Some people believe that terrorism is devided to Halal and Haram.
Haram is antonym for Halal in Arabic language. They believe that there are Halal terrorism and Haram terrorism.

Do you think terrorism are two types or just one?

Hi Angela
as I've said in the past.. we would do well to avoid the term 'terrorism'... it is a covenient term which we use to seek to establish the following:

1/ We had the moral high ground.
2/ The terrorists do not.

in short.. 'We are good, they are evil, thus we must fight them'..

I prefer to speak in terms of 'allies and enemies'. Ultimately, it is not so much about the moral worth or lack thereof for a particular enemy, it is about independance, freedom, and the opportunity to shape OUR future in our own way. We might not be 'there' yet, but to be dragged and clubbed to 'there' (which might be the vision of our enemy, rather than our own) is not my cup of tea.

The problem with defining "enemies" is our own lack of self identity.
So,.. like a good flow chart.. we need to define our variables up top.

Once we have a sense of who we are, we can then better define our enemies and those who threaten our freedom to chart our own course.

Having defined ourselves, and our enemies, then it becomes much easier to prevent enemies and those who support them from destroying that very freedom.

Sadly, our 'allies' sometimes do things which are repulsive. But without them... we are toast.

The Islamic hadith authorizes the killing of women and children.. 'as long as it is not deliberate' and 'during night raids'. I find this rather curious, because they continually claim that 'Islam only authorizes defensive fighting' yet the hadith speaks of 'night raids' where women and children are likely to be killed.

But then...it also depends on which Muslim you speak with.
If we speak with Fellow Human.. bless him... he will take the 'defensive only' viewpoint.

However..if you speak with this person..Bassam Zawadi (Educated at Woolongong)
http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/index.html

He agrees with offensive war to establish Islam. He admitted this to me in personal email.

Food 4 thought.

INSIGHT INTO THE MIND OF A MUSLIM TERRORIST.....

Rather than seek to wax eloquent myself about the reasons and justifications which inevitably draw flack, criticism, charge of 'obession' etc.. why not look at an actual letter.. written by

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Reza_Taheri-azar

who drove his car into a crowd of American University students in order to kill as many as possible....

here...

http://www.dailytarheel.com/media/paper885/documents/jzjo063s.pdf

and then evaluate this information.

The scary thing about this, is that people LIKE this man could be lurking in our universtities.. just waiting to the 'switched on' by sufficient human/Quran interaction and daily newsbites.

So...next time, when I claim 'this verse justifies' such and such.. specially Pericles and CJ (Peppy, Ginx also).. before you tell me "You make very selective use of Islamic scriptures to justify your own religious hatred" ...howwwww about.. reading this 'very selective letter' and see how close my claims are to the mindset of people DOING the kinds of things I warn against.

I will add one point though. The only way THIS person could have been prevented from doing what he did, (apart from physical restraint) would be to show him that the Quran, Mohammad and Islam, are questionable themselves.

Hi BOAZ
I understand what you mean. I also believe that we must fight with terrorism. I believe that terrorism is evil. Here I am talking about different topic, I am talking about two kinds of terrorism. I think I should explain more.

Some people trying to prove that terrorism in Islam is devided to two types: 1. Halal terrorism 2. Haram terrorism.
Their reason is : If there is discrimination for anti terrorism law between Muslim suspect and Non Muslim suspect (as the Australian cleric has mentioned) will result in creating the division of Haram terrorism and Halal terrorism by the Australian government.

So deviding the terrorism into Halal and Haram in Australia by John Howard will result in giving chance to Muslims to have TWO kinds of terrorism, Muslim will take advantage of that and say to John Howard "Oh Johny if you have cut the terrorism in half Halal for Non Muslims and half Haram for Muslims, we Muslims are more professional to make things Halal. If you have two types of Halal and Haram terrorism IN AUSTRALIA , we will also have two kinds of terrorism IN ISLAM, Oh John! we love to devide terrorism into the Halal and Haram, thank you for giving us this great opportunity by supporting discrimination in anti terrorism law between Muslims and Non Muslims"

This idea first started by Sheikh Haron , later some Muslims tried to conclude there are two kinds of terrorism.

I believe there is only one type of terrorism, Haram terrorism, but discrimination in terrorist acts between Muslims and Non Muslims will result in two kinds, and that would be dangerous for national security.
I think it is very important that Australian government avoid any discrimination in terrorist acts otherwise the result might be a serious threat to the nation.

Yes we have Halal and Haram terrorism.
If anyone wants to deny it or doesn't know what is the definition for Halal terrorism or what is the difference between Haram terrorism and Halal terrorism , I can explain all these things.

but there is an important point that we should consider it. "Halal terrorism in Australia" is different with Halal terrorism in Islam" , so if anyone has question about "Halal terrorism" , must specify "in Australia" or "in Islam".

I think it is better I post a new thread about it and answer the questions about this important topic.

People Against Live Exports

what do you think?

Ozzie
There you are. I was getting worried you and my old buddy Boazie might have had a beef up at APEC.
Well to be really honest with you I would very much like to talk to you about something apart from having an interest in this thread.
Its about Halal meat and world supply.
I can understand why or understand why you suggest to start a new thread. A new heading too ah. Angerla you asked what we think but I dont quite understand you question to be honest. What do you think ?
From a first glance I must say I think your heading is a bit irresponsible.
Very possibly without any intention but many old school Aussies are just starting hear the world Halal.
We dont want them relating the word Halal to terrorism until they understand the word and the meaning behind that word.
Halal means lawful [ allowed]
I am not sure we should be allowed to display irresponsible public material which could mislead the average Aussie.
Thats what I think.

Perhaps you could supply more details of what you really mean before asking this question.
I will look forward to it
Yo I`m Aussie to the bone so shoot!
oz boazie off to meeting- let talk about this soon
Blessings to all.

Angerla you might find this helpful but if you want to control STOP AQIS giving out accreditations to the highest bidder!
)ne Halal accreditation in Australia authority working with "Humane"! Muslims
I`ll personally chase the reast off myself Angeela[ with a big stick ok!

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Angela84, do you have references for this?

>>Some people trying to prove that terrorism in Islam is devided to two types: 1. Halal terrorism 2. Haram terrorism. Their reason is : If there is discrimination for anti terrorism law between Muslim suspect and Non Muslim suspect (as the Australian cleric has mentioned) will result in creating the division of Haram terrorism and Halal terrorism by the Australian government.<<

I have seen nothing to suggest that terrorism is defined any way other than "bad". Do you have evidence to the contrary?

And Boaz, you really should know better by now.

>>Rather than seek to wax eloquent myself about the reasons and justifications which inevitably draw flack, criticism, charge of 'obession' etc.. why not look at an actual letter.. written by [Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar]<<

There is absolutely no justification for this.

It is clear that the man is unbalanced. When people are unbalanced, they do really stupid things - sometimes, really bad things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unabomber

I deliberately chose a non-religious nutter, to show that when it comes to mad acts, they aren't invariably based on one's religion.

Some are, of course

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0196/9601059.html

And here's a bunch of fun:

"So the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building was carried out by persons allied with the extreme right in the US, and in addition to McVeigh and Nichols, there were probably several other participants who most likely had ties to the neonazi underground, Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nations, Christian Identity, or the Christian Patriot movement.<

http://www.publiceye.org/rightist/ok_intro.html

Oh, and who are these "Christian Identity" folk?

http://kelticklankirk.com/militias_christian_identity.htm

You see, Boaz, it isn't just Islam we should be concerned about. There are extremists in every imaginable group or sect, prepared to do really stupid things in the name of ...whatever.

By trawling for every bit of anti-Islamic scuttlebutt you can find - including incidents where no-one was seriously damaged - you are becoming increasingly responsible for the very acts that you pretend to despise.

I think you must get a secret thrill, every time you find something horrid to regale us with... you do, don't you?

>>Yes we have Halal and Haram terrorism.
If anyone wants to deny it or doesn't know what is the definition for Halal terrorism or what is the difference between Haram terrorism and Halal terrorism , I can explain all these things.<<

I think it would be a really good idea if you did just that, ALJAZEERA_OZ, otherwise there will be a great deal of unnecessary and potentially damaging supposition going on.

>>but there is an important point that we should consider it. "Halal terrorism in Australia" is different with Halal terrorism in Islam" , so if anyone has question about "Halal terrorism" , must specify "in Australia" or "in Islam".<<

Now there's a classic example. This is either deliberately or accidentally confusing, which leaves the way open for every man+dog to apply their own interpretation on it. Presuming that you do actually know what you are talking about, now would be a good time to let us all know.

>>I think it is better I post a new thread about it and answer the questions about this important topic.<<

No need. This is as good a place as any. Please, go right ahead.

Pericles

Why do you make it difficult for others to understand a very simple thing? Why do you go so far? It is very simple:

If the anti terrorism law in Australia will be only for a part of citizens (say Muslims for example), not for all citizens, this means we will have two kinds of terrorist acts:
1. Halal terrorist acts.
2. Haram terrorist acts.

I must be a bit thick too, then.

"If the anti terrorism law in Australia will be only for a part of citizens (say Muslims for example), not for all citizens, this means we will have two kinds of terrorist acts:
1. Halal terrorist acts.
2. Haram terrorist acts."

As I understand it, 'halal' is an Arabic word that means something like 'permitted under Islam', whereas 'haram' means something like 'not permitted under Islam'. In which case, I would have thought that 'halal terrorist acts' would denote those terrorist acts that are allowed under Islam, while 'haram terrorist acts' would refer to those that contravene Islamic principles.

However, ALJAZEERA_OZ seems to be saying that if Australia's anti-terrorism laws only apply to Muslims (and that's a very big if), then that means that there are two kinds of terrorist acts, some of which are proscribed and some of which are not (but without saying which is which).

Sorry, I still don't get it. As somebody else once said, please explain.

ok I will make the questions and answers one by one to explain.

Question:
What is "Halal terrorist acts in Australia"? And what is the difference between "Halal terrorist acts in Australia" and "Haram terrorist acts in Australia?"

Answer:
Halal terrorist acts in Australia are those terrorist acts that the government is silent and quiet if happen, and the victims living free and enjoy of life even after the reports and evidences have been given to the authorities.
Haram terrorist acts in Australia are those terrorist acts that the government immediately will response to them and arrest the suspects even if there is not enough evidence.

Dear Perilous.....

I was thinking to myself when writing that piece "How is Pericles going to minimize and make impotent..a serious issue".. of all the ways I imagined.. the one you came up with was not on my list.

You reveal a fundamental weakness in all you write about Islam or in response to informed people writing about it.. 'Lack of knowledge'.

I don't say that to be cruel or to mock...I'm simply relfecting your own words "I know about as much about the Islamic scriptures as I do about the Christian..not much" something along those lines.. I can't find the exact post.

But this is the thing.. you criticize from ignorance..things written from an informed, broad database of knowledge and real world experience.

That is also why I rip into you and CJ when you take issue with 'me' rather than the actual issue.
At least you do try... CJ has a way to go on that.

The problem with your response, is that..it's wrong. Why? because you call someone 'unbalanced' for doing what 1000s of people are doing:
1)Becoming Muslims
2)Feeling grieved at the treatment of Muslims in trouble spots.
3)Taking the initiative to 'exact revenge'

Your misdirected passion, completely neglects the key point.. which was explained by the Iranian, who referred to the Quran.....copiously.
This is not 'imbalance' it is TYPICAL radical Islamic behavior...and across language and cultural barriers.

You then take isolated cases.. McVeigh, Unibomber.. neither of which can be connected to Christian scriptural teaching in any coherant way.

I still appreciate the challenge to my views, as it does help :)

To stop any confusion please replace the word PERMITTED instead of Halal , and the words NOT PERMITTED instead of Haram.

When we talk about "Halal terrorist acts in Australia" it means those terrorist acts that are permitted by the government, not by Islam.

Still we have not started talking about "Terrorist acts in Islam". maybe tomorrow inshallah (God willing).

Boaz, you are becoming very, very predictable.

First, you pretend that it is essential to "understand" religion, in order to be able to recognize when it is being used for political purposes.

>>But this is the thing.. you criticize from ignorance..things written from an informed, broad database of knowledge and real world experience.<<

My "knowledge and real world experience" is very well informed, thank you. Better than many, I would suggest, particularly in that it does not suffer from being processed through the pin-hole camera of any particular fanatical religious proclivities.

Then you take an element of my position, and completely misunderstand it.

>>You then take isolated cases.. McVeigh, Unibomber.. neither of which can be connected to Christian scriptural teaching in any coherant way<<

Guess what? That was my point. It is not necessary to have religious connections in order to perform murderous acts. Some do, some don't. That means that the fact that this poor misguided youth was a Muslim is, in fact, irrelevant. He's just another nutter.

I am not at all sure where this thread is heading. AlJazeerah_Oz seems to be prevaricating, now that he has been challenged to explain himself - he seems to be a graduate of the Boaz School of Religious Obfuscation. That indicates that he might just be a troll.

Given that Al now wants us to drop the Islamic overtones of Halal and Haram, and Angela84 has disappeared completely, the whole thing was probably a troll for Boaz to jump into his pulpit, yet again.

While we are about it, I wonder if you'd care to take a quick look at this report that I stumbled across this afternoon.

http://www.europol.europa.eu/publications/TESAT/TESAT2007.pdf

It is the Europol (European Police Office) official analysis of terrorist activity in Europe in 2006.

Here's the gist.

There were 498 terrorist attacks in Europe in 2006, only one of which was perpetrated by Islamic terrorists.

It failed.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Not of Islamic terrorists, but of religious nutters who want to foment fear, loathing and hatred against other religions.

Now Perilous.. my predictability is only exceeded by yours.

Either you didn't read the article, or deliberately supressed relevant parts of it which ethically you should have included in such a post.

798 TERRORISM ARRESTS.

QUOTE
Half of all the terrorism arrests were related to
Islamist terrorism. France, Spain, Italy and the
Netherlands had the highest number of arrests
of Islamist terrorist suspects. The majority of the
arrested suspects were born in Algeria,Morocco
and Tunisia and had loose affiliations to North
African terrorist groups, such as the Moroccan
Islamic Combatant Group and the Salafist Group
for Preaching and Combat.
ENDQUOTE

CONCLUSION. You set out to deliberately understate, and minimize a clearly serious and worrisome trend, by misrepresenting the true tone of an official report. I'm sure you were aware of this.
I confess, that at times, I have erred though lack of research, but in this case... you had the information and chose to ignore it.

Makes me wonder about your true motives old son.

I was rather hoping you would bring that up, Boaz.

"Half of all the terrorism arrests were related to Islamist terrorism. France, Spain, Italy and the Netherlands had the highest number of arrests of Islamist terrorist suspects"

498 actual incidents, only one perpetrated by Islamic terrorists.

706 actual arrests, 257 of whom were Islamists.

Fascinating. Does it not strike you that the police are already doing a pretty good job in keeping the lid on this? Does it not occur to you to leave them to get on with it, instead of taking every possible opportunity to fan the flames of bigotry, fear and hatred? Don't you think it might make their job a little easier if you were to stop going around creating new enemies at every turn?

I've asked this of you on a number of occasions, Boaz, and you have yet to even hint at an answer:

"...is the problem likely to get a) larger or b) smaller, if you keep picking at it like an old scab? Are your enemies likely to get a) more or b) less militant, as a result of your endless stream of febrile insults?"

You mentioned earlier in this thread, in relation to Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar:

>>The scary thing about this, is that people LIKE this man could be lurking in our universtities.. just waiting to the 'switched on' by sufficient human/Quran interaction and daily newsbites.<<

Does it not occur to you that if they were to be unfortunate enough to keep bumping into Boazes everywhere they go, it might just have the same effect? To "switch on" to the task of defending themselves against your constant sniping at the things they believe in?

As for:

>>The only way THIS person could have been prevented from doing what he did, (apart from physical restraint) would be to show him that the Quran, Mohammad and Islam, are questionable themselves.<<

That is the misapprehension that creates the problem in the first place.

Simply put:

It. Doesn't. Work. Like. That.

In fact, to do so is insulting, and instantly becomes part of the problem.

Hi ALJAZEERA_OZ

Please give an example for both Halal and Haram Terrorism in Australia.

Thanks

Halal or Haram
Halal=Do all of its victims have to face east while they're getting blown to pieces?
Haram= Doesn't matter which way they are facing while they're murdered
I know, why don't we ask Osama bin Laden??
TO EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD GET A BLOODY LIFE!

Pericles... I disagree that raising awareness of radical Islam will increase the problem. It will simply show what is already there more clearly.

Just as when you pour developer on a print..and the image becomes clearer.. same here. It was already there...but you just couldn't see it.

I do agree that the police are doing a wonderful job. But remember.. police are their to uphold the law as it stands.... failure to recognize dangerous political trends, could have us with horrific laws which STILL have to be enforced by those same police.

Such was the case when Hitler gained power...same police...different laws... the key is POLITICAL power.. and that can be leveraged by skilful manipulators.

This morning I was chatting with a Jewish lady, who's husband and she herself.. are STILL traumatized by the echoes and reality of the holocaust. You probably have little idea just how ingrained the fear of a repeat is on their psyche's.

They are equally afraid of 'new laws' which might cause them problems and exposure to the same kind of hate which caused the original.
Given the symphonic type orchestra I showed in a Hezbollah video with them all singing 'DEATH to Israel'.... I can identify with their fears.

Boaz, if this is your response to my "...is the problem likely to get a) larger or b) smaller, if you keep picking at it like an old scab?" question, I'm not at all sure that you understand it too clearly.

>>Pericles... I disagree that raising awareness of radical Islam will increase the problem. It will simply show what is already there more clearly<<

One man's "raising awareness" is another man's vicious attack.

It's like calling Hitler's (you brought him into the discussion, not I) speech at the Nürnberg Rallies "raising awareness of radical Judaism". 'It simply showed the German people what was already there, only more clearly'.

>>failure to recognize dangerous political trends, could have us with horrific laws<<

It is obviously fashionable amongst the Christian rabble-rousers to rush around saying "Sharia is coming, Sharia is coming", in a bid to frighten the children.

The reason this is so insulting is that it shows such a sneering contempt of the Australian people, who - we are reliably informed by said rabble-rousers - are so stupid that they do not see that their charitable and tolerant attitudes are in fact abject submission to the will of an alien force.

And as for this...

>>This morning I was chatting with a Jewish lady, who's husband and she herself.. are STILL traumatized by the echoes and reality of the holocaust. You probably have little idea just how ingrained the fear of a repeat is on their psyche's. They are equally afraid of 'new laws' which might cause them problems and exposure to the same kind of hate which caused the original.<<

And what, exactly, are these laws?

How will they be framed, by whom, when, and how would they then become the law of the land?

Preposterous nonsense.

Pericles.. I applaud your faith in the average Aussie to make up his or her own mind... truly....

The main problem with this is as follows:

People can only make up their mind based on adequate information....

Now.. example. I was reading a large book this morning, called "What is Islam" and in that, it refers to 'Jihad' among many other things.

The untrained eye will read this and not see the SERIOUS key words and how they hide the true nature of what is being said.

"Islam does not believe in killing 'innocent' civilians".

Should I remind you how the radical Muslim regards Western Kaffirs ?

Enter stage left 'Abu Izzadeen' UK "NO KAFFIR IS INNOCENT"

Then.. nestled among the warm fuzzy terminology is this gem.

There are only 3 reasons for military Jihad...(The first 2 don't matter)

3/ Where Da'wah is prohited.

What this means in reality is.. if Australia prohibited the proclamation of Islam... we are a target for military attack.

Most people will read this chapter without even seeing this.

But there is more. Do you think Susan Carland would have converted if she knew that in Islam her testimony is only worth half that of a man? or..that she is described as all manner of snare and corrupter simply because she is a woman in the Hadith...

NOW.. the REAL problem...

Under our current law, IF.. I went to Monash Uni, and stood outside her office or faculty with signs to the above effect.. the LAW would be applied to me as it was to the 2 Danny's.

So..here is the sequence.

1/ Make a law which prevents insulting Islam (or any faith, except Christianity ...in effect)

2/ Promote Islam with sugar coating and minimal, selective information .

You and I both know how the ICV would treat Kactuz regarding his recent posts.

So.... my response still stands.

I pray that neither you or me or our families become victims of any bomb created out of the 400 kg of Ammonium Nitrate recently stolen from a train in Newcastle.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20646620-421,00.html

Oz
My apologies- I got side tracked.
Permission given by Allah. That’s huge. There are so many Muftis and teachers.
I will stay within Australia to make it easier and address matters of interest.
You won’t be surprised I am sure if I raise Animal Welfare firstly.

I find it interesting that Australian Muslim leaders have spoken out about Live Animal Export being unnecessarily cruel while our Christian Leaders have remained silent most of them]
Here is the Media Release from Dr Ali the last President of AFIC [Australian Federation of Islamic Council and councils.
http://www.livexports.com/
I am yet to see a similar step taken by our Christian Leaders?
This is something we hassle poor Boazie about.

I think OZ there is only right and wrong. Good people and bad people. There are no shades of grey or in between. Right or wrong. Lawful or unlawful for all man kind.

Good Muslim and Christians also people only want to share kindness to all others and Gods creatures and have compassion and love in their heart.
Then you get just like we do some real dick heads that call for a holy war and tell their people to kill the west until the last drop of infidel blood is gone. [Or words similar]
Like that idiot bin larden. Hope I didn’t get the spelling wrong I might offend the prick.
In Australia I think if we knew we had people wanting to wage a holy war then they should be goaled.
In other words they should not be able to use the defense that they were only following Allah or the Koran just because they had bin larden as their their teacher.
In other words if you have had a dodgy spiritual teacher you should not be able to use that as a defense in our justice system.
Australia is peaceful the way it is.

Oz

I would also like to add I don’t think any of us can afford to live in the stone ages.
We used to get up Bozies nose to get attention from him by saying. Hey Boaz- how come you tell us to follow that book when in those days they used to believe that the world was flat and people with epileptic fits or mental illness were possessed by the devil?

Can’t you see Bozie the Church has to get a bit more up to date and modern before they loose their members? Clearly modern day have proved that wrong.
I can’t say we ever got a reply despite our taunting the poor guy- except once he said- [I think] yes they were.] The ones the lord healed “were” possessed by the devil”?
`Let us pray`
We left it at that.
One day we put up a comment offering a counter argument for Boaz for Muslims just like we had for Christians.
We asked him to ask- How come the Koran teacher’s alcohol and no sinning, bad woman etc-but it’s taught and believed by ‘some’ Muslims that the so called Maters and suicide bombers such as ones that flew the planes into the World trade center are rewarded with all the wine and women they can handle?
The comparisons are exactly the same Oz.
Its time we all grew up and learned to get along- and for goodness sake update our relevant books such as the bible or the Koran.
Allah in particular I believe must have and also a clever business man.
The new Mufti has given his blessings to show compassion to Animals by pre stunning. I think he will make a great Australian leader for all Australians including Christians and we are asking Christian leaders to do the same regarding Kosha.
We will be 'insisting on it' with the support of our Muslim brothers and sisters of this wonderful country.
blessings and peace to all.

September 11 2007
Lets we forget

"Lets we forget"

Good idea. Let's start with this silly thread :)

Ok I give examples:

Example for Haram terrorist acts in Australia: Dr Haneef from India.

Example for Halal terrorist acts in Australia: Dr Suter from Sunrise.

Now next question:

Question: Is there any difference between the victims or suspects of "Halal terrorism in Australia" and "Haram terrorism in Australia"?
Answer: Yes there is.

Next

Question: Is the difference in the skin colour or race or sex or religion or other things?
Answer: The difference is only in religion. The victims or suspects of Haram terrorism are Muslims and the victims or suspects of Halal terrorism are Non Muslims. Race or skin colour or nationality background is not the issue, only the religion.

I will be back soon for other Questions and Answers :)