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The Forum > Article Comments > The marine who wanted more > Comments

The marine who wanted more : Comments

By Mark Chou, published 18/1/2010

A letter to the 'NT News' raises questions about equality between the sexes and how the military perceive women.

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That was really interesting. I'm not sure whats the best response to Campbell. He may be partly right.

As to the US army, the UN and the sex trade. Well its true. To be honest it just seems so much more reprehensible from the UN. Particularly when its UN aid workers etc who do these things and then run off.
Posted by David Jennings, Monday, 18 January 2010 5:34:25 PM
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Mark,

This is the only substance in the entire dribble....

"But who knows. I may be wrong. Campbell might, if he does in fact exist, be the man he seems to be: chauvinistic, arrogant, sexist; a man who rightly deserves the response he received from one Darwin nightclub dancer: “Put it where the sun doesn’t shine”."

If the claimed author does not exist, or cannot be determined, we know not if the person in actuality is a he or a she?! Hence how does your anti-military gender specific and supposedly sensitive dribble support itself?

Sorry, some of you content may be accurate, but it deserves not consideration as it is a critique of emperor's new clothes.
Posted by SapperK9, Monday, 18 January 2010 7:46:27 PM
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The so called Marine, God bless him, was just the latest in the parade of Military men, to enjoy their military service, or not as they faced the dichotomy of absolutely positive and dramatic hormonal activity as a young man, and coming from America which has about 55% of active Christians in its community, balancing that against his basic training, which is in Christianity, long before he was ever a marine.

The Australian Army has exactly the same culture. They are men first, with all that that entails. The aggressiveness that makes a good soldier, is one of the first attributes of a good combat infantryman. That aggressiveness can exist in women and sometimes does. I grew up in a Celtic Family, and Celtic Women, who by tradition in times gone past went into battle with their menfolk, are often as wildly fanatical about their defence of home and family as their menfolk. Violence is no stranger to a Celtic family. Women in Celtic society were every bit the equal of men, and many a large man has lived in terror of a small but determined red headed woman.

Men fight both for and because of women. Without an Army, no country is secure. As a learned author once said, the Navy and Airforce can do their worst, but the dirty work must be done by the Infantry. Ask any tradie, who titivates homes in any capital city, and he will tell you he adores women. Carpenters, Plumbers, Home Decorators, Blind men, curtain and bedmakers all survive because a woman somewhere, wants to make a loving home for her man.

Sometimes the rite of passage to a stable and loving home, for a woman is the plying of the sex trade. A male who ran brothels in Africa, complained once that all his staff ran off with clients. It is said that almost all the first women in the Wild West were originally members of the oldest profession.

Young women are often aggressively female, using a blunt instrument, to inflict grievous bodily harm. Not necessarily physically but emotionally. Nothing changes
Posted by Peter Vexatious, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 12:11:44 AM
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With respect, this is an egg-beat of an egg-beat. This is from the newspaper concerned:

"The US consulate yesterday said it was unable to find a serving marine of that name who had recently been in Australia although it said Capt Campbell may have been a retired marine.

The NT News has the letter writer's contact phone number and email address but attempts to contact him to defend his comments have so far been unsuccessful."
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/01/07/113851_ntnews.html

The whole story stretches one's credulity and it has all of the hallmarks of a set-up to create controversy and tarnish the image of US servicemen visiting Australia.

What military officer, knowing full well the importance of maintaining good relations in a foreign port, would: 1) speak out against the local women, and 2) risk his credibility and leadership with his own troops in doing so. It is extremely foolish to believe that of all service personnel, a marine officer would be silly enough proffer criticism and advice to women. Talk about spoiling his own chances and those of his men.

What a screaming load of bollocks this 'news' is and what a waste of time indulging in speculative 'assessment' of a story that is most likely bogus, dreamed up by a trouble maker.

Don't facts matter any more?
Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 2:06:41 AM
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I agree with Cornflower. This 'story' is made up. Facts should matter... and look at how much of everyone's time and energy has been wasted looking for the mythical letter writer.
Posted by Pynchme, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 6:58:14 AM
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This article shows how far we haven't come in gender relations. Fifteen years ago, any person who criticised any person from any other race for any reason, was likely to be accused of racism. As a broad generalisation, society has moved a long way and people now think alot more before throwing accusations about.

In relation to women, however, this blokes is being villified for pointing out the blatently obvious. Regardless of whether he has given his correct name or not, the attitude that he has expressed is very real. Dressing provacatively will only impress deadbeat blokes, out looking for something short term. The author of this article appears to be one of these deadbeats, given the way that he tells women what they want to hear.

I find it quite disturbing that there has been such a large effort to identify and probably launch a smear campaign against this letter writer. How can women ever make wise choices if no-one is allowed to discuss consequences of those choices? Why are so many people still protecting women's feelings like it is 1955? Why do we feed young women so much BS about men? It isn't really protecting these women to feed them this garbage. They will only have to learn these lessons the hard way.
Posted by benk, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 7:58:54 AM
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I'm with Cornflower and Pynchme. This must have been a slow news day.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 1:58:43 PM
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Benk: <"Why do we feed young women so much BS about men? It isn't really protecting these women to feed them this garbage. They will only have to learn these lessons the hard way.">

What BS about men?

Protect women from what ... and what garbage are they being fed?

Learn what lessons and what's the hard way?

Sorry Benk but I don't get your drift. Could you please elaborate. Thanks.
Posted by Pynchme, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 6:37:08 PM
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Sorry for any ambiguity.

One of the recurring themes of my posts is that much of the way that women are now socialised and much of what passes as feminism does, in fact, owe more to old fashioned ideas about women being fragile and needing protection.

In relation to men and love, few young women are now given the "men don't respect women like that" talk, not because men have changed, but because it might hurt the woman's self-esteem to hear that, under certain conditions, people might think less of her. Most of the books and articles on finding Mr Right are full of affirmation, but short on useful advice. They tell women that somewhere out there is someone who will fall at their feet because they are so wonderful. This advice makes them vulnerable to pick-up artists and unable to tell the smitten but slightly shy. There should be punishment cells at Guantanimo Bay set aside for the people who write this crap. Soapies feature male characters, who court the female characters. There never seems to be scene where they ask "is this guy genuinely interested or just after a little bit of sex?” Sex in the city was pure fantasy, but many viewers seemed unable to tell.

Women are being told what they want to hear (to protect them). They will eventually have to learn certain lessons the hard way. I still believe;
• That dressing like a tart or flirting may get attention, but not respect.
• That a woman’s ‘reputation’ still matters.
• That women don’t need to make any effort to avoid sleazy blokes, they will just suddenly stop.
• If he says “I love you” he is probably lying.
• If he seems too good to be true, he probably is.
Posted by benk, Tuesday, 19 January 2010 10:32:27 PM
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benk

The stuff you are talking about, regardless of whether it is written by feminists or not, is mostly written by women for women and it is up to women to weight the pros and cons and make their own decisions.

No harm in reminding all, both men and women, that we have to be responsible for our own decisions. People who take risks and make foolish decisions usually do so through choice, even though they might later try it on to make the other gender or the community responsible for the choices they have made.

What advice would you give to boys and young men? My impression is that they are often far more vulnerable because their parents, especially their mothers, give them very little advice on dealing with girls and women; they do not have the intimate discussions that girls and women have with their friends and nor do they usually have any supports to help make decisions or handle break-up; and quite clearly they take more risks, suffer higher depression and have a higher death toll through accident and suicide?

If you might sometimes come across as patronising to women it is because by focussing on women's 'frailties' you are so willing to dismiss the worth, welfare and quality of life of men.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 21 January 2010 5:41:24 PM
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It is very hot and humid in Darwin.

When I go to Sydney people wearing so many clothes looks odd to me. Especially suits. Who was the brainwasher that got so many men to wear that silly outfit? Sheep!

Live in the tropics long enough you get used to people earing fewer clothes, bare feet and the rest of it.

Whoever wrote it was not from the tropics.
Posted by TheMissus, Thursday, 21 January 2010 6:02:44 PM
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TheMissus, "Whoever wrote it was not from the tropics."

Nor had s/he seen the local men in singlets and footy shorts with the tasteful splits along the seams.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 21 January 2010 6:20:12 PM
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Cornflower

"If you might sometimes come across as patronising to women it is because by focussing on women's 'frailties'"

That it is a little unfair. My posts on OLO show a long track record of attacking patronising, over-protective attitudes towards women. I could credit women with a little more critical distance towards this advice, if I saw a lot less young women with their head in the clouds. Older people see them and think "geez they have some hard lessons to learn" but few people want to tell a few hard truths and lessen the damage.

"you are so willing to dismiss the worth, welfare and quality of life of men." I can't even comment on that because I have no idea why you might write it.

In relation to advising men, I actually believe that most men actually have the skills to sustain relationships, but many young men don't want to be too nice to their current girlfriend, because they don't want to be stuck with her. If asked, I would advise men not no sleep around, because I have seen so many men sabotage every relationship they get and every time move on, thet end up with someone who is a little less desirable.
Posted by benk, Friday, 22 January 2010 8:17:36 AM
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benk, "many young men don't want to be too nice to their current girlfriend, because they don't want to be stuck with her. If asked, I would advise men not no sleep around, because I have seen so many men sabotage every relationship they get and every time move on, thet end up with someone who is a little less desirable."

Goodness, I can see why you are on a mission to protect women, those vulnerable, fragile flowers, from that other gender, who it would appear, 'are only after one thing' as the vigilant nuns used to say.
Posted by Cornflower, Friday, 22 January 2010 7:42:44 PM
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Ha Ha

men

That dressing like a suit or flirting may get attention, but not respect.
• That a man’s ‘reputation’ still matters but what male has one?.
• That men don’t need to make any effort to avoid sleazy blokes, hee hee.
• If she says “I love you” she is probably after your money.
• If she seems too good to be true, she probably is.

Some women do think that if she sleeps with a man the first night it means marriage but rarely. Often men think they have a gilfriend when she thinks "what a nerd". I used to dress really well and just got the velcro type, freaked me out.

However, the truth is that women do have more insecurity when younger but once they get older men cling like that horrid gladwrap. So men get more needy once they lose their teeth and get a tummy. Sadly this is when women have lost the loving feeling realising washing dishes, picking up socks, smelling farts and doing all the cooking is slavery, not romance.

So for some women if they only ever get used for sex can be a good thing. Better than being used for sex PLUS used as babysitting PLUS used as cleaner PLUS used for decoration.!

Blah, blah. Men should not think so highly of themselves. They are just mates. What men wear never made them good or bad. Just different levels of sheeples.
Posted by TheMissus, Friday, 22 January 2010 8:21:35 PM
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Cornflower,

Wrong again. I aren't treating women like precious little petals, I'm more brutally honest. I just get sick of being the only source of honesty. The ignorance and over-confidence that comes from being lied to leaves them unable to help themselves. Speaking of over confidence, check out TheMissus' condesending attitude towards men.
Posted by benk, Friday, 22 January 2010 9:50:43 PM
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I totally agree with you there Benk. You certainly aren't treating women as fragile petals at all.
You have a rather unhealthy dislike of females which runs through almost every post you write.
Some references you make are just a little more subtle than others!

Cornflower <' If you might sometimes come across as patronising to women it is because by focussing on women's 'frailties' you are so willing to dismiss the worth, welfare and quality of life of men.'

Congrats for this statement Cornflower. It is quite possibly one of the best come-backs against some of these female-hating men that I have seen.

There are good and bad among both genders.
I have seen just as many men wearing 'provocative' clothing when they are out as women.
Those tight trousers just drive me wild.......... :)
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 23 January 2010 12:11:00 AM
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TheMissus - Oi mate, that's pretty harsh, but an understandable counterpoint to Benk's list.

Benk you refer to, "...TheMissus' condesending attitude towards men" - don't you see that the things you're saying are condescending to women - and to men as well?

I believe that most men and women are better than the ways that you describe them. I also don't see why women should be the only ones to be held to some standard of behaviour (including limited choices and suppression of some of their vitality and initiative) while men are not - they are encouraged to express themselves and develop, warts and all forgiven, towards maturity.
Posted by Pynchme, Saturday, 23 January 2010 12:11:33 AM
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So I’m being accused of lacking respect for women. How disappointingly predictable. Followers of feminism-lite routinely use this tactic to silence any criticism of their tightly defined set of ideas about how society can best treat women. Unfortunately, it has the effect of preventing any critical discussion about their flawed ideas, such as self-esteem. Rather than attacking me personally, perhaps Suze could attempt to refute the following lines of arguement;
• That an obsession with self-esteem can set people up for failure. For example, telling women that it is fine to tart around is setting them up to be ridiculed.
• That an obsession with self-esteem discourages self improvement. For example, finding love is one of the biggest battles that most of us face. Most people of both genders eventually figure out that they need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex.
• That an obsession with protecting the self-esteem of young women implies that they are "fragile little petals".

Pynchme’s tactic of comparing the way women are treated to a fantasy version of the way that society treats men is also a little tired. When men are being immature or selfish, no-one is saying how wonderful it is that men are “encouraged to express themselves and develop, warts and all forgiven, towards maturity.” When Pynchme was 20 and her boyfriend was attempting to wriggle out of being tied down with one woman, she wasn’t saying “lets not limit his choices and suppress his vitality and initiative.”

BTW Perhaps you lot will able to make better debating points while sober...or not.
Posted by benk, Saturday, 23 January 2010 11:30:51 AM
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Ok Benk, I will try to refute your comments without hurting your fragile ego personally! You seem to have no problem trying to hurt mine.

Benk <" That an obsession with self-esteem can set people up for failure. For example, telling women that it is fine to tart around is setting them up to be ridiculed."

Who tells women it is fine to tart around?
By that I'm assuming you mean to sleep around with as many men as they please?
I have never told any woman to do that, least of all my 18 year old daughter, who has had the same boyfriend for 2 years.

It seems ok though for men to tell each other to 'tart around' though isn't it?
They are just considered by other men, and some women too, to be 'sewing their wild oats' nudge nudge, wink wink.

Double standards?

Benk <'That an obsession with self-esteem discourages self improvement. For example, finding love is one of the biggest battles that most of us face. Most people of both genders eventually figure out that they need to make an effort to be attractive to the other sex."

Actually I totally agree with that statement Benk. It can be equally applied to both genders and is very true for both.

Benk <' That an obsession with protecting the self-esteem of young women implies that they are "fragile little petals".

Don't all parents try very hard to build the self esteem of both their sons and daughters?
It is a lack of self esteem that leads to the sad rate of youth suicide and self harm, especially in country areas of Australia.

Young men are at most risk of self harm Benk, so why wouldn't we also have an'obsession' at protecting their self esteem?
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 23 January 2010 4:51:08 PM
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Benk you refer to, "...TheMissus' condesending attitude towards men" - don't you see that the things you're saying are condescending to women - and to men as well?

How funny, here I was thinking I was being perhaps a little belligerent with dash of rambunctiousness. lol. Or just being a tad cheeky more likely.

I do get a laugh now I am an old girl and thinking back that whenever a man respected you for holding back he never quite got the message he may have been simply unattractive that way, hence the wait.

Each to their own.
Posted by TheMissus, Saturday, 23 January 2010 10:03:16 PM
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Suze

It wasn’t the insults that I took issue with, just your reluctance to deal with ideas by attacking me personally. Thank-you for taking the time to respond to the points that I raised earlier today.

You may well never have encouraged women to tart around, but many other people have. “Tarting around” can mean flirting or dressing in a certain way. “Who tells women it is fine to tart around?” I could make quite a long list, but lets just stick with Mark Chou. His article implied that only in the military (where attitudes are a bit backward and need to change) are underdressed women not valued. I believe that these attitudes are much more widespread and pretending otherwise achieves nothing. Women will learn this some time, why not tell them now?

Your argument that sleazy men are seen as some sort of stud is similarly unconvincing. I made a similar point to Pynchme, but when you were 20 and your boyfriend didn’t want to be tied down with one woman, you weren’t saying “thats ok, he’s just sewing his wild oats”.

“Don't all parents try very hard to build the self esteem of both their sons and daughters?” Not me, I want them to have self-efficacy- knowing what they are good at and what they aren’t. Successful people have this quality.

The only double standard that should concern you is the difference between the way that society protects the self-esteem of women and that of men. We seem to assume that men can handle the truth and we are much better off, because of this honesty. We seem to think that women’s self esteem needs a hell of alot of protection and it does them no favours, in the long run, to be lied to
Posted by benk, Saturday, 23 January 2010 10:36:20 PM
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Benk: I am starting to think you must be an oldster of like 100 or so.
You know what - not all women consider marriage their highest attainment and not all girls have marriage as a goal. I have never had the experience of trying to tie some bloke down to anything. How undignified! Much more undignified than dressing light.

Anyway, what are the equivalent for females of 'truisms' for males like, "He's just sowing his wild oats."; "Boys will be boys." etc. Those are examples of the ways in which men are socialized (pressured) to behave in certain ways.

PEOPLE will choose to be modest, dignified and sexually contained or they won't. There is no justification, however, for pressuring females to be so while letting blokes off the hook.

Expectations can fairly be exerted on both sexes.
Posted by Pynchme, Sunday, 24 January 2010 12:39:11 AM
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Benk I think we will have to agree to disagree.
I am sorry you don't feel the need to try to instill self esteem into your children, because successful people most certainly have this quality.

Women can dress any way they please Benk, as can men (within the constraints of the law of course).
Obviously women who flirt or dress 'provocatively' in your opinion are worse than the men who do this. I can't change that.

Men and women are meant to try and catch each other's eye Benk, that is human nature.
Maybe you should loosen up and try it yourself sometime!
Posted by suzeonline, Sunday, 24 January 2010 1:53:26 AM
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Pynchme

“I have never had the experience of trying to tie some bloke down to anything.” You are lying. I don’t claim to know you personally, but can still be certain that you have exerted some sort of pressure on some bloke to stay with some woman. This can be anything from criticising some bloke for sleeping around to telling some bloke how much you love him. This may not have been deliberate, but that was the effect.

I’m starting to think that you are possibly the oldster and a little behind the times. I have never heard anyone say "he's just sowing his wild oats" except for you. There is and always was pressure on blokes not to sleep around. How else can anyone explain the amount of ridicule directed at Tiger Woods and Shane Warne? If you must know my age, it is 35, so when I was developing an interest in girls, the only way that I was “socialized (pressured) to behave” was to be a snag. We were told to be caring, sharing and into long term relationships

Suze

While I agree that a certain amount of self-confidence is necessary in life, experience tells me that over-confidence is much more prevalent than under-confidence, particularly amongst the young. While there is no shortage of cocky young blokes, we can be sure that they have plenty of people around them giving them honest advice. My concern is that many people seem too preoccupied with protecting the self esteem of young women to give them realistic advice. The furore surrounding a letter to a newspaper is particularly disturbing. He only said the obvious. I am not about to sell young women short, just to take the easy way out
Posted by benk, Sunday, 24 January 2010 12:51:31 PM
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Yep, your memory is definitely slipping.

You were the one who posted the term "sewing {sic} his wild oats" (23 January 2010 10:36:20 PM) before I did. In any case, anyone under about 100 who hasn't heard that term has led an oddly reclusive life.

I see you haven't come up with any equivalent sayings for females that would constitute anyone encouraging them to "tart around."

Btw I am not lying about anything. Is it that you think that all women pursue blokes to get hitched and somehow you're not being pursued so... women are too ratbaggy to meet your high standards ? I don't quite grasp where your concern lies. I know that there are many decent young men and women; and some ratbags of both sexes. I think the behaviour is more generally excused in males than in females (and I don't agree with excusing it at all).

Btw - you made a crack about posting while intoxicated or something. That was a bit nasty; uncalled for and non-factual.
Posted by Pynchme, Sunday, 24 January 2010 1:20:22 PM
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I don't think I have to say anything more on this subject Benk,
because Pynchme has it about covered!
You go girl!
Posted by suzeonline, Sunday, 24 January 2010 7:53:33 PM
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Nice compliment Suze, so easy to tell people how wonderful they are.

However Pynchme, you haven’t proved much. I have heard the expression before; I even copied it (bad spelling and all) from one of Suze’s posts and inserted it into my response. That is why it was in quotation marks.

On the other hand, I am still far from convinced that this expression is in common use. How many times have you heard it used in relation to a particular bloke in the last year? Maybe ten years? Didn’t think so.

I am also similarly unconvinced that the attitude that it conveys is widespread. Witness the recent outpouring of hate at Tiger Woods. Or the way that Shane Warne’s sex life turned a gifted athlete into a laughing stock. Or the outpouring of hate directed towards any bloke who leaves his girlfriend. Or the way that sleazy blokes always pretend to be looking for a long term relationship, no matter how obviously untrue this is. Or the way that most women tend to think more highly of a bloke while he is in a long-term relationship. Society doesn’t use one liners to describe these blokes, just four letter words.

Whatever the socialisation of men, it still does women a disservice to tell them that flirting or sleeping around are wise choices. Why sacrifice the chance to have a meaningful relationship with the best bloke you could possibly get for something so short term?

You ladies both posted shortly after midnight on a Friday night. My guess that you had both been drinking might have been untrue, but it wasn’t that harsh. I would like to see a world where people were a little less thin-skinned. Sometimes we all need to hear messages that make us a little uncomfortable.
Posted by benk, Monday, 25 January 2010 6:00:47 AM
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This topic was raised in another forum site that I inhabit, that is frequented mainly by men who are either in the armed forces, have been in the armed forces or can relate, at least in part, with those men.

Many forum participants are 'those of Sam', others from Canada, Australia, eastern and western Europe, parts of Asia and many other countries.

To a man (and the couple of women who also contribute) they thought that this was either a beat up, or the result of some puritanical and repressed guy who still thinks that just because a woman dresses in a certain way that she is acting like a whore.

These guys have sisters, daughters, wives and female collegues that they respect. They don't respect the person who wrote the letter to the Darwin newspaper.

It is he who has the problem, not the women of Darwin, or anywhere else.
Posted by Dougthebear, Tuesday, 2 February 2010 8:50:53 PM
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