let the market thrive and only since then that India has thrived.

If you want to compare capitalist to communist in terms of human development and/or welfare then look at North Korea v. South Korea or West Germany v. East Germany or Poland under the communists and now-free Poland.

Paul,

China's pension system is tied to wages earned (minimum 15 years of employment) and applies to the urban areas it is not universal.

China's poverty rate for 2019 was 24.70% not zero as shills would claim.

http://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CHN/china/poverty-rate

China's unemployment is not zero as you claimed.

SM,

I am not familiar with 'macrotrends' are the run by the CIA out of Washington? I much prefer to rely on the independent chaps down at the 'World Bank'.

mhaze, I will agree post WWII India has been an economic nightmare. I don't believe that there was anything "socialist" about them, unless you believe having millions begging in the streets is "socialists", I'd call it "free enterprise", free to beg! India has the most number of people living in poverty of any country in the world, about 300 million. BTW begging is outlawed in China, no need for it.

No good throwing up the fascists states of Eastern Europe, unfortunately for them, they were on the losing side after WWII, for example the Germans, and the Soviets kicked the crap out of them as payback for 20 million of their citizens killed. The northern part of Korea is the direct result of American imperialism on the Korean Peninsula. America made sure they paid a high price for non cooperation, now look at them, a failed state run by crazies.

Paul,

You said "'macrotrends' are run by the CIA out of Washington?'

Lies like this make you a shill.

Firstly they are based in Seattle and the CIA is in Virginia.
Secondly not every business in the US is run by the CIA, and most of their data is focused on stock and commodity prices and futures which the CIA would not be interested in.

Finally, the world bank for political reasons parrots the figures given to it by the country involved so pretty much anyone else would be more accurate than the CCP.

SM,

I asked a question; "I am not familiar with 'macrotrends' are the (sic) run by the CIA out of Washington? they for the, my typing mistake. You fudged what I said by making a deletion, and therefore your use of quotation marks makes you deceitful.

'macrotrends'

India poverty rate for 2019 was 83.80%, a 1.2% increase from 2018.
China poverty rate for 2019 was 24.70%, a 3.4% decline from 2018.

Oh dear! I was wrong INDIA has more than a BILLION PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY according to 'macrotrends' What a great Capitalist model is INDIA . Thank you SM for 'macrotrends' Given India and China are similar in population, size, resources etc, it seems Chinese Communism has saved 750 million of their citizens from Indian style poverty. Can we record that as a great achievement for the CCP?

Paul,

Please don't lie, it was a statement that you put a question mark at the end. I also included that in my quote.

Secondly, the comparison should be between Taiwan and China with the same people and start. Here the CCP fails miserably. That the CCP killed 50m of its people didn't help.

China is borrowing massively to avoid an outright recession using the local governments who are all now approaching bankruptcy.

India's growth rate now far exceeds China's and will in a few decades overtake it in terms of its GDP.

SM,

Why did you misquote me, making out that I said; "'macrotrends' are run by the CIA out of Washington?" That is a statement, not a question, so drop the question mark. By leaving out the word "they" which made it a question, you were being DECEITFUL, no question of that!

BTW, as your pin up gal The Lovely Pauline would say PLEASE EXPLAIN, the horrendous (83.8%) poverty in INDIA, as quoted from your link 'macrotrends' in reality that is 1.1 billion people living in poverty, what a success story is that!

BBTW, Its apples to apples, India/China, not apples to oranges. I'm not comparing China to Luxembourg or some such country, or a Provence of China like Taiwan.

Pauliar,

You didn't put the word they in you put the word "the" in which I thought was just another grammatical cock up on your part.

You are lying and being DECEITFUL by claiming that you put in the word 'they'

SM,

Life in YOUR Capitalist utopia of INDIA must be wonderful for some, but not for the 83.8%, and rising, of INDIANS living in poverty, that's 1,100,000,000 people. YES! 1,100,000,000 people in poverty, what an achievement for INDIA who have followed the Capitalist pathway for the past 75 years since Independence from the oppressive British Empire!

YOU gave me the Capitalist website 'macrotrends' to claim China has 24.7%, and declining, of its people living in poverty, a figure not supported by the World Bank, but if true, not acceptable in anyone's language, good to see the Chinese government is working for the people to eradicate any poverty that might exist, with a Socialist system supporting the impoverished.

shadowminister, why are YOU refusing to give an explanation for INDIA'S 83.8% POVERTY, YOU POSTED THE WEBSITE! Hey fess up, that you stuffed up! Now you want to shut up!

Paul,

Life in YOUR communist utopia must be fantastic with 25% living in poverty 50 million dying of starvation and on average earning about 1/3rd of the amount of those in TAIWAN the part of China with democracy and capitalism and not communism.

No matter how much of a shill YOU ARE you can't beat the numbers.

SM,

I asked YOU to give an explanation for the 83.8% of INDIANS living in poverty according to YOUR website supplied 'macrotrends' Just to remind YOU that's 1,100,000,000 people. No need for YOUR pathetic attempts at deflection. Just answer the question.

FESS UP, YOU STUFFED UP, NOW YOU WANT TO SHUT UP! The dog has been cornered!

Pauliar,

You said "Under Communism, China has full employment"

You then tried to compare this to India which is a different culture and background when the real comparison is with Taiwan.

You also failed to explain why communism is so great after the CCP deliberately starved 50 000 000 people in the great leap forward. PLEASE EXPLAIN.

FESS UP, YOU STUFFED UP, NOW YOU WANT TO SHUT UP! YOU HAVE been cornered!

Shonky,

Stop the deflection, my question is very simple, INDIA with a similar size in population, area, location, resources as CHINA, has according to YOUR source data 'macrotrends' 83.8% living in poverty under Capitalism, and CHINA as a Socialist state 24.7%, again from your source 'macrotrends'. Economically CHINA has gone ahead in leaps and bounds, whilst INDIA remains the biggest basket case in Asia.

Just as I don't compare the living standards of folks living in the Sydney suburb of Vaucluse with folks like you living in Shalvey, you're all Sydneysiders. I don't compare one small Chinese province with the rest of China.

BTW, I have a good friend in Sydney from Taiwan, she is very concerned about her family back home. I support independence for Taiwan, without American use of the island as an aggressive base for destabilisation and militarism against the people of mainland China.

ANSWER THE QUESTION!

http://youtu.be/HTp54QwxV8U

More data for our resident CCP apologist to ignore.

The treatment of Australia's own "Uyghurs" the most incarcerated people in the World.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekEUYBPnPS0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idAWHmjuJqk

I say freedom for ALL "Uyghurs" of the world! Chinese, Australian, and all others. Do we have agreement on that.

Yep...all Uighurs in Australia ought to be free, unless they been convicted of a crime. (Note: growing a beard isn't a crime).

Did anyone note that Paul, who claims to not be a CCP apologist, has spent a lot of time here trying to defend the CCP.

The treatment of Australia's own "Uyghurs" the most incarcerated people in the World.
Paul1405,
That is a deceiving statement as it's primarily the young who, by courtesy of people such as yourself have been encouraged to go about with indiscipline & their incarceration rate shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who knows about their antics. In a nutshell, their incarceration rate is a direct result of the objections of people such as yourself to instil discipline on grounds of race. The many non-indigenous useless are in the other hull of that catamaran built to your specifications !
The older indigenous were mainly copping the short end of the stick because of bureaudroids such as yourself but most these old never behaved like the young do now !
You really should only need a second to think of how you et al caused that situation.

Pauliar,

Please explain how the lives of the 50m Chinese that starved to death were improved by the CCP?

Please explain how the CCP has performed against Taiwan which is far richer per capita with identical people and starting point and do not try to divert to compare with India.

Please explain how the lives of the 350 000 000 Chinese living in poverty have been improved.

Please explain how the lives of 2000 Chinese executed annually have improved.

Please explain how the Chinese working 72hrs/week with no overtime have their lives improved?

Please explain how you claimed that China had full employment when they have about 6% unemployment

SM, Indy and mhaze,

Three of the forums extremists who have shown a definite dislike for all Muslims in the past. Claims have been made here that all 1.9 billion Muslims in the world, are terrorists, or the supporters of terrorists, extremist claims not mine, and not supported by me! The majority of Uyghurs are Muslims, should that make the majority terrorists, or the supporters of terrorism? If the majority are innocent of wrong doing, and I believe they are, then why not Australia offer to take 1 million for resettlement, and America offer to take the remaining 11 million Uyghurs.

SM, you thought you had struck gold with a reliable American website 'macrotrends', one of your choice posted CHINA had a poverty level of 24.7%. BUT when I pointed out that the same reliable American website put the INDIAN poverty level at 83.8%, a country you believe is a shining example of the success of mass Capitalism. when I asked you to explain the figure of 83.8% poverty level in INDIA, you ran away like a mangy dog with his tail between his legs.

ANSWER THE QUESTION! A reasonable answer from YOU will see me happy to answer all your deflection questions. Until then I don't see any obligation to do so. If I was your class teacher (thankfully I never was), and I asked you; Shadowminister have you sh!t your pants again? (I can smell it). I don't think its reasonable for YOU to answer back; Teacher have you pissed your pants again?

that all 1.9 billion Muslims in the world, are terrorists, or the supporters of terrorists,
Paul1405,
Majority acquiescence does not reflect all !

Indy,

"Majority acquiescence does not reflect all!"

What you are saying is the majority of Muslims say nothing when it comes to acts of terrorism, therefore you assume they must be supporters. That is false, the mainstream Muslim leadership have gone to great lengths to publicly condemn terrorism. The ordinary have no public voice, so clams of silence does indicates support is fallacious on your part.

You could make the same false assumption about paedophilia in the Catholic Church, the majority of Catholics have not condemned church paedophilia publicly, as they have no means to do so, so therefore they must be supporters. What rubbish!

Paul1405,
The same goes for the Catholics & indeed all who watch but make an effort to stop these practices.
Just as it goes for those bureaucrats on over-generous public salaries who let people down on a daily basis.
That lady in Byron Bay facing deportation is a fine example of the system you're so defensive & proud of !

Indy,

The law should always be tempered with justice. From what I've read about the English woman Belinda Checkley's case she should be allowed to stay in Australia permanently, I have no problem with that, so what's your point?

BTW; We let you in, so that set the bar rather low, did it not? At least this woman has not played the welfare system from the day she arrived, not like some!

Pauliar,

You posted that China had no poverty. Were you lying again or just stupid?

Are you claiming that Indians are more like the Chinese than the Taiwanese?

What about the 50 000 000 that the CCP killed, does that matter to you?

What about the economic hole that the CCP has driven China into now?

shonky,

The World Bank figure for the level of poverty in China was given as 0.0%, that's where that came from, and at the time of posting I said so. So that answers that question.

NOW! You said 'macrotrends' was a very reliable site with honest information, and they put the level of poverty in China at 24.7%, you posted that. Researching the same website I found they put the level of poverty for India at 83.8%. WE have discussed India/China before so PLEASE EXPLAIN why under rampant Capitalism the Indian poverty level is 83.8%, after 75 years of independence from the murderous British tyrants.

One who wont answer a question because he has been caught out; weasel, skunk, toad, you can add a few more for yourself.

Pauliar,

After admitting that China has 350 000 000 people in poverty you want to know why India fell behind. It's simple:

India had poorly run socialism while China for the last 40 years had rampant capitalism which raised the living standards.

In Taiwan the Chinese there had a capitalist system with some social benefits and rapidly improved far better than similar people under the CCP.

This is what you as a shill need to address. Answers please!!

shonky,

"India had poorly run socialism" is that why they failed to deliver pensions, food, clothing, shelter, education, health care etc etc things socialism would provide to 1.1 billion people, poorly run socialism tends to do that, not deliver. Now your're claiming China has "rampant capitalism", before you claimed they were communists, so what's it to be capitalists or communists. That "rampant capitalist" Xi should jump into bed with your folk hero Trump!

Australia is also a poorly run communist state, so we called it a liberal/democracy, that's just another euphemism for a "poorly run communist state." Shonky you're a Honky! But good value for a laugh, never the less!

BTW; The official US government census in 2021 put their poverty level at 11.6% or about 38 million people. For the worlds richest country rampant capitalism is not doing too well there. Maybe its because they are total warmongers, spending about $2 trillion a year on militarism. The Chinese are spend about $230 billion, that's around 1/8th of America, they must be peace loving people to spend so little, what do you think of that?

BBTW; Chinese manufacturing is going gang busters again, you said they were in for a total collapse. Another one of your super brain predictions gone wrong. I don't need to remind you of your 'Cry Baby' Porter prediction, now do I.

Pauliar,

More lies I see. I am uncertain as to whether you are pretending to be stupid.

China has been run by the communist party for 74 years. The first 3 decades of actual communism led to almost universal poverty and the mass starvation of 50 000 000 people. The last 4 decades after the CCP opened the economy to capitalism saw massive growth but with the vast majority of the wealth going to communist party members. Now the economy is closer to the fascist model.

India was ruled by the Indian National Congress from 1952 to 1977 and was centre left /socialist with the low growth rates typical of socialism.

"Nehru embraced secularism, socialistic economic practices based on state-driven industrialisation, and a non-aligned and non-confrontational foreign policy that became typical of the modern Congress Party"

Also:

China's manufacturing sector has improved off a low base during zero covid, but no one is claiming that it is going gangbusters.

"China's local government debt had already been rising dramatically for a decade before the pandemic, largely the result of a state-led investment boom in the wake of the 2008 global financial crisis. But the situation has deteriorated rapidly in the last three years.
Last year, local government debt jumped 15% to 35 trillion yuan ($5.2 trillion), according to data released by the Ministry of Finance on Sunday. Interest payments on local government bonds exceeded one trillion yuan ($148 billion) for the first time in history, according to state media.
Debt that is backed by local governments but which doesn't show up on their balance sheets could be much bigger.
The "hidden debt" issued by local government financial vehicles, entities created to circumvent borrowing restrictions and used to channel funding for infrastructure spending, might have totaled 65 trillion yuan ($9.6 trillion) by the middle of 2022, according to a recent estimate by analysts at Mars Macro, an economic research firm based in Hunan.
That's more than 20% higher than the estimate of 53 trillion yuan made by Goldman Sachs in 2021."

shonky

I am not a Maoist, and never have been. China under Mao failed to rise to its potential, and many people suffered and died because of Maoism. You put a figure of 50 million on it, that number could have been even greater. Capitalism in American caused 5 million direct deaths through slavery and another 50 million indirectly through deprivation of African Americans for another 100 years. Both are historical examples of excesses caused by ideology and exploration gone wrong.

I have shown that your claim that INDIA is in someway today superior economically than CHINA, which is an absurdity. You based that claim on your rabid ideological belief that 'Unfettered Capitalism" such as in India, will always Trump what can best be described as 'Ordered Socialism' as practised in China.

Pauliar,

You made the comparison between India and China not me. However, it was still the Chinese communist party that killed 50 million of its own citizens that slowly and agonizingly starved to death. Nothing in India even vaguely compares with this.

As for the deaths in the US that you quote, it sounds like complete bullsh1t to me. Provide proof or just be called a LIAR again.

The comparison is between China and Taiwan which leaves China in the dirt.

Shonky,

You rake up the Chinese province of Taiwan as your new get out to try and remove your head from the noose you put it in when claiming India has a superior economic outcome in regards to poverty than China.

Very little similarity between Taiwan with its population of 24 million and area of 36,000 Km2, and mainland China with a population of 1,400 million and a land mass of 9.6 million km2. Other than the fact they are both in Asia, and in close proximity to each other with a mostly ethnic Chinese population comparison is chalk and cheese.

As for Taiwan, I support self determination for the Taiwanese people, a free and prosperous people independent of outside influence. Unfortunately that would be impossible given America would use an independent Taiwan to threaten the security of mainland China, as they have done with South Korea and Japan.

BTW, don't you understand 'POVERTY KILLS', wherever it is, in India, China, America even in Australia today, there are those who die from the effects of poverty. As for deaths of African Americans because of poverty, see if you can find the documentary 'Slavery America', I have a copy and it traces the economic impact on Black America from the end of the American Civil War to the actual ending of slavery in 1942. True 'Freedom' is still an illusion for the vast majority of African Americans. Why aren't you protesting their plight in the richest country on earth. Just like you really don't give a sh!t about anyone whose not like YOU

Pauliar,

Again, you lie! Where did I say "India has a superior economic outcome in regards to poverty than China"?

Taiwan is a better comparison than India because it has the same people with the same background starting at the same time. This time your head is in the noose.

India presently has a better growth rate than China.

shonky,

Of course the Chinese Provence of Taiwan with its small population and area, coupled with massive American investment has a superior per capita economy than mainland China. Taiwan is an American propaganda show piece, claiming there is a superiority of capitalism over communism, and the Taiwanese have benefited from that. India has had no such luck, and is an economic basket case with 1.1 billion poverty stricken.

You wanting to make comparisons between Taiwan and mainland China, is like you sighting the economic superiority of people living in the Sydney suburb of Vaucluse with those living in Mount Druitt. Chalk and Cheese.

Pauliar,

Firstly, Taiwan has a population of twenty-five million people, most descendants of those that fled from CCP oppression. The island had been occupied by the Japanese and was nothing like Vaucluse.

The "massive" aid you are talking about was $1.4bn over 14 years (something that Albozo blows on a weekend) primarily military aid to fight off the PLA and a small portion to help with infrastructure.

While the Taiwanese were encouraging foreign investment the CCP was shooting the educated and starving its people. The reality is that Taiwan got a 20-year head start.

The comparison between China and India that you brought up to deflect from the more relevant comparison with Taiwan.