So I’m being accused of lacking respect for women. How disappointingly predictable. Followers of feminism-lite routinely use this tactic to silence any criticism of their tightly defined set of ideas about how society can best treat women. Unfortunately, it has the effect of preventing any critical discussion about their flawed ideas, such as self-esteem. Rather than attacking me personally, perhaps Suze could attempt to refute the following lines of arguement;
• That an obsession with self-esteem can set people up for failure. For example, telling women that it is fine to tart around is setting them up to be ridiculed.
• That an obsession with self-esteem discourages self improvement. For example, finding love is one of the biggest battles that most of us face. Most people of both genders eventually figure out that they need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex.
• That an obsession with protecting the self-esteem of young women implies that they are "fragile little petals".

Pynchme’s tactic of comparing the way women are treated to a fantasy version of the way that society treats men is also a little tired. When men are being immature or selfish, no-one is saying how wonderful it is that men are “encouraged to express themselves and develop, warts and all forgiven, towards maturity.” When Pynchme was 20 and her boyfriend was attempting to wriggle out of being tied down with one woman, she wasn’t saying “lets not limit his choices and suppress his vitality and initiative.”

BTW Perhaps you lot will able to make better debating points while sober...or not.

Ok Benk, I will try to refute your comments without hurting your fragile ego personally! You seem to have no problem trying to hurt mine.

Benk <" That an obsession with self-esteem can set people up for failure. For example, telling women that it is fine to tart around is setting them up to be ridiculed."

Who tells women it is fine to tart around?
By that I'm assuming you mean to sleep around with as many men as they please?
I have never told any woman to do that, least of all my 18 year old daughter, who has had the same boyfriend for 2 years.

It seems ok though for men to tell each other to 'tart around' though isn't it?
They are just considered by other men, and some women too, to be 'sewing their wild oats' nudge nudge, wink wink.

Double standards?

Benk <'That an obsession with self-esteem discourages self improvement. For example, finding love is one of the biggest battles that most of us face. Most people of both genders eventually figure out that they need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex."

Actually I totally agree with that statement Benk. It can be equally applied to both genders and is very true for both.

Benk <' That an obsession with protecting the self-esteem of young women implies that they are "fragile little petals".

Don't all parents try very hard to build the self esteem of both their sons and daughters?
It is a lack of self esteem that leads to the sad rate of youth suicide and self harm, especially in country areas of Australia.

Young men are at most risk of self harm Benk, so why wouldn't we also have an'obsession' at protecting their self esteem?

Benk you refer to, "...TheMissus' condesending attitude towards men" - don't you see that the things you're saying are condescending to women - and to men as well?

How funny, here I was thinking I was being perhaps a little belligerent with dash of rambunctiousness. lol. Or just being a tad cheeky more likely.

I do get a laugh now I am an old girl and thinking back that whenever a man respected you for holding back he never quite got the message he may have been simply unattractive that way, hence the wait.

Each to their own.

Suze

It wasn’t the insults that I took issue with, just your reluctance to deal with ideas by attacking me personally. Thank-you for taking the time to respond to the points that I raised earlier today.

You may well never have encouraged women to tart around, but many other people have. “Tarting around” can mean flirting or dressing in a certain way. “Who tells women it is fine to tart around?” I could make quite a long list, but lets just stick with Mark Chou. His article implied that only in the military (where attitudes are a bit backward and need to change) are underdressed women not valued. I believe that these attitudes are much more widespread and pretending otherwise achieves nothing. Women will learn this some time, why not tell them now?

Your argument that sleazy men are seen as some sort of stud is similarly unconvincing. I made a similar point to Pynchme, but when you were 20 and your boyfriend didn’t want to be tied down with one woman, you weren’t saying “thats ok, he’s just sewing his wild oats”.

“Don't all parents try very hard to build the self esteem of both their sons and daughters?” Not me, I want them to have self-efficacy- knowing what they are good at and what they aren’t. Successful people have this quality.

The only double standard that should concern you is the difference between the way that society protects the self-esteem of women and that of men. We seem to assume that men can handle the truth and we are much better off, because of this honesty. We seem to think that women’s self esteem needs a hell of alot of protection and it does them no favours, in the long run, to be lied to

Benk: I am starting to think you must be an oldster of like 100 or so.
You know what - not all women consider marriage their highest attainment and not all girls have marriage as a goal. I have never had the experience of trying to tie some bloke down to anything. How undignified! Much more undignified than dressing light.

Anyway, what are the equivalent for females of 'truisms' for males like, "He's just sowing his wild oats."; "Boys will be boys." etc. Those are examples of the ways in which men are socialized (pressured) to behave in certain ways.

PEOPLE will choose to be modest, dignified and sexually contained or they won't. There is no justification, however, for pressuring females to be so while letting blokes off the hook.

Expectations can fairly be exerted on both sexes.

Benk I think we will have to agree to disagree.
I am sorry you don't feel the need to try to instill self esteem into your children, because successful people most certainly have this quality.

Women can dress any way they please Benk, as can men (within the constraints of the law of course).
Obviously women who flirt or dress 'provocatively' in your opinion are worse than the men who do this. I can't change that.

Men and women are meant to try and catch each other's eye Benk, that is human nature.
Maybe you should loosen up and try it yourself sometime!