Also I fear it may be a symptom of men feeling powerless with women, and having an outlet where they can pretend they are in control. Now any feminists will always bang on about men having all the power, but perhaps this is pretty clear evidence that a lot of men don't feel very powerful in their relationships with women.

Maybe they're emotionally controlled by the women in their lives, or are reduced to a begger for sex in the relationship which they resent, or they don't have the communication skills or balls to ask for the dirty sex they want from their partners for fear of rejection (maybe due to this snag business above), or they don't want to feel they will be seen by women as close to a rapist via an extrapolation of their sexual aggression and lust.

It may be ironic they are watching rape porn because they fear being seen as a rapist, but that's why it is acted out in fantasy rather than reality. In reality these men are probably terrified of women, and terrified how women judge them because they have tiny weiners.

So the rape fantasy for women takes away their guilt at being sexual, because it's all the man's fault she's doing these nasty lustful things. He's making her do it, so she can enjoy the sex and have no guilt. It frees her. The rape fantasy for men takes away their guilt that they are too submissive in their relationships with women overall, and that they are emasculated and hen-pecked. It's a fantasy whereby they have some control over obtaining their sexual needs and aren't begging for it all the time, and they aren't always partaking in the act in what they perceive is their partner's terms, where it's all candles and cuddles.

That's why I think rapists and guys who watch rape porn are quite pathetic really.

Fractelle, I don't get the appeal of abusive and or violent porn. Likewise the over the top makeup, silicone or steroid enhanced actors don't do it for me.

As for the reduction in sexual assault rates, the material I've seen suggests that the rates involving assaults by teenage boys drop corresponding to internet takeup. That makes sense to me, social and ethical skills along with values are still very much under development. Hormones are raging. Access to other forms of sexual outlet is hindered at every turn, negotiating consent as an underage person is very difficult, assess to prostitutes is generally out of the question for legal and financial reason's, printed material can be difficult to get (and parents seem to like discovering that stuff and making an issue of it).

Pressures build with few or no socially acceptable outlets for youths who lack the life skills which most adults aquire over time. Along comes the internet which many in that demographic will negotiate better than their parents, with access to a wide variety of material (and no giveaway magazine behind the cupboard). Sometimes substitutes meet a need which can be a real pain otherwise.

For adults there are still some social stigma's against the use of prostitutes (look at the nature of some of the personal attacks in recent threads against some where it's claimed that they use prostitutes). Masturbation still carries some stigma (lessening but still around) and access to porn seems to be regularly under attack.

There's still a mix of social values which don't necessarily work well together contributing to the angst in this area.

There are issues around legitimate expectations of fidelity in relationships which don't always go well with the legitimate expectation that sexual activity should not be forced on a partner. We can talk about ideals but those don't always match the reality of peoples lives.

R0bert

R0bert

<< There's still a mix of social values which don't necessarily work well together contributing to the angst in this area. >>

No kidding.

I accept that you aren't into degrading porn, which is why I feel I can discuss this issue with you.

There are a significant number of bitter (presumed mature) men posting on the "A-lot-more-to-learn-than-where-babies-come-from" thread, claiming that flirting is something that women do to men to "tease" or "lead on".

The points you raised in your post can all be solved with education. I do not see how masturbating to internet porn develops social skills or respect needed for interaction with young women and adult women. That is why I find it counter-intuitive.

As for raging hormones; we all went through our teens, male and female. I couldn't wait to start having sex, so I did and wish I had had more education before I dived in and knew more about saying "no" and meaning it.

Excusing young men (and young women) for bad behaviour because of hormones is a complete cop-out. Most males manage to grow-up without raping or developing a fetish for degrading porn: at least in the pre-internet days.

We cannot protect our children from the media, their peers or predatory adults. But we can educate them. One of the messages I 'get' constantly from a certain group of males on OLO is hatred. So I have to ask, "what are they teaching their sons and daughters"?

Teaching that masturbation is acceptable would be a start for helping those raging desires. I would also consider an introduction to sex via a brothel (where workers and clients are medically assessed; the workers having to provide a doctor's certificate).

And loads of opportunities for teens to socialise with each other. I don't want any young boys to grow into men who have no respect or compassion for others. And the same for young girls.

I know those statistics that show a reduction in sexual assault, but I don't see how we are achieving a climate where both sexes feel trust for each other.

fractelle, i certainly wouldn't characterise you or your question as feminazi, though given some of the nonsense on this thread, one must be cautious to avoid being jumped on.

i don't claim my pop psychology to be any deeper than that of anybody who has already responded, but i think the responses are definitely missing something, and worry me to some extent.

everybody seems to be writing (albeit tolerantly) in terms of what's wrong with people who view "violent" or "degrading" or "objectifying" porn. i'm not sure i buy that, that there's anything wrong with these people. not at least without an argument. and, as hoellebecq has pointed out, it's misleading to focus upon men.

yesteryear's "degrading" or "kinky" sex is now, for most, completely standard. oral sex, for example worries no one these days, except a few religious loons. but, until very recently, oral sex was definitely at or beyond the limit, condemned by many a psychologist, and not uncommonly illegal.

the fact of the matter is that many loving couples do what seems to me many strange things to express their love and desire. i may not understand it, though i don't feel it is beyond understanding. and i would look to understand it, not to judge it, not even judging it to excuse it. i am definitely not going to rush to judgment, saying that i regard what they are doing as wrong, or dirty, or destructive, or anything at all.

now, the viewing of porn reflecting such "odd" sex acts is a step removed. but i think if you want to understand the viewing of "odd" porn, you must first understand that it may not in fact be "odd".

Fractelle, it's not counter intuitive if you think that for some porn provides a release for tensions which they may not have other practical releases for. For others it probably bears no relation to their real world interests (people who like Die Hard movies don't necessarily like real world violence). For a small minority it may serve as inspiration. Porn's a poor substitute for the real thing but sometimes a substitute serves a purpose.

I don't excuse sexual assault because of raging hormones but do think that we need to be careful not to create no win situations for teenagers to the extent that it becomes just another thing that they are not allowed to do. As you point out teaching that masturbation is acceptable makes sense but many adults still seem to struggle with that especially if it involves visual aids (which do make a difference to many males).

The tough bit in that may be seperating grooming of kids with porn by adults from exploring by the kids - not something I've thought a lot about but it strikes me as an issue.

I'm assuming that those who will be prevented from perpetrating a sexual assault through access to porn have already pretty much missed the boat on some important life skills. I doubt that respect for the other gender will be enhanced by denial of access to porn, rather that if there is a linkage then taste in porn might be impacted by the persons values.

Good contexts for plenty of social interaction makes sense.

"One of the messages I 'get' constantly from a certain group of males on OLO is hatred.", I started on a comment about that but right now I'm not getting the words I need. As I've said before, treat them as you would like to be treated and see what difference it makes. I suspect that it won't always work but I'm optomistic enough to think that it helps.

Time for me to get some sleep.

Cheers
R0bert

R0bert

I see from your response I failed to make my points very clear.

Not only have I been subject to a tirade of personal abuse from a particular subset of male posters, but so too have most female posters on OLO - even the completely kindhearted Foxy.

This is the result of a failure (in the past) to adequately educate and socialise young people (male and female) to respect each other. For all that porn may be some kind of release valve for young males and that it may have resulted in a reduction of sexual assaults, is not an adequate solution to relating to women. How many of these young men will grow up with completely unrealistic ideas about women and join the embittered, sad men encountered here on OLO?

My points about sexual education and socialisation were very clear. It is not too late to save young men from being socially inept.

Nor have I said anything about banning porn - life is an obstacle course - the best we can do for our children is to prepare them. As we do by teaching car driving, information regarding alcohol and other drugs, so too with social interaction between the sexes.

Contd