SHF, thanks I think. Now maybe Houellebecq can get over his theory.

I completely disagree with your post, am bit hurt by it but it tells more about where you are at than where I'm so I'll try not to dwell on it. Maybe a little less outrage about the idea that someone may have taken your words differently to the way you intended them.

I do think some of you are too obsessed with power, you seem to want to evaluate everything in terms of perceived power (using filters of your own choosing) but my experience is that the large majority of people care little for it other than the power to maintain control of their own choices.

Those who rise to the top might be very concerned with it along with those who wish they could but most don't really care about it unless the lack of it starts seriously impacting on their lives. To evaluate everything in terms of power imposes a false stereotype on the lives of a great many people.

R0bert

Former Snag

So you’ve had at least 3 wives, huh? Gee, I really can’t match that. You see, I’ve been married only once, happily, for more than 20 years, and to a man I consider my best friend.

If you ever want some advice from a sociopathic femonazi on how to make a good marriage last, you only have to ask. Don’t be proud.

Houllebecq

I can’t keep up. All that rigmarole about you-said-this and the-author-said-that and if-you’d-said-this and the author-had-said-that, then we-wouldn’t-think-this and we-wouldn’t-do-that …

Is there some point to all this? … That is, other than to show that you seem to have serious control issues about how good/bad feminists should/shouldn’t say things that might/mightn’t directly affect how men feel/behave.

R0bert

‘… most don't really care about power unless the lack of it starts seriously impacting on their lives.’

That’s why feminists are concerned with it, because they see how the lack of it seriously impacts on women’s lives in a way that does not impact on men's lives. If you don’t believe the lack of power impacts on women’s lives, then you can never understand feminism.

'...the large majority of people care little for it...'

I might have thought that once, but life and experience has made me completely reconsider that paradigm. Power is like a two-way mirror – those without it see right through it, while those with it see only their reflection. I notice that the overwhelming majority of the male posters here – yourself included – look at women but don’t see them. All they see is their own reflection.

SJF,

'Is there some point to all this? … That is, other than to show that you seem to have serious control issues about how good/bad feminists should/shouldn’t say things that might/mightn’t directly affect how men feel/behave.'

Yes there is. As I said earlier, a simple 'yes robert, you were right. That is a stereotype' would have sufficed.

I don't believe in good and bad feminists, just common sense, practical, gender equity seeking men and women, and neurotic chip on the shoulder humanities department conspiracy theory feminists (constitutional feminists).

'I notice that the overwhelming majority of the male posters here – yourself included – look at women but don’t see them. All they see is their own reflection.'

Maybe the view is better.

Yeah like you see men! Come'on. Pot, let me introduce you to kettle. You cant even see that a lack of power impacts on ANYONE (male or female).

You're Marx's Constitutional Feminist in my post above. Not interested in any topic unless it's about women. And if it's not, you'll say it should be, and you'll find an angle to make it about women as this author has done.

I'm so glad you made up with r0bert I was getting quite worried.

"If you don’t believe the lack of power impacts on women’s lives" I believe it to a degree but I think that the power available to most men is massively overstated by some feminists. Perceptions are built around convenient stereotypes and miss much of the reality of peoples day to day lives.

We've been over it before, I doubt that we will change anything about that in a hurry. Women have been denied formal power at the top end of town, they have been denied one set of options (as men have generally been denied the other set of options). I suspect that views about the balance in that will depend on social conditioning, family history etc. I support changes which open up opportiunities to both genders.

Do you understand why supporting a blatently sexist comment about men on the basis that it's a "feminist analysis of power distribution based on gender" and describe feminists as "they examine the entrenched power structure inherent in gender stereotyping in an effort to raise awareness in women of how it has traditionally kept them disempowered" it's somewhat rich to be all bothered by a comment that some feminists are obsessed with power or for that matter to get upset with men who point out places where men have and sometimes continue to suffer because of gender.

You post "Because I’m a ‘bad feminist’, I’m not assumed to have any feelings – except greed and megalomania" after the sarcastic attack on men for not liking some blatently sexist remarks about men http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9288#148468 .

We apparently don't have feelings or if we do should never mention when something bothers us.

R0bert

Houlley
You asked - "I was curious as to why you thought it best to use rational logical thought to converse with formersnag. I think you have to try and relate to people on their own level."

I really don't know...

Formersnag
I think it says it all that you perceive moderate women as the "silent" majority. Silent being the operative word. You still have not defined what you mean by a feminazi.

"If you don't know "ANY" of your own, femanazi propaganda AT ALL, then heaven help you. Here is a hint, why don't "YOU" name just "ONE" of the feminist "ten commandments" that is true, or ONE SINGLE positive achievement for women/girls as a result of, 4 decades of feminism."

Formersnag, I don't define myself as a feminazi. I tend more to the humanist mold. That is why I am asking you to define it as I really don't know. What are the ten commandments of feminazism? I suspect it might be similar to misogyny but in reverse.

As for positive achievements of feminism - there are many - equal pay for equal work, womens' refuges for victims of DV who prior to feminism basically had to suck it up, women being viewed less as sex objects but as real people with feelings and contributions to make to society. And most importantly for men the opportunity to have meaningful relationships with a 'real' person on an equal-ish footing.

R0bert

'Do you understand why supporting a blatently sexist comment about men …’

THAT is the sort of manipulative comment that really gets up my nose. It’s the kind of comment that pretends to be inviting discussion, when it’s really slamming the book shut on it.

Basically, the only criteria for any discussion of the original 2 quotes you raised are (a) that the quotes are blatantly sexist, (b) because you say they are blatantly sexist, they are, and (c) anyone who dares to examine the quotes in any way other than as blatantly sexist comments must be supporting sexism and (d) is so is so is so.

What you don’t even begin to consider is that to a lot of people, these quotes were NOT sexist comments at all – blatant or otherwise. They were comments that shone a spotlight on how the different social conditioning between the genders (and races and classes) could create different responses to the same situation. Go back and read the context and you will see that this was almost certainly the author’s intent.

I believe these comments were both justifiable and worthwhile. The fact that only a tiny handful of people here picked up on their merit – e.g. Suzeonline – does not detract from the important issues they raise.

If you want to respond to this, I'll read it but won't reply. I'm worried about the damage to my wall being caused by throwing my head at it.

Hooley

‘I don't believe in good and bad feminists, just common sense, practical, gender equity seeking men and women, and neurotic chip on the shoulder humanities department conspiracy theory feminists (constitutional feminists).’

Ah … don’t look now, but you just explained why you believe in good and bad feminists.

And … please. Do we have to keep on hearing about these Constipational Feminists all the time? If you are really so concerned about these dreadful women, dob them in to the Tax Office or something.