I'm not talking about criminals shooting criminals, or innocent people being shot, or even armed holdups, although those events are common enough occurrences in Australia. No, what I am talking about is the epidemic of guns being "stolen" from supposedly law abiding licensed gun owners at an alarming rate, nearly 60 guns are being stolen a week across Australia (reported by the 'Herald Sun' newspaper), there are 45,000 missing, presumed stolen, guns in Australia, or they have disappeared overseas. How come, many would say; Are not legal guns supposedly to be locked in a secure gun safe, away from possible thieves? The answer is yes, but mysteriously legal guns have a habit of being "stolen" from their law abiding owners. Lets cut to the chase and expose the truth. Criminals are using legal gun owners, persons with no criminal record (they call them cleanskins) to channel gun into the illegal firearms black market. Research shows actual thefts account for a very small percentage of the illegal firearms market, where as the vast majority of guns supplied to the criminal class are provided by licensed gun owners at a price. So next time you hear your local newsagent or service station, has been held up by an armed robber, or an innocent person has been shot in a botched holdup, or someone was shot dead in the next street, the gun could well have come complements of a "law abiding" gun licensed citizen. The answer is very simple, disarm all those who have no real purpose for owning a gun, the weekend Rambo's, the target shooters and the so called collectors. Then gun crime might become a thing of the past in Australia.

Paul, I note with interest and some alarm, that you don't propose the same for "stolen vehicles". Don't the statistics indicate the deaths and serious injuries from licensed, registered vehicles stolen from their law abiding owners and subsequently used in illegal acts are quite concerning? Proportionally higher than the deaths from firearms related offences as I understand it ? I'd be interested to hear your opinion please?

Dear Paul,

I'm not sure if gun crime is going to become a thing
of the past in Australia. Many things would need to change.

For example, according to the findings of a 2022 Deakin
University study - it's easier than ever for criminals
to get guns illegally in Australia.

" He is a Caucasian male aged 41. He is a man likely to have
been in the youth justice system and almost certainly has
contacts to organised crime."

" And he knows a guy that can get you a gun."

This is a picture of the average Australian who operates in
the country's illegal firearms market based on the findings
of the 2022 Deakin University study.

The researchers were attempting to build a picture of the
illegal gun trade in the Australian underworld. They found
that buying an illegal gun in Australia could be as easy as a
trip to the supermarket for those in the know.

There's more at the following link:

http://abc.net.au/news/2022-09-04/illegal-firearms-shooting-police-gun-crime/101306628

Of course police have policy practices and are working towards
solutions. However criminals have learned how to evade the
standard policing practices.

A solution offered in a Queensland government funding program
is something that possibly other states could consider.
The program is designed to help men who want to leave criminal
life.

We need directed action to change the embedded culture and
behaviour. And by providing opportunities for men to leave
the criminal life and get out if they want to is a step in the
right direction.

We were shown a video of a violent brawl of three teenage girls against another teenage girl had us all stunned yesterday. I asked if the video has been given to the Police & we were told yes but they can't take any action because the victim's grandfather is too scared about repercussions & won't press charges.
The three were indigenous & the other a caucasian but it wasn't a race related brawl I was told because they are just as violent amongst each other on a very frequent basis. A caucasian man was chased & bashed badly by two caucasian blokes & same again with the Police.
Now, both victims presented to Hospital yet not even that prompted Police to follow up or so I was told.
I would have thought acts of bodily harm would naturally be followed up by Police !
So, all criminals have to do is to threaten victims not to report to the Police & all will be good for them next time !
Is it just me or is there a critically serious flaw in our Justice system ?

What utter rubbish! There is no epidemic of gun crime in Australia. We all abor the deaths of those young police officers and the neighbour, but you really have to be right off your trolley to think the horrible episode is part of an 'epidemic'.

Hi Albie,

Happy to address your queries, your comparing stolen vehicles to stolen firearms is chalk and cheese. Firstly there is little stolen vehicle fraud in Australia, whereby a vehicle is reported stolen when in fact that is not the case, and fraud has taken place. There are cases of stolen vehicle reported "theft", but in fact it is prearranged "theft", usually relating to insurance fraud. The vast majority of vehicles reported stolen have genuinely been stolen, with no fault attributed to the owner. In the case of guns that is not so, for the nearly 60 guns a week reported "stolen", in the vast majority of cases it is a prearranged fraud, as the criminal wanting the gun is prepared to pay five or six times the guns legal value. With only 3.5% of Australians holding a gun licence, how come there are some 45,000 missing firearms, considering the required security for keeping those firearms. The conclusion is there is a large number of licensed "law abiding" gun owners who are willing to commit a crime themselves to make a large profit from those wanting to use a firearm for criminal purposes.

ttbn, when your comprehension improves I may address what you say, read the title, then read my opening post, and maybe you'll comprehend what I am saying that there is an epidemic of guns being "stolen" (actually fraud) from supposedly law abiding licensed gun owners, for the purpose of supplying legal guns, illegally to criminals.

Indy, these days police have the power to charge a person when they suspect a crime has been committed, the normal requirements of evidence are required. The days are long gone when a victim had the power to press or withdraw charges. Get with the times.

In my opinion we can't tighten-up the F/As laws any more than they are now. Having worked in licensing myself most shooters abide with the existing F/A laws, and any further restrictions might only serve to drive the many lawful license holders underground.

It should be pointed out many police are recreational shooters themselves. And they, like all applicant(s), are required to jump through the hoops as it were like any other ordinary citizen. There's an old mantra in policing - to aid the introduction of tougher laws (irrespective of what those laws might be), you 'must' take the public along for the ride - In other words you need the public's cooperation. You simply can't browbeat the public into submission or you'll lose all semblance of public co-operation. After all, it's the public themselves who first draw police attention to a crime (the complainant), not the other way round.

Essentially police are more reactive than proactive. And on the occasion they are proactive it's generally comes from intel. emanating from a public source. In my experience this applies to all crimes. Without public cooperation, the police are essentially ineffectual.

Get with the times.
Paul1405,
Tell that to those Qld Police Officers !

A reference or two would help, will somebody give Paul one?

It's the mentality leading to criminal behaviour in general not just incidents involving firearms that is the real concern.
Young kids are brainwashed by incompetent & immature educators that they can literally do as they please because even their parents are prevented by Law from dishing out discipline when it is clearly the only option.
The very same woman who showed us that video yesterday also told us that her own daughter got a DV out against her mother when she smacked her daughter for smashing the TV, the toilet seat & punching holes into the hallway walls.
Social Services latched onto the fact that Mum has a beer after work & recorded the mother for "drinking" & the daughter is exploiting her new powers to no end.
The bureaudroids in Social Services, the Judiciary etc really need to be appraised by normal people not by their their just as goofy & out-of-touch & socially inept peers !
Only then & after a term in National Service will this sickening mentality become less prevalent & curbed.

Stealing guns is not gun crime. It might be part of a stealing "epidemic", but it's not a gun crime epidemic.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications
Australian Institute of Criminology.

“In 2018 there were 847 reported incidents of firearm theft in which 2,425 firearms were stolen. This represents a 15 percent increase in incidents and a 35 percent increase in stolen firearms since 2008–09. Most thefts targeted residential premises with an average of three firearms stolen in each incident. The largest proportion of thefts occurred in regional parts of Australia, indicating a shift from major cities as the primary site of theft incidents. The majority of stolen firearms were in firearm safes at the time of the theft.”

Note that firearm thefts went up after the Greens revealed the localities in which there were the modt firearms.
This was either a cynical and potentially dangerous exercise or a deliberate way to help the criminal element.

Knife crime is far more prevalent in Australia than gun crime yet there are no calls to ban knives.
What Australia really needs is uniform firearms laws, not State by State variations.

The weapon of choice is of no importance, the mentality to use a weapon is the real issue.
Social engineers & mindless Academics have hounded parental & other discipline for decades. Isn't it high time these people get side-lined into positions where they can no longer do so much harm to society ?
If I had my way I would even charge some of them with being instrumental in the rise of crime !

Maybe its a play on words ttbn, that went over your head. As for this gem;

"We all abor (sic) the deaths of those young police officers and the neighbour, but you really have to be right off your trolley to think the horrible episode is part of an epidemic", no you don't not when you read what's next. I started a thread three days before the shooting in Queensland, under the heading; "Could A Reich Citizens Movement Exist In Australia". Having a concern about right wing nut jobs in this country. You poo-hooed my concerns with this comment the same day; "The movement already exists in the form of the Greens Party and its sympathisers in the ALP." Three days later three right wing nut jobs shot dead in an ambush, two police officers and an innocent civilian. You must like making yourself look like a silly old fool! You do it often enough!

Hi Issy welcome aboard,

"Note that firearm thefts went up after the Greens revealed the localities in which there were the modt firearms.
This was either a cynical and potentially dangerous exercise or a deliberate way to help the criminal element."

No sure what you are on about there;

MODT; "Memorandum for the deposit of title deed or MODT is applicable for all home loan borrowers. It is essentially an undertaking given by you that you are depositing the title documents of the property with the bank at your own free will in return for a loan."

That sounds very 'Dennis Denuto' from you; "Yes your honour, its Mabo, its the vibe, yes that's it, its the vibe."

That charge was shown to be nonsense put forward by the off the planet right wing nut jobs from the Shooters and Hooters Party. The mob who have a policy to arm 5 year old's for so called "self defence". Good luck with that one!

Hi Ho Indy,

"The weapon of choice is of no importance, the mentality to use a weapon is the real issue."

When I'm being chased by a 'Gun Nut', a fully paid up 5 year old member of the Shooters and Hooters Party, who is claiming "self defence" as his valid reason, because he thinks I tried to steal his bag of 'Tiny Tators' and is intent on dispatching me to the never-never for my crime, I hope his weapon of choice is a pop gun and not an AK-47

Seems that losing one’s Firearms Licence and being considered “ not a fit and proper person” can really affect some people; potential or actual nut jobs.
Have you reapplied yet Paul?

Whatever is going so wrong in society is 99% caused by do-gooders interfering in peoples' lives !
They managed to turn decent people into criminal-minded ones !

Indyvidual

Not only interfering in other people's lives, but rabbiting on about things that are none of their business, and things they can do nothing about. Nobody gives a toss about some nobody's hysterics about a non-existent "Epidemic Of Gun Crime In Australia".

All the bad things done with guns are done by people who have no respect for the law in the first place, and those who have access (which can't be stopped by laws) to guns illegally.

Laws work only for people prepared to obey them. All the big mouth politicians, do-gooders and hysterics are totally impotent, and full of shite.

Hi There Issy,

Checked the cupboard, and there was one last 'Porky Award' left for the year, and true to form its gone to YOU! I've never owned a gun, nor had the desire to own a gun, never applied for a licence to own a gun, or ever intend to apply. As you will be most familiar with the work of Dr Zigfried Von Slop and his research into why 'nut jobs' want to own guns. You would be familiar with the gun as a falix, how often has a fellow Gunnie like Dear Eye Dick, said to you down at your local shooting gallery; "Issy, lets go out the back and compare 'Bazookas", I sure it happens to you all the time.

Now about your criminal history, gun possession, SP bookmaking, being a fully paid up member of the Shooters and Hooters and joining the SSAA nut club and wearing the uniform. Please explain your checked criminal past.

Goebbels,
I’d far rather believe my source than a proved liar such as yourself, the nickname ‘Paulliar’ was not given for nothing.
Such vindictiveness as you have shewn must have a deep psychological underpinning.

Issy, slings and arrows,

You haven't got any sources, being on the sauce is not the same as having sources. As for nicknames, any name like that give me was applied by the forums leading nefarious liar and reprobate. Remember "Sticks and stones and bloody guns, might break my bones but words will never hurt me!"

BTW are you a "CLEANSKIN" by any chance? My sources tell me you are.

Is Mise,

The village idiot has never let complete ignorance of a subject or lack of facts get in the way of him climbing on his soapbox and ranting on the topic.

It is typical of the village idiots aka the greens who want to smash everything because of a few criminals when there are alternatives to this fascist jackbootery.

In other countries, there are consequences for not taking care of one's weapons including large fines and permanent revocation of gun licenses for life. Similarly, the consequences for possessing a stolen weapon carry heavy sentences such as 5 years.

I personally have not possessed a firearm since my teens but spent several years competitively target shooting with a .22 rifle and occasionally a .303 rifle. At the time it was a lot of fun something that the village idiots want to stop at all costs.

Get a good look at the guys face standing behind Zelensky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8v3rvfkpfE&t=11s
No doubt he's just been informed that he and his buddies can't strategically withdraw, and will be fed into the meat grinder.
- Because Zelensky's western 'partners' say so.

He's probably thinking about shooting Zelensky himself.
Looks like morale has hit a new low for the Ukrainians.
It's going to get a lot worse for them morale-wise when Bahkmut falls.
"What the hell was it even for", they'll probably be asking themselves.
- Feeding men into the meat grinder to buy time, that won't change the inevitable outcome.

People out in the backwoods of America need guns.
They seem to have a serious dogman problem.
Skip to 5 mins in to see what he sees in his backyard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Xh56_ukSs
Keep in mind this was during a live stream.

Here's another one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsba-31J430&t=230s
and another.
http://youtu.be/_vGJrldKLOY

Apparently shooting them just makes them more angry and vengeful.
I've watched a lot of these videos and story encounters.

It's unreasonable for me to think all the stories are true;
- But it's also unreasonable to think all the people are lying.

https://www.traveller.com.au/australia-the-land-of-the-idiot-gi36oy

If we were to ban ALL guns and bows, and arrows, and yes knives. A human being set upon killing another, would find an alternate method of killing. It's not the gun, the knife or the bow that kills, it's in man's nature. If we can modify his nature and his need for revenge, or curb his hatred, or his perceived, albeit fallacious reasoning. Perhaps then, we can curb his need to kill. Fortunately most human beings manage to control these instinctive urges, save for madness.

Those people who claim, that the removal of ALL guns would see the murder rate fall, in my experience they're essentially misinformed. Other means of taking a life would be found and used. If there's a willingness, there's always a way.

Those who intend to kill do not require a weapon ! Weapons are a mere convenience for those
whom Social engineering has so much indoctrinated with the notion of individual Rights that such people just become angrier by the day !

Lets get real, those who advocate for the wholesale ownership of guns, people associated with and supporting the Shooters and Hooters Party, the white ants of gun control laws. Then there is the SSAA membership, gun owning sycophants, supported and financed by the North American NRA, nut jobs who given half a chance would flood Australia with unrestricted guns. None of the aforementioned have the slightest interest in the well being, or safety of their fellow citizens. As long as their perverted pleasure is being met with guns its; STUFF THE REST OF YOU!

My, my, the vindictiveness of the cancelled licence.

Hi Issy,

With no argument to offer in response, I thought you had invented this "cancelled license" nonsense as your last resort of deflection. Possibly not, you may actually have convinced yourself its true, just as you believe in the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Unfortunately the various forms of dementia disease are a growing problem in Australia, and I'm not just talking about your constant bed-wetting, sheets can be changed. This growing problem particularly affecting the octogenarian male of the species. THAT'S YOU ISSY!

Anyway the little folk sent you this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSNTxXkA50U

Merry Xmas Issy......and enjoy that shiny new 'Howitzer' the family put in your front yard, you can start shelling the neighbourhood this avo, while everyone is resting after their big Xmas noshup! Share the joy ISSY!

Goebbels,
Have a good day and stop smoking thar rubbish.

Issy, dear Issy.

I don't smoke rubbish! Instead I drink quality Scotch, a bit of a tradition, the family, aka my son, gives me a fine bottle of the "Elixir of life". This year a bottle of 'Johnny Black', Johnny is a dear friend, and I put a slight dint in him last evening, with a few tipples.

How was that 'Howitzer'? Old Charlies at number 7, said your aim was off, you missed his house, but scored a direct hit on the chook shed. His Rhode Island Red's are now featherless and homeless, and he thinks they have gone off the lay as well. Unfortunately the local Scout Hall, didn't fair any better! Its match wood, now the Oomedome !st Scot Troop are now 'whoreless" Stan at number 5 said to pass on a message; "Issy me's garden shed is now cactus, thanks to you, it took me 3 day to put that bloody 'easy to erect' Chinese shed from Bunno's together!"

BTW Issy,

I'm not as rich as you, you being a "professional gambler" and all, you can afford the good stuff!

Thanks for sending the video on your latest business venture.

I'll share with others, that's Issy in the dark glasses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aelWhqrndXE&t=89s

A far right 'gun nut' has shot and killed three, and wounded another three in the Kurdish community of Paris. This has sparked riots, as Kurds are fearing for their safety from race hating far right extremists.

Unfortunately, we have those in Australia who want to see a proliferation of guns in our society, I have named those organisations previously. Such action would see an increase in race hate crime here.

Goebbels,
And whilst “naming” you gave not a single reference ever to back up your fraudulent claims.

Hi Ho Issy,

Not so, a check of the official web sites of both the Shooters and Hooters Party, I recommend the NSW branchof S & H, being the local mafia where you are, other state branches are similar. Likewise the SSAA have policy statements on their official web site, advocating wholesale gun ownership in Australia. They use the feel good "law-abiding citizens" nonsense, the Train Mob could have been classed as "law-abiding citizens" until they shot and killed three people.

Here you are;
http://www.ssaa.org.au/
http://www.shootersfishersandfarmers.org.au/

BTW Issy,

I should add, criminals can easily obtain firearms through the black market (something you have not refuted) by the use of "Cleanskins" (Those "law-abiding citizens" gun owners, the S & H and SSAA like to rabbit on about). This discussion is about the "Cleanskins", Issy are you a "Cleanskin"?

7% of licensed gun owners have reported "gun theft", averaging 3 weapons at a time. Issy how many guns have you had stolen? Actually I believe you are a very responsible gun owner, and if all were like you, I wouldn't be on here so much prattling on about the subject.

Nary a reference, just obfuscation.
Why did the Greens want to get rid of Sniffer dogs?

If you are that bored over Christmas, start another thread instead of restarting boring BS.

Hi Issy,

Both the Shooters and Hooters Party, and the SSAA put great stock in their claim that legal gun ownership, through licencing, is only for "law-abiding citizens", an oft quoted phrase by those organisations to justify gun ownership. I say that is a nonsensical claim which has no basis in fact. I give you three names of people who committed murder with a firearm whilst licensed; Ian Turnbull, John Edwards and Nathaniel Train. If you can justify the three mentioned as "law-abiding citizens" then I say I'm wrong on gun ownership, and you are right.

And I'm not even talking about the number of licensed gun owners operating as "Cleanskins" facilitating gun ownership for criminals.

The clock is ticking!

The silly old Xmas Turkey, ttbn is again trying to tell others on this forum what they should or shouldn't do. Are you the new il Duce? You think you are, toddle off, join anther crack-pot political party that can take an old fool for a ride.

When someone claiming to be indigenous but is not & steals a firearm in a break-in then the weapon owner gets fined but not the thief. Well, in Qld anyway ! Civil Libertarians boss said "Sorry, cant help, we're batting for the other team" !

Of course the three that you mention were law abiding citizens, they were judged so by the Commissioner of Police, in the case of Edwards the gun clubs would not accept him until overridden by the Commissioner.
Suggest you take it up with the Commissioner.

SSAA membership stands at 212,142 as of October 2022 (audited financial members) if the SSAA ever gets political then you’ll have something to worry about.

Hi Ho again Issy,

"Of course the three that you (Paul1405) mention were law abiding citizens", I say no, they were licensed gun owners and not law abiding, puts to lie the claim that legal gun ownership is limited to law abiding citizens. I would agree as an ideal that is a fine aspiration, but the reality is somewhat different. At one time Al Capone would be judged a law abiding citizen, making Al eligible for a gun licence under S&H and SSAA criteria. There is however a failure of the system which allows non-law abiding citizens to hold a gun licence. Can you explain this; non-law abiding citizens holding gun licences.

explain this; non-law abiding citizens holding gun licences.
Paul1405,
Well, the most likely reason would be incompetent, Leftie supporting bureaudroids (familiar to you ?) not doing what they should be doing i.e. look at applications one by one instead of throwing them into the approved basket without looking !
Some of that blood is on their hands !

They were law abiding citizens when they were licensed.
Turnbull wss a primary producer, a class of citizen that the Greens and Gun Control Australia agree should be able to have firearm licenses and Train was a citizen well respected in the community and considered to be an outstanding school teacher.
Edwards is the only doubtful one and gun clubs rejected him until they were over ruled by the Police Commissioner, as you, by now well know.

In the cases of Edwards and Train all the warning signs were ther but no one in authorit chose to heed them they chose instead to ignore.

Anyway firearms laws will probably be redundant twenty years hence.
The advances in electronics and miniaturisation will see to that.
http://hackaday.com/2018/07/12/you-can-now-buy-a-practical-gauss-gun/

Ho, ho Issy,

Obviously the 3 named were not law abiding citizens, as they all committed murder. So like the S&H Party and the SSAA are you prepared to accept non law abiding citizens, in this case murderers, as legally licensed gun owners. Since you can't differentiate between the actual law abiding, and the non law abiding. How about no one gets a licence until there is in place an absolute fool proof system of licencing of only law abiding citizens. You will need a very powerful crystal ball for that. Agree?

It does concern me that you would believe the 3 named were "law abiding citizens". Can you guarantee 100% that no person issued a firearm licence, will never use said weapon for criminal purposes. If you can then I will concede you are right, and I am wrong.

BTW, you failed to justify the 3 mentioned as law abiding citizens, although you claimed they were.

The advances in electronics and miniaturisation will see to that.
Is Mise,
If only such advances could be made in clamping down on the sociologists meddling in peoples' lives which has caused so much grief & tragedy !
Is it any wonder some people eventually lose it ? Much of this gun crime could be prevented if we had a National Service & let parents discipline their children. It's because of these social "experts" dictating their abnormal ideas to normal people which denies normal people to develop a healthy mentality. Instead, abnormal mentality is pushed in our schools denying the young a normal growing up !

‘ BTW, you failed to justify the 3 mentioned as law abiding citizens, although you claimed they were.“
How dense are you?
Everyone is law abiding until they break the law.

Good idea no licences until a foolproof system is devised, could cut the road tool to almost nil and reduce pollution dramatically; have you got any other brilliant ideas?

OK Issy,

You acknowledge that non law abiding citizens can hold a firearm licence and there is no mechanism to prevent this. Why should those of us not wanting guns in the community, have to be put into a situation of danger from criminals due to a dysfunctional system that allows such people to obtain a gun licence and firearms legally?

You haven't commented on "Cleanskins", the 7% of so called law abiding gun owners who will report the "theft" of guns (average 3) in their position. Considering guns supposedly are to be stored in ones own personal "Fort Knox", will you agree that seems a very high instance of gun theft. Considering a gun can fetch up to 5 or 6 times its original purchase price on the black market that may be a factor in why so many guns are stolen. Once in the hands of criminals these "legal guns" are used to commit everything from robbery to murder, what do the Gunnies propose to do about that to make the community safe from armed criminals?

Re: Law abiding citizens.

Nathaniel Train for one was not a law abiding citizen.
He broke lockdown and illegally crossed into QLD from NSW.

Now me personally we could have a discussion on the effectiveness and rightfulness / legality of the lockdowns and the risk and repercussions of spreading covid, how serious it really was, as well as the effectiveness and side effects of the vaccines, all of which are kind-of dubious.

Nonetheless he was willing to put the state at risk, older peoples lives at risk in a remote area that probably had less access to medical facilities.

I've always said that 'Everybody has the right to live however they choose so long as it doesn't harm others' well that so called 'law abiding citizen' wanted to put a local community and entire state at risk, for what he wanted so I don't think much of him honestly.

Re: Let parents discipline their children

What do you mean exactly?
Smack your kids only in extreme situations like for example when its 5 years old and runs out onto a busy road?
Smack shite out of your kids as the standard go to punishment everytime it annoys you or tests your patience? (as kids sometimes do)
Discipline your kids as in 'make em do push-ups' so that you can calm down when it annoys you and then you decide a fair punishment?

My girlfriends 8 yo daughter has been in 2 foster homes.
You'd think she'd be a screwed up kid but no.
You'd think she'd be the type of kid that spacks out and chucks tantrums? No.
You want to know something?
Her mum has never smacked her once in her life, she's a great kid.
She's heard every swear work under the sun, but chooses not to ever use them.

I could let a dozen swear words roll off my tongue and beg her to swear, even try to offer her $20 if you swear but no, she won't do it.

What happens when you start smacking your kids, and they start developing an 'I don't give a shite about anything' attitude
What happens when the smackings become common place and they start wishing they'd never been born and hate you for it?
What happens when they grow up a bit more and start using drugs and resort to crime.

Be careful about smacking your kids, you may not fully appreciate where that path may lead
You may not like having an out of control teenager doing drugs and crime on your hands
- That's all I can say about that.

Ref. stolen guns and firearms owners arranging with criminals to have their guns stolen, where are the references to successful prosecutions?
Or is this merely conjecture?

On cancelling licencing, how about liquor licences,?
Alcohol is involved in more murders than guns (ABS figures) so cancelling all licences would not only reduce the murder rate but also the incidence of road trauma.

“ Two teenage boys have been charged with murder and attempted murder after a woman was killed at her home in north Brisbane on Boxing Day.

Emma Lovell, 41, was fatally stabbed in the chest after allegedly disturbing the offenders inside her North Lakes home at about 11.30pm on Monday night, police said.

Her husband Lee Lovell, 43, was stabbed in the back.‘
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-27/woman-killed-in-home-invasion-at-north-lakes/101809984

I knew that there was some reason why some people want some means of self defence.

But, hey, putting criminals in danger is a no-no., especially when they are out on bail.

Hmm I wonder if those kids were smacked and treated badly by their parents growing up.
- Chances are they probably were, and they'll work the system by using it as a defense come court day.
And the government support workers will scream about these kids horrible upbringing, and they'll get a slap on the wrist after going to juvey and bragging about their crimes which will give them street cred and reputation amongst all the other screwed up kids.
- And they'll be back out on the streets to rob and harm more innocent members of society all over again.

Probably only wanted money and cigarettes...
I spose we should be grateful they weren't armed, or we'd have 2 people dead.

- Move on, nothing to see here -

G'day Issy,

Lots of deflection there. Please explain why 7% of gun owners have firearms stolen, at an average of 3 guns per theft. Research by Deakin University shows that the use of "cleanskins" ( gun licensed people with no criminal record) being used by criminals to stage fake thefts of guns, where the "cleanskin" is paid 5 or 6 times the legal market value of the gun.

As for "self defence" with tens of thousands of ordinary citizens being armed, up to 97% of the population, note I'm not saying law abiding citizens only, as I've shown non-law abiding can be licensed to own a guns as well. For every criminal foiled by an armed citizen, there would be dozens of innocents shot, including family, friends, neighbours, strangers and the gun owners themselves. A Dodge City solution, to a problem. That one you got straight from the foreign masters North American NRA.

Who said anything about home owners or other innocents being armed with guns?
Seems that you have some strange fixation about guns.
It is an offence in Australia to keep/possess anything for the purpose of self defence.

The citizens have a right to defend themselves recognized by law the same Law that denies them the keeping of anything for the purpose.

It’s OK to keep oven spray in the kitchen but a can in the bedroom is a criminal offence.

Greens and GCA are happy with innocent people being murdered in their own homes so long as the criminals are not endangered.

"Research by Deakin University shows that the use of "cleanskins" ( gun licensed people with no criminal record) being used by criminals to stage fake thefts of guns, where the "cleanskin" is paid 5 or 6 times the legal market value of the gun."

That's fairly believable.
But how widespead it actually is, the real thefts from the staged ones, who knows.

"As for 'self defence' with tens of thousands of ordinary citizens being armed, up to 97% of the population..."

97% ? - That's ridiculous. (completely unbelieveable)

9.7 citizens out of 10 own firearms...
- come on, that's not true and you know it.

- Just trying to keep it real here...

That's all I can say about that.
Armchair Critic,
Well, nothing positive or pro-active anyway. Your girlfriend's daughter is obviously a good kid & doesn't need any discipline !
When there is no problem then there's obviously no need for discipline. I brought up the subject of discipline because too many kids aren't disciplined.
Denial or a little smack achieves way better outcomes than giving in to kids spoiled by stupid parents.
Anyhow, it's not about punishing kids for the sake of punishing. But too many kids are punished by not being disciplined & this won't surface until they get older & when they're beyond adopting responsibility & respect ! For such young people only a National Service scheme can pull them up !

Why would criminals pay such exorbitant prices for firearms when they can be made cheaply?
There is plenty on the net on how to manufacture, not only guns but ammunition and explosives.
Much of Deakin University’s study depends on evidence from criminals; the type of people renowned for telling the truth.

the type of people renowned for telling the truth.
Is Mise,
I'd be inclined to trust the criminal more than the Uni outfit ! At least criminals don't ask for millions of Dollars funding with the predictable outcome of the taxpayer getting nothing in return.

Hey Indyvidual,
"Denial or a little smack achieves way better outcomes than giving in to kids spoiled by stupid parents."
Maybe, maybe not.
I was just trying to lay out an instance where kids can go the other way if they perceive the punishment or treatment by their parents to be unfair.
You risk ending up with an angry disturbed dysfunctional kid with a 'I don't care' attitude.
- And it can downward spiral from there.

- And yes she is an exceptionally good kid.
I'd say it's a almost a bit of an anomaly, how a kid can go through 2 foster homes and come out of it far better than most kids.
But she gets a lot of love and is treated very well by her Mum, so in some ways it's also no surprise and a credit to her Mum, and maybe a little bit of me too.

I always told her Mum that
'It's a Parents responsibility is to ensure your childs physical and emotional wellbeing',
'And that this is non-negotiable - if you fail to do this you fail your kids'.
- 'But if you get this right, the rest should automatically fall into place'.
(It's not rocket science)

She even got the Smith Family scholarship last year, does really well in mostly all her subjects and the ones shes average in, it's not for lack of trying.
She was recommended by teachers and the school as being the most deserving for the scholarship.
She has a bright future.

I don't disagree with you that kids need something positive to keep them from going off the rails.

"Who said anything about home owners or other innocents being armed with guns?"

Your very own NSW Shooters and Hooters Party;

Their firearms policy; "Support family and home protection and continue to support measures increasing a person’s right to self-defence."

Seems that these people have some strange fixation about guns.

"Greens and GCA are happy with innocent people being murdered in their own homes so long as the criminals are not endangered." A disgusting claim not worth commenting on. Give us a reference!

In the horrific case of the murder of Emma Lovell in her home in North Lakes Brisbane on Boxing Day by 17 year old home invaders. The solution to this kind of outrage starts long before the act itself, it starts with failures in the (juvenile) justice system, which put these monsters back on the streets. When these animals are in the act, its too late for "self defence" with guns, nives or bows and arrows, it should not have come to such a situation in the first place. I hold the minister, government and the justice system responsible, as they are also culpable in Emma's death, and no gun will protect the innocent from their incompetent acts. At the next Qld state election I wont be preferencing Labor, they have failed the test.

“ Greens and GCA are happy with innocent people being murdered in their own homes so long as the criminals are not endangered." A disgusting claim not worth commenting on. Give us a reference! ‘

Gladly, the Greens state in their firearms policy that guns should never be used for self defence.

It’s at the moment of attack that self defence is most necessary, as I posted years ago, I was attacked in broad daylight in Clarence St in Sydney’s CBD, and I slammed my attacker against a shop wall and raked his shins with one of my work boots.
He whined that he was only joking, before hobbling away, well I wasn’t.

I agree with your comments on the justice system

Maybe, maybe not.
Armchair Critic,
How much more evidence of the failings of the social engineered "Don't slap" do people need before they see what's happening. It IS THE cause of all the dysfunction in society now !
"Experts" with no life experience interfering by thinking they can legislate natural instinct ?
Isn't it time these Uni mutts are told to study something that can make them be of use to society instead of being the problem-causing burden where there wouldn't be a problem if they let parents do what is natural ! Even animals discipline their young !

Wrong Issy,

In NSW Greens, under Firearms, it states as principle and belief.

"7. That personal protection should never be regarded as a genuine reason for owning, possessing or using a firearm."

That is personal protection (self defence) is NOT a genuine reason to apply for, and be granted a gun licence and therefore being the sole objective of owning that gun. If you have a gun in your possession, for a genuine reason, such as farming, and your are in the unfortunate position of justifiably using that gun in self defence, so be it, unfortunate as it is. your line is what we call Dodge City law.

You are lying when you say Greens policy states; "that guns should never be used for self defence."

Some years back I actually brought that up with now Senator David Shoebridge, He categorically denied what you're saying is Greens policy.

Why does the Shooters and Hooters (NSW) Party go to lengths in their preamble to say; "We do not support “American style gun laws” in NSW." Then they go on to do exactly that, advocate for American style gun laws. Including this a few paragraphs later;

"Establish family and home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm and continue to support measures increasing a person’s right to self-defence."

That is simply a call for the wholesale arming of the population American style. If you want the same gun laws in NSW as the good ole' boys enjoy in Alabama, just come out and say so

Issy,

There are bits and pieces in Shooters and Hooters Party 'Firearm Arm' policy I can agree with, but essentially its aim is to push more guns into the community with less regulation and oversight, its all aimed at protecting the "rights", fun and enjoyment of you hard core gunnies. In fact there's nothing in it that wouldn't allow for 97% of the population being able to carry a concealed gun, and/or having a loaded gun lying around the house, in my opinion. Greens policy I can support all 32 points.

Not withstanding the issue of an unarmed public that would not have the means to overthrow a tyrannical government...

Does forfeiting the right to self defense and thus removing one's ability to defend against intruders outweigh the issue of having an armed public, and all the needless deaths that can come from this?

Keep in mind

A/ If that couple had been armed, the woman in question mite still be alive, and the intruders themselves might have had justice metered out upon them instead.

An armed public might reduce the amount of kids doing these things.

However

B/ More guns on the street might have meant the intruders themselves may have been armed and both the male and female stabbing victims might've been shot instead.

As well as the fact that more kids might have more guns accessible to them and thus more events like this.

I for one am glad there are less guns on the street rather than more, but I hope that I'm never in a situation where my life is at a greater risk if I'm unable to defend myself against a determined intruder.

Hi AC,

I find your comments always reasonable, we may not be politically aligned but I can see your reasoning. There are always a lot of "what if's" we can apply to any particular situation, like the tragic murder of Emma Lovell in our town. The evidence shows that by simply arming the population in so called self defence, instead of reducing crime it increases it. Certainly there are the instances of justified homicide that will occur, but at the same time there will be many more unjustified murders, in the home, in the neighbourhood and in the community.

I bang on about the Shooters and Hooters Party, and their gun policy. Its clear to me that these people are not greatly concerned with community safety, which they use as a mask for their real objective of protecting the "rights" of those they represent, the hard core gun users like Issy. That's not to say Issy is not a responsible gun user, I believe he is, he's of little concern, it all the unknown types who are of greatest concern.

BTW; I was in Coles the other day, and this bloke was going off at the Service Desk, glad he didn't have a gun! Yelling and screaming, banging the counter, I think it was over a pak of fags, not sure, there was no reasoning with this bloke, got my arse out of there.

Hi Paul1405,
Truthfully I think my political alignment has reverted back to my original youthful opinion on politics;
- More closely aligned with Monty Brewsters 'None of the Above' than anything.
As for you, and my opinion of the Adam Bandt and Sarah Hanson Young types,
- Well you don't seem anywhere near as bad as my opinion of them.

"The evidence shows that by simply arming the population in so called self defence, instead of reducing crime it increases it. "
- I'd agree with that, if the US is the example.

[Cont']
"I was in Coles the other day, and this bloke was going off at the Service Desk..."
- I read that line and I thought 'Oh crap, I hope it wasn't me' lol.
But then I read "Yelling and screaming, banging the counter"
- And I was like Nope, definitely wasn't me.

I made a complaint at the service desk the other day, about there only being two self-serve registers that accept cash, and that every time I go in there staff are directing people paying by card to those two registers.
- Which means that often I have to stand there like an idiot and wait, while many other self-serve registers are being unused, but people using card on the 'cash' registers.
If I do a big shop I'll go through the normal register where they pack your groceries for you and I'll pay by card, but sometimes if I just duck down for a couple of things I'll use the self serve and pay cash, and I always feel like an idiot standing there waiting while card using customers are on those registers.
They ask "Are you paying by cash or by card?"
I say "cash" but sometimes I find myself thinking.
"Well I wouldn't be standing here like an idiot if there a register I could use"
- But no, I didn't go off like a crazed fool over it.
I was actually directed to the service desk to pay for my item, and I told them I was sick of it.

They have such an easy job these days.
My first job was Coles Capalaba back in the late 80's
Back then at Christmas we'd have 28 checkouts open and packers on every single one and the whole place was packed like sardines, as there were only a couple of supermarkets in the Redlands back then.
Things have changed a lot, shopping at Christmas is actually a breeze now compared to those days.
- But the staff themselves don't seem to have to do anywhere near as much work as we did in those days.

there was no reasoning with this bloke, got my arse out of there.
Paul1405,
How lamentable !

What don’t the Green idiots understand by the words “. . . using a firearm”?

"7. That personal protection should never be regarded as a genuine reason for owning, possessing or using a firearm.”

Personal protection is recognised by Law as being a genuine reason for using a firearm, but I suppose that the Greens consider themselves above the law.

Hey Is Mise,
I'd be willing to bet the governments security detail are carrying firearms.
- Which kind of makes it one rule for them and a different rules for everyone else.

I know that you can't carry a knife in public, (which is not necessarily unreasonable)
If you're caught with one and say it's for self protection, you'll be arrested.
- That said if you're a youth running around the streets with a machete, you'll likely only get a slap on the wrist.

AC,

Howard the Coward had armed men protecting him.
Whilst he was introducing laws to prohibit Australian citizens from having arms to protect themselves he could have abolished armed protection for himself.

No way, Howard’s well being was way above the average citizen’s.

but I suppose that the Greens consider themselves above the law.
Is Mise,
Or scooting like this ? 'got my arse out of there.' (Paul1405)

Issy,

You don't have to try too hard to be stupid.

When the Greens say; "That personal protection should never be regarded as a genuine reason for owning, possessing or using a firearm." It NOT related to the law as is, in fact its a statement of principle and belief, not even policy. So prattling on saying "law" is superfluous.

The hypocrites of the Shooters and Hooters party make a statement;

"We do not support “American style gun laws”

Then a couple of paragraphs later say;

"Establish family and home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm and continue to support measures increasing a person’s right to self-defence."

What a bunch of Turkeys, first not to support American style gun laws, but then its policy to introduce American style gun laws.

What sort of nut jobs would want to send five year old's off to school with loaded guns....The Shooters and Hooters party that's who!

Who would train a deranged lunatic to use a gun, so he can kill his children....The SSAA that's who!

OK, Goebbels, so the Greens saying that a firearm should not be used for self defence is a statement of principle and belief, you finally got it right.

The SSAA and SFF Party do not want US style gun laws all that they want in relation to self defence is a return to pre1996 Australian law.

Back to the day when it was not a criminal offence to be prepared to protect one’s life and one’s family.
When it was not an offence to keep a cricket bat for defence.

I can see both sides here.

Paul wants guns out of the hands of crazy people who might harm other people, and those who are responible gun owners he wants to make sure that crazy people can never get them, including theft from being poorly secured or staged thefts.

That's not really unreasonable in and of itself.
(Though it probably takes a few very important seconds to take that gun from where it's properly stored)

Is Mise seems to be arguing for the right to self defense, which also means being free from prosecution if you really do need to protect yourself from some 17 year old who doesn't give a crap about anything, and who may be high on drugs and feeling bulletproof.
- And it may not be just the right to self-defense, but the right to protect a wife and kids.
If some 17year old breaks in and wants to come at you, and potentially your wife and kids, if you hit them over the head with a cricket bat, and they want to keep getting up to come at you then you need to stop them using whatever means necessary, and know that you wont find yourself in court for doing so.

In my opinion that's not really unreasonable either.

Hi Issy,

No need for the derogatory name calling you like to engage in, it only goes to weakening your argument, not that you have any argument worthy of note.

The main justification for American gun laws is "self defence", written into the American Constitution, as the Second Amendment.

“The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defence within the home and the community.”

The above is well accepted as what the Second Amendment enshrines in law as a right of the American people. The 'Old Cold Dead Hand' himself Charlton Heston of the NRA always argued that as justification for owning a gun.

The Shooters and Hooters (NSW) Party contradicts itself;

Firstly it states; "We (Shooters Party) do not support “American style gun laws” in NSW."

Then it says; "Establish family and home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm and continue to support measures increasing a person’s right to self-defence."

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT AMERICAN GUN LAWS ARE BASED ON! Say one thing then support the opposite.

BTW Under Shooters and Hooters Party 'FIREARMS' policy, there is no mention of cricket bats, its clear they are talking about guns.

Hi AC,

The trade in legal guns into the hands of criminals through the black market by the actions of Issy's mates the "Cleanskins" is well documented. 7% of legal gun owners at some stage report the theft of weapons held in their possession, an average of three per report. Often it is more than one month from the time of the alleged theft and the filing of a police report, highly suspicious to say the least. What we do know is 60 guns per week are reported stolen, with 45,000 "legal" guns unaccounted for. Issy doesn't want to admit his mates are engaged in a highly profitable illegal trade in black market guns.

Hi again AC,

In practical terms arming the populace for "self-defence" doesn't work. To be effective a loaded gun needs to be in easy reach of a responsible adult, not locked in a gun safe with the ammunition locked in another location. If its in easy reach of a responsible adult, its also in easy reach of an irresponsible adult and children. You would find far more murders and accidental killing of innocent people than the number of bad guys brought down. When a gun licence is issued there is no guarantee that, that person will always be a "fit and proper" person to hold that licence. And the types who will seek a gun licence in the first instance for 'self protection" will be people with issues to begin with, e.g a person having an issue with his neighbours, his wife, his relatives etc. The very people who shouldn't possess a firearm. I don't know what magic would be used to weed these people out.

>>Firstly it states; "We (Shooters Party) do not support “American style gun laws” in NSW."<<

It seems a little ambiguous to me.
If you go by the constitution there aren't supposed to be any restrictions at all.
Some places in the US do have guns laws, like Chicago for example, but ironically these places have the worst statastics for gun crime.
- So saying they don't support gun laws could mean that they don't support the gun 'restrictions' like in Chicago, and instead want no laws relating to guns at all.
I'm not suggesting that's what is meant, but it does seem a little ambiguous based on the info you've shared.

All in all, it's a difficult problem, with arguments on both sides and no easy answer, but I'm still glad there are less guns in circulation rather than more.
FYI, I don't own any guns.
- But I did find a double barrel sawn-off shotgun in the under-bunk storage area of a caravan I stayed in when I was aged about 20, but that's another story.

Not one shred of evidence offered by the resident anti gun fanatic, which is usual.
Just repeats of misinformation.

My reference to cricket bats is to highlight the fact that nothing is allowed to be kept ready for self defence.
The laws are so stupid as to require safety equipment such as helmets, steel toed boots, gloves yet when it comes to so called “bullet proof vests” etc., it is a criminal offence to possess one; strange.

Hi AC,

My experience with the Shooters and Hooters Party goes back to their antics in the NSW Legislative Council, which operates much as the Senate does in Federal Parliament. The Shooters have two MLC's 'Fat' Bob and 'Elephant" Bob (he once claimed he shot and ate an elephant in Africa), I have friends who were also MLC's and they often told me of the behaviour of the pair of featherless galah's. Often the Shooters would hold a gun at the head of the government over passing legislation when they held the balance of power. Their demands were always the same, they would want to white ant firearm laws, in return for their support of government legislation.

I only occasionally encountered Shooters and Hooters Party members at pre-polls or on polling day, some were okay, others were off the planet types. One chap at a pre-poll was fine, he was from the hooters (4WD) side of the party, he said he wasn't going to hand out HTV's for One Nation as well, as he had been told to do. He agreed there were some real nut jobs hanging around gunnie HQ. One such nut job I encountered one election day, he was all for a armed 'citizens militia' to fight the communist and so forth, I wouldn't trust that guy with a pop gun, btw, he was wearing his battle-fatigues at the polling booth.

Other than in NSW where they do enjoy limited support, in other states they are simply and appendage of One Nation, used to direct moderate votes to the extremists. It been long suspected they are backed and financed by the North American NRA, (who took a keen interest in the Howard gun laws) through back door with cash (less than $10k at a time) being drought in by supporters from the USA. There is also some suggestion they may be benefiting from the operations of some "cleanskins".

Ho!Hum! The same old baseless allegations from the same liar.

He must have really hated it when the Commissioner cancelled his firearms licebce, such vindictiveness indicates thar the Commissioner was right.
Probably been knocked back in Queensland too.

Hi Issy,

Me thinks you are confusing me with your old friend, the gun crazy Tony Azzi. You remember Tony, he was your firearms spokesperson and club president. Unfortunately Tony was also a deranged animal killer, caught in the act of shooting protected wildlife, poor defenceless wombats. Azzi and Issy two peas in a pod! Do you not agree?

We are about to be hit with another epidemic of COVID and its a new omicron subvariant that targets the brain.
50% of travelers on a flight from China to Milan were infected.
Dead bodies are piling up in Chinese hospitals and funeral home parking lots.
Chinese citizens are fleeing en masse.
Japan records 415 deaths in 24 hours.

CLOSE THE BORDER. CLOSE IT NOW.

Hi AC,

Happy NEW YEAR!

If the GUNS don't get yah, then the BUGS will! If only we could find a way for the Gunnie people to shoot the bugs! Problem solved.

Before he returns. Issy is probably out there somewhere skinning wombats for his twin bro Azzi. Happy NEW YEAR Issy!

p/s I've been shooting Issy down in flames on this subject for over 10 years now, on the Forum. Ha ha.

Anyways its a big day, gotta do the 'Hangi Tonight'. This old Pakeha does the best Hangi (keg) this side of Waitangi. When it comes to Hangi those Maori just can't cut it, they leave it to me. Got pork, chicken, mutton (lamb the wife likes to call it mutton), veg. She'll do a 'raw fish' and 'fry bread', the tribe will arrive with plenty more including the amber stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCBeCeKv4Y8 (Our mate singing)

Paul’s New Year Resolution.
“I’ll buy a dictionary and look up ‘epidemic’.”

Hi Paul1405,
Sounds like your going to have a great New Years with all the family around.
You're making me hungry already.

The statistics and reports from this new wave of COVID look like they have the potential to make gun crime stats look like a drop in the ocean.
If we leave it another week before we do something it will be too late.
It may even be too late already.

Happy New Years to you and your family.
- Same goes to all the other forum members.
May the next year be better that the one before it.
- Looking at the bigger picture though, it's not easy to be optimistic.

G'day Issy,

No need to go down to Vinnies and see if they've got a 50c dictionary for you. I'll define "epidemic" for you as used in this context.

Gunnies, the so called law abiding ones, the ones the Shooters and Hooters and your SS mob put great store in referring to in their propaganda. With 45,000 legal guns now unaccounted for in Australia, probably now in criminal hands, and up to 60 a week being "stolen" from the so called law abiding Gunnies through the actions of "cleanskins" (previously defined) I would call that an EPIDEMIC. The "cleanskins" have engaged in so much black market criminal gun dealing that, there is now enough guns in society to kill every man, woman and child in the country.

Issy, you have spoken of your "gambling problem" and your problems with the Tax Office, Please do not be tempted, leave the illegal activity to your mates down at your local shooting gallery. BTW Is your mate Tony still club President?

Happy New Year, “NoReference” Paul.

My good Muslim mate in India has dared me to do a Master of Arts, per the medium of Hindi, as he’s offered to pay all costs, refundable if I fail; I’ve taken him up on the offer.

So it’s farewell to OLO for a while, it’s been fun using you.as an example of the lying capabilities of the Greens, the feedback has been very positive.

Issy, good luck and all the best with your undertaking, anything worthwhile takes sacrifice and effort, I know you are a determined old @#$@&%, so I'll bet you'll make it in the end, safe journey.

Its been fun giving you the razz for all these years, if your bro Tony is out of that Peruvian prison after doing a ten stretch for gun running, maybe he can fill in for while your away. We can start off discussing wombats.

hasta la vista baby!

Paul,

I looked up the no of gun deaths in Aus and the deaths were so low that Aus was not even put on the chart.

Is this a genuine thread or yet another BS posting by you.

"In contrast to the U.S. and Latin America, gun deaths are extremely rare in countries like Japan, the United Kingdom, Norway, and Australia."

Hi SM Happy New Year,

The nothing to see here argument is the weakest of the weak, "I (SM) looked up the no of gun deaths in Aus and the deaths were so low that Aus was not even put on the chart." Over 200 people annually die from gun shot wounds in Australia. Everything from cold bloody murder to misadventure are the causes. The argument Australia is not El Salvador, Issy would like to use South Africa, is simply deflection, and has no relevance to Australia's situation 200 is 200 too many, my acceptable limit is zero. There is no comfort for the grieving friends and relatives of a victim to be told; "Lucky we're not El Salvador, lots shot there, or their death was in acceptable limits, nothing out of the ordinary, besides more people die from motor car accidents in Australia than gun shots, think yourself lucky."

My concern is those who seek to politically "white ant" John Howard's and the States robust gun laws, wanting to make gun freely available in the community, aka "American style gun laws". Those that will engage in illegal activity for financial gain to facilitate guns into the hands of criminals, "cleanskins" in the licensed gun community, there are 45,000 unaccounted for "legal" guns in Australia. Finally, I am concerned about guns nuts, like those that gunned down three innocent Australians recently, Constable Rachel McCrow, and Constable Matthew Arnold, along with local man Alan Dare. What failure of the system see these people licensed and enabled to carry out these horrendous acts.

No! I'm not engaging in BS about this, it is a growing concern in society, and it would not take much to see Australia in a situation similar to the dark old days of pre 1996 when over 500 people were shot dead annually, and Martin Bryant was able to gun down 35 people at Port Arthur, through lax gun laws and society's ineptitude.

Paul,

The number of gunshot deaths dropped by about 70% from 1990 to 2005 and has hovered around 200 p.a. (or 0.76 per 100 000) which is one of the very lowest in the world.

https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/total_number_of_gun_deaths

There is no spike in gun violence, and certainly no epidemic, just your usual rant against guns.

SM,

Did you read my opening post, I often make my discussion title, like a headline on Murdoch "Daily Telecrap', a bit of an attention grabber.

The "epidemic" as I put it; "I'm not talking about criminals shooting criminals, or innocent people being shot, or even armed holdups, although those events are common enough occurrences in Australia. No, what I am talking about is the epidemic of guns being "stolen" from supposedly law abiding licensed gun owners at an alarming rate,"

45,000 "legal" but unaccounted for guns in the community, average of 60 guns a week being "stolen" from the so called law abiding gun owners, who are commonly refereed to as "cleanskins" most of these "stolen" firearms end up in the hands of criminals.

I take it , 200+ deaths a year, should be of no concern? If one of your own was to die at the hands of a criminal, say in a holdup, a gun supplied to that criminal by a "cleanskin", would you dismiss it with a shrug of the shoulders, and comfort yourself with the thought, Australia has a rather low instance of "death by gun", I am thankful we are not El Salvador.

Just as you were INSULTING and WRONG when I stared the thread "Could A Reich Citizens Movement Exist In Australia".

Village idiot, (referring to me)

Looking for conspiracy theories under the bed? just like the racist twit you are.
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 11 December 2022 1:51:12 PM

UNFORTUNATELY, less than 24 hours later three innocent people were dead in Queensland at the hands of far right extremists licensed GUN NUTS! Anything to say on that?

Still having pointless arguments about the crazy suggestion that Australia has 'a gun crime problem' when it does not! It's time for a New Year change.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/dec/31/australian-doctors-call-for-more-covid-data-as-uk-and-france-join-list-of-counties-testing-china-travellers
"The Australian government is standing firm on its policy to not require incoming travellers from China to test negative for Covid, despite the UK and France joining the list of countries imposing such restrictions.

The Australian Medical Association president, Steve Robson, backed the position on Saturday, saying there was not enough data yet to show that testing every passenger would be beneficial."

Just like last time, by the time they get this 'data'
It will be long too late to do anything about it.
Considering Australia voted in favor of new WHO rules, which we're stopped by members of the African Union, they may want a catastrophe to give justification for pushing through the new WHO rules a second time around.

I already told you all the situation is out of control.
These idiots are playing Russian roulette with Aussies lives and futures.
If it all goes to crap (as I think it will) I hope the people who allowed it to happen are held accountable.
Get ready for toilet paper shortages, fights in supermarkets and lockdowns all over again.

Dear Paul,

The recent spat of violence, of gun crimes, stabbings,
et cetera, amongst younger people is concerning.
Are they on drugs, or part of crime gangs? not sure. But it
is a concern. I would hate for Australia to get into the
"Wild West" mentality that the US seems to have. We've always
been more subdued. At least that's what I believed.

cont'd

I want to add that I think everybody coming into
Australia should be tested at the air-port. No
ifs and buts.

Paul,

For effect, you love using hyperbole to hype up your rants.

The % of legal guns stolen in Aus is about 0.1% p.a. and has not changed significantly for a decade. So your claim that legally owned guns have a habit of being stolen is bollocks
The case of a person having a repeat theft is about 2% So your "clean skin theory is dubious.
The cases where stolen legal guns are used in crimes are about 3% of guns stolen.
Roughly 3x as many homicides are due to knife stabbings as from using guns. So should knife ownership be banned?

All of the above would make your claim of an epidemic of gun crime in Aus your usual wild hyperbole.

There is nothing to show that the guns used in Queensland were stolen.

Finally, 3 radicalised gun nuts don't make a "Reich Citizens Movement" So you are still WRONG.

Also:

"Australia might be awash with illegal firearms, but the evidence is clear: the vast majority are not stolen from licensed firearm owners. The SSAA Legislative Action (SSAA-LA) department has analysed data from Australia’s police forces and statistics agencies, with the figures proving that the real rate of gun thefts is minuscule"

The figure you give for missing guns is over more than a decade, the theft of guns is a small contributor to the number of illegally owned guns in Aus most coming from other sources. This means that if legal gun ownership was banned, it would have relatively little effect on access to illegal guns.

For context, I have never owned a handgun and am in favour of strict gun control. Which is clearly working. Your hyperbole is not warranted.

I am not surprised that ttbn would be opposed to gun control, as he has indicated elsewhere on the Forum that he favours a "FIGHT" by citizens against the democratically elected governments of this country. Saying this to a like minded;

"Indyvidual"

"True. I'm not sure that modern Australians know what they want or if they are prepared to fight. They seem to like the nanny state, but don't understand what it's going to cost them in the way of freedom. Perhaps they believe that they can 'own nothing and be happy".

Posted by ttbn, Friday, 30 December 2022 8:36:34 PM

This is the sort of statement from a far right supporter that should be of great concern, it may be no more than "piss and wind", but who knows what this bloke could have in mind or be capable of. When asked he fails to explain what his objectives are

SM,

These percentages you are quoting, where did they come from? You fail to supply a reference.

"So should knife ownership be banned?" Just as I'm not advocating a wholesale ban on guns, I'm saying there should not be a total ban on knives, how would people eat their steak dinner? But, should a knife be an concealed weapon, with obvious illegal intent or purpose, then the penalties should be severe, just as they are for illegal firearms. What I believe with firearms is we should toughen up on unnecessary licensing. You have already indicated you believe 200+ deaths p/a from firearms is reasonable, and you have a nothing to see here attitude.

"The SSAA Legislative Action (SSAA-LA) department has analysed data from Australia’s police forces and statistics agencies, with the figures proving that the real rate of gun thefts is minuscule" Crunched the numbers and came up with the word "minuscule" did they? They would say that naturally, as they are one of the chief proponents of lax gun control in Australia. Anything that puts more guns into the community the SSAA would be all in favour of.

Paul,

Google gun crimes Australia. There are a number of papers in government archives. The figures I have quoted are genuine, though might have changed slightly since published.

Also please stop putting words in my mouth. No gun deaths are reasonable, and neither are the 250 drownings,600 stabbings, 3000 traffic deaths etc. The question is how authoritarian the government needs to be to solve a problem before the consequences are worse than the problem.

Australia already has one of the very lowest gun deaths in the world, and the indications are that a minority are caused by stolen legal guns.

From the Brisbane times:

"There are about 3.5 million registered firearms in Australia and a quarter of a million illicit ones. Associate Professor Philip Alpers, who maps the use of guns in Australia and other nations, said many of the guns now used by criminals in Melbourne had been in Australia for years."

Given the 40 000 odd "missing" guns from legal owners that would put the stolen guns at about 16% of the illegal guns floating around.

Please tell me again how the further restriction of legal licences will solve this problem?

how authoritarian the government needs to be to solve a problem before the consequences are worse than the problem.
shadowminister,
It's the problem of mentality of the voters that needs sorting out first ! It's like blaming the coach for the team losing the game.
We need a more awake mob instead of a woke crowd !

SM,

In the case of knives, they have a primary legitimate purpose, I've given my opinion on them previously. Drownings are unfortunate accidents with no criminal intent, there are measures taken to try and prevent drownings, you are aware of them. Motor vehicles have a vital use in society, and recognising the inherent dangers in their use, they are heavily regulated through licencing, laws, policing and punitive action when necessary. Unlike gun behaviour, none of the aforementioned have political parties or organisations actively seeking to "white ant" the necessary control through government legislation.

There are those who obtain a gun licence for solely criminal purposes, "cleanskins", and the black market trade in firearms. Should owning a firearm for purely recreational purposes, hunting, target shooting, be recognised as legitimate? Are existing requirements in relation to licencing, storing and use of firearms tough enough? I believe there are areas where improvements can be made. I do thank John Howard and others for the introduction of robust, and certainly necessary, gun laws some 25 years ago, but society needs to be vigilant as there are those who actively seek to undermine such laws.

Am I clear.

People with the mentality such as Paul1405's are a far great threat to society than gun owners !

So Indy,

You are claiming that I'm a greater threat to society than those three crazed gun owners who murdered two young police officers and their neighbour.

Well news for you buddy, I'd have a great use for an old fart like you in the regular army, it involves guns and target practice.

Paul,

The consequences of having a gun lost or stolen can and does lead to prosecution about 25% of the time. The person who loses or has a gun stolen will probably never get another license.

There may well be a few clean skins, but this is probably a tiny minority, and you have no figures for this. What is it 10 guns p.a.?

If you don't like guns, that's fine, but don't try and make a mountain out of a molehill.

SM,

No not at all, with over 3,000 firearms stolen annually anyone who believes only 10 are stolen though the network of "cleanskins" for the criminal black market is kidding themselves. Between 2007 and 2017 there was a doubling of gun theft.

"Most registered firearms stolen from private homes and farms are never recovered. Many of the guns end up on the illegal market, in the hands of criminals."

"GCA chair Sam Lee said no government body was monitoring, researching or tracking gun theft in Australia." Figures are difficult to obtain, only through FOI requests and then it can be onerous, as the gun lobby ensures there is a shroud of secrecy to mask this serious problem

Paul1405,
it's all about context. There are a hell of a lot more bureaudroids than crazed shooters & that makes the former a far greater problem for society because it is more often than not due to incompetent & corrupt people in authority who drive people up the wall.

Well Indy,

You suffer from authority anxiety, were you a bed wetter as a child? Are you a bed wetter now? I assume the answers are yes and yes. Do you suffer from any of the following;

Arachnophobia
Ophidiophobia
Acrophobia
Aerophobia
Cynophobia
Astraphobia
Trypanophobia
Agoraphobia
Mysophobia

I assume the answer is all of the above and more.

I have been able to diagnose you remotely, the answer is obvious, you are suffering a severe case of entomophobia, the fear of bugs! We shall apply the usual remedy; a BEX, a Cup of Tea, and a good lie down. If you haven't improved in a week or three, contact me again for further instructions.

Paul1405,
Your parents must be suffering terribly with regret !

Paul,

As you have no figures about gun crime or cleanskins, your claims are largely conjecture. The figures I have posted indicate that about 84% of illegal guns were not stolen from legal owners.

If you are looking at stopping gun crime, cracking down on legal owners is not the place to start.

The 'Cairns Post' reported today that the official Police number for cars stolen in 2022 is 1289 however, the final number released later this week will be higher.
No reports of guns involved but an intolerable crime rate nevertheless. Considering that cars are actually being used as weapons is warrants to be included in this topic.

Looks like I didn't mention cars a moment too soon, just heard about a crash caused by a woman that killed people in another car somewhere down South.
She didn't even have a gun going off accidentally !

Hi Indy,

You certainly are clueless.

Motor vehicle accidents are simply that, accidents, generally there is no malice or intention to harm. The primary purpose of a motor vehicle is as a means of conveyance, of people and goods. Not withstanding the lack of intention to harm, the potential to case harm, society insists motor vehicles, and their use, be heavily regulated with penalises for transgressors. Guns have a primary purpose, and that is to do physical harm. The recreational use of guns, serves no useful purpose and is a danger to society. Professional use of guns, although undesirable is necessary to help maintain an ordered society, although when used there must be shown that it was necessary and was done responsibly.

BTW, why is it those of you of the Hard Right see guns in society, with little control, you see their use as being most necessary. I think many of you believe armed insurrection will be the only way your side of politics will ever take political control, therefore the need for guns.

a motor vehicle is as a means of conveyance
Paul1405,
Just as a gun is a means to defend or procure !

Recreationally neither is an absolute requirement & people can get by without them. In crime, both guns & vehicles serve as a weapon !

It's not the weapon that harms, it's the poor mentality of the person that uses the weapon that causes harm just as in the old saying "the pen is mightier than the sword" the pen is not writing the inciting words, it's the writer who composes them !

Hi Indy,

Your deflection to pens and writers is invalid. If all recreational guns were removed from society immediately there would be no negative impact, but the positive gains would be numerous. These positive gains would include, less shootings in domestic violence situations, less gun crime by criminals through "cleanskin" activity, certainly less accidental shootings and self inflicted homicides, less killing of native fauna. You maybe able to add to the list.

Alternately you can present a list of "positive" benefits of recreational guns in society. I'll start you off;

1. They pander to the perverse pleasure of Gun Nuts.

Sorry can't think of any others.

Paul1405,
That's simply just deflective waffle you're automatically associated with by all !

Come on Indy,

I've given you the negatives of recreational guns in society, you tell me what social good they do. from there we can determine if they are an overall benefit or not.

Your last comment is the type of thing a loser puts up, when he has nothing worthwhile. BTW who are ALL....YOU!

you tell me what social good they do
Paul1405,
I'll make yet another attempt to get you to see something not directly aligned with idealism.
Many recreational shooters have regular meets which invariable bring about social cohesion, trade & of course economical benefits. In many instances, rec shooters aid vermin control although I always question the ulterior motive of the Bogan types. Using a firearm also instils a sense of responsibility & respect for both weapon & people.
Unlike bureaudroids who appear to get their jollies from harassing people already down on their luck. You sound rather suspiciously like one of those.
Recreational use of firearms is just as harmless/dangerous as most other recreational activities.
Firearm get more attention because the dim-witted believe it's the weapon that kills. More people get killed driving cars & in some thrill-seeking activities they put their or others' lives on the line with up front knowledge.
Firearm related crime is a direct consequence of people with your mentality i.e. vehemently opposing discipline to build a healthy mentality !