Contd.

To reiterate, we have on OLO a group of middle-aged men who equate flirting with cock-teasing. Clearly there is a break down of communication between some males and some females.

Women who believe that the only way they can progress in this world is through manipulating men and the men who see all women as being like this are, unfortunately, a large enough percentage of the population to be a real problem – reflected in the high divorce rate. Some men and women have expectations about each other that are completely at odds with reality.

As for you telling me how to treat people:

I write my posts sincerely and if what I have to say is disagreeable to some - that is not my problem. I write as if to intelligent adults, which is how I like to be treated. However, many here construe a difference of opinion to be a personal slur - that I cannot control. But I can choose to ignore those who persist in verbal assault.

Bushbasher

The topic is about young men accessing porn on the net. I am sure there are young girls who do so as well, however I was addressing the topic and also the fact that the bulk of porn is consumed by males. What consenting adults do in their bedrooms is not of the slightest concern to me – although in order to consent to anything it helps to be fully informed.

:)

Fractelle: 'However, many here construe a difference of opinion to be a personal slur - that I cannot control. But I can choose to ignore those who persist in verbal assault.'

Fractelle: 'No wonder you fail at, or are miserable in, your relationships with women. Then I have to wonder at the calibre of woman who would bother with you to begin with.'

(Note: not one post in that thread even addressed one of her posts let alone contained personal comments or abuse prior to this)

Ah, it's like shelling peas. This victim positioning from Fractelle is so tiresome.

People seem to be forgetting the point of the original article. It was supposed to be a serious presentation from an Academic about anomalies found during research for a major work.

The important issues that have arisen from this article are:
* Dr Bray apparently can't distinguish the subject of her own study, and therefore probably also hasn't properly defined the subject of her own study.
* The level of understanding of how to use the Internet exhibited by Dr Bray is woeful, and clearly influencing her ability properly set up tests and gauge results.
* Dr Bray's understanding of current Australian Censorship Legislation is equally woeful.
* There is such a clear bias exhibited in this short work that I fail to see how Dr Bray can continue with the major work since the probability that it is also based on bias rather than evidence is so high.

For the people wanting to assert that Dr Bray's “discoveries” are likely to lead to some undesirable behaviour and therefore action is required, the onus is on you, and Dr Bray, to provide EVIDENCE that there is a causal link between the viewing the material in question and any behaviour. I have previously said no such evidence exists. The onus however is still on you to provide evidence, or admit there is no link between this material and any behaviour.

If you are not going to use evidence or proper Academic standards then Dr Bray should not be using her Academic credentials. And, the opinions stated as to the “likely results” of viewing such material should be clearly defined as just that, baseless opinion derived from bias, fear and a callous disregard for the freedoms of others.

fractelle, the topic for you may be men accessing porn, but that is not bray's topic. of course, you're free to slide/alter the topic however you wish. but given bray's article, i think you've chosen a confusing thread to do so. if you wish to discuss men accessing porn, it would be clearer to do so free of the atmosphere of bray's charges of abuse and child porn.

womp, i thought everyone had already agreed that bray's article is tendentious nonsense.

Fractelle, "To reiterate, we have on OLO a group of middle-aged men who equate flirting with cock-teasing. Clearly there is a break down of communication between some males and some females."

I think you are talking about very low level flirting that has been regarded as social oiling, although many men - as can be seen by the reactions on OLO - do regard all flirting as unnecessary and misleading. So I reckon it is best avoided unless both sides have the sort of long term relationship that ensures complete understanding of each other's values and motivations.

Frankly I cannot see how flirting would be supported by say Moira Carmody where men say (and they do) that it is a major impediment to
understanding the woman's interest and desires. For there to be ethical consent surely there should be ethical negotiation (ongoing negotiation as Moira would have it) and the one-sided artifice of flirting is not conducive to that.

Moira says that young people have great difficulty in establishing the rapport that is a pre-requisite for negotiation and ethical consent. Discouraging flirtation by girls, who readily mimic their mothers and celebrities, would go a long way towards improving things for youth.

Moira says that young women experience difficulty in saying no. So their flirtation says yes and presumably they remain mum for the deed, regretting it later. Not a good look at all.

Psychologists regularly express concern about flirting as a damaging game, for example Eric Berne who is of world renown:

http://www.ericberne.com/games/games_people_play_rapo.htm

I agree with Elka, Monday, 24 August 2009 10:35:46 PM

someone said: "you googled sex and found sex"
no, she googled sex and found rape, degradation, torture, violence.

The article may have talked about internet censorship but has everyone missed the bit where this site was recommending:

Some guys help a girl home when she has had to [sic] much to drink. We say, call your friends, bring out the camera and then take turns to f### that drunk slut to a pulp!! Make sure you film evey [sic] minute of her humiliation and brutal f### that passed out little f### hole so hard that her grand daughters will be sore!!.

This is inciting violence.

Have you also not drawn the connections between the attitudes and behaviours of various "football" players involved in sexual abuse of women, particularly in groups? Or the horrific gang rapes in Sydney in 2000/01? all these real life events mirror the sort of activities promoted here and I'd bet any money the perpetrators had watched plenty of porn just like it prior to committing their acts of violence.

Nevermind the legalities of censorship laws - the bigger question is why is there a demand for 'fantasy' sexual violence against women and what can we do about reducing the 'demand' for such material?