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The Forum > Article Comments > In praise of men > Comments

In praise of men : Comments

By Warwick Marsh, published 19/11/2009

Today is International Men's Day: 'The world needs men. Men are the key architect of our bridge to the future.'

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"No-one will ever win the battle of the sexes, because there's so much fraternising with the enemy."
Anon

All chauvinism is mistaken but people are entitled to their intolerant opinions. What they are not entitled to, is coerced funding to propagate those opinions.

So if the original problem you are trying to correct for, Vazza, is "bigotry, miss-information, discrimination, prejudice and denigration of males being carried out by a feminist or anyone else within the education system", the political action you should be calling for is the abolition of government funding for such chauvinism, *not* for a whole new set of propaganda funded under coercion to try to offset it.

One thing I would like anyone to answer is, what is 'equality' supposed to mean? Obviously human beings aren't equal in fact, and if they were, human society would cease to exist. If one group of human beings have babies, and the other doesn't, what does it mean to say they are or should be 'equal'?

The concept of equality seems to be literally meaningless, unless anyone can shed any light on this.

But worse, it seems to be used to introduce a double standard by which women have the advantages of patriarchy without the disadvantages, namely an obligation on men to provide for their biological offspring, without an obligation on women to provide sexual services in exchange. According to this now-dominant orthodoxy, if women use coercion to force men to submit to being treated as money objects, that is fine, in fact it's a 'right'. but if men use coercion to force women to submit to being treated as sex objects, that is rightly regarded as a crime.

If 'equality' is to be the basis of gender relations, and this is the basis for forcing men to pay for women's interest in looking after their children, then why does not men's interest in having sex "equally" justify the use of coercion to obtain satisfaction of this interest?

It is no answer to talk of men's supposed 'responsibility' to provide for their offspring, since that is what is in issue.
Posted by Peter Hume, Friday, 20 November 2009 8:50:52 PM
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Anticeptic <"They're "nice" jobs, surrounded by "nice" people, in a "nice" environment. They have their own forms of "dirty", such as bedpans and cleaning drssings and the odd abusive patient (who can then be sedated, how "nice"), but they don't involve much risk and they don't involve much dirt or noise or heavy physical labour."

Yeah right Anticeptic! I have been in the industry for years and have seen many male nurses and carers come and go- they usually find it too dirty or tough. Let's talk dirty shall we?

Cleaning faeces covered people- often dried on.
Patients vomiting stomach contents or blood onto you.
Washing blood or faeces off beds, walls and floors after a messy death.
Cleaning maggots from festering wounds.
Emptying loose bowel contents or urine from bags into containers.
Emptying wound drainage bags of foul-smelling pus, bile or -whatever.
Holding sputum mugs while people cough up parts of their diseased lungs or green phlegm. Or not catching it, and you clean it off the walls. Using caustic antiseptics and cleaners on a daily basis.
Picking bits of bone, flesh or cartilege out of cancerous wounds.
Collecting gangrenous toes from dressings after they have fallen off the foot. Smelling the gangrene- and retching.
Stepping over or into animal or human faeces as you make your way into someone's home to care for them.
Do I need to go on?

All this, and the emotional trauma that goes with death and sickness.
Is any of this dirty enough for you?

I don't see a gender difference as far as jobs in our community go.
We all do what we are good at, or can physically or mentally handle.
I certainly don't see it as some sort of contest to see who has the worst job.
Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 20 November 2009 9:48:37 PM
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suzeonline:"I have been in the industry for years and have seen many male nurses and carers come and go- they usually find it too dirty or tough"

Oh dear, Suzie, did I cut a little close to the bone? As i said, nursing is a field that has been tailored to the requirements of women, so it's hardly surprising that the few men who might like to have a go find it a less than welcoming field.

When a field is male-dominated and has evolved to suit male preferences there is likely to be action by the Anti-Discrimination Commission. Of course, the Commission can't hear any cases involving workplace discrimination against men, so nursing should be safe from an enquiry for a while...

Thank you for your list of "dirty" nursing jobs. As I said earlier:"They have their own forms of "dirty", such as bedpans and cleaning drssings ", which your list confirms.

Houellebecq:"you said that a lot when you were married"

Not as much as she would have preferred, apparently...
Posted by Antiseptic, Saturday, 21 November 2009 5:54:56 AM
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Actually I don't think that there is a single 'real world' job that cannot be equally performed by men or women. It is the nature of the individual, apart from their gender, that counts.

Of course there are some 'jobs' that do require one gender or the other: those in the performing arts or 'adult' services come to mind.

Where I see women as different is, almost universally, in their attitude towards personal appearance and certain other intangibles. I would have a lot more respect for women as a gender if they could bring themselves to a collective decision to not need all those manicure and pedicure shops that have proliferated. To not need to get their hair done so often. To not spend exhorbitant amounts on shoes and fashion. And to agree that astrology and horoscopes are really just trash. (when is the last time you saw an asrology section in a "men's" magazine.) If you add 'cosmetic surgery' to this list you will see what I mean: most women who want boob jobs should be seeing a psychiatrist rather than a plastic surgeon, and that goes double for their male partners.

I will believe more in equality when the frippery has gone. So much wasted time, effort and money.
Posted by Dougthebear, Saturday, 21 November 2009 9:03:52 AM
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I'd like to make a tribute to all the men who have stood up for a cultural change against violence.

"White Ribbon Day was created by a handful of Canadian men in 1991 on the second anniversary of one man's massacre of 14 women in a university in Montreal."

http://www.awu.net.au/182_2.html

I'd like to publicly acknowledge my gratitude to my father-in-law who overcame the adversity of his childhood, as an orphan, to become one of the most decent people I've ever known. He's now deceased but his role modeling made my spouse the wonderful man that he is and that legacy has in turn been passed on to our son - who knows how to use his strength for good, and our daughters who measure every man by the standard set by their father and brother. I'm grateful to my male relatives who gave me a bounty of wonderful childhood memories; especially Uncle R., an ANZAC like many of my relatives, who imprinted on my heart and mind the knowledge of how noble, loving and loyal a man can be, having cherished the love of his life for 50 years.

I thank the ANZACs and others in our Armed Forces who have fought bravely and suffered nobly for good and just causes. I thank the men who have welcomed women into their ranks in all fields and those who have shared centre stage to acknowledge women's accomplishments too, in same or parallel occupations, past and present.

Thanks to all the good men,

Pynch
Posted by Pynchme, Saturday, 21 November 2009 12:23:33 PM
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Btw Suzie, you didn't mention all the heavy lifting that nurses are required to do, as well as technical knowledge and expertise they must have (eg: in ED and ICU) in spite of having to achieve academically to get into the job in the first place and to further their profession in research and teaching.

Thanks for all that you do too; and thanks to the blokes who have the courage to take on a supposedly 'girlie' occupation.
Posted by Pynchme, Saturday, 21 November 2009 12:30:18 PM
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