SJF:"'Often, men get angry. They don’t like to be put down. There is no forgiving or collaboration to avert a fist-fight or hissy fit ...'"

And often, they don't. Glad to have cleared that up.

Take me, for instance: haven't been in a fist-fight since I was about 13 at an all-boys boarding school. Part of living in that environment is learning conciliation and modes of negotiation to avoid the potential for violence, especially given the vast power imbalance that exists between an 18 year old young man and an11 year old boy. I very rarely throw hissy fits, although I do get angry and sometimes express it. Do you know a single person of either gender who does not?

I suspect that the story is the same for all of my friends, except perhaps a couple who don't take drink well. You'll note that it's the drink, not the masculinity that causes the problem.

SJF:"Women get this negative stereotyping all their lives"

What some women get is what some men get who choose or are pushed by circumstance to step outside middle-class mores - pat critiques in the form of stereotypes.

They aren't always the same stereotypes, but some are certainly shared betwen the genders.

SJF:"NO feminist can - or will - ever behave with the requisite amounts of integrity, consistency and decorum you seem to expect from them"

Then why the hell are we letting them into positions of authority? It's nice to see that you're finally starting to acknowledge there may be a problem with the whole notion of promotion based on adherence to an ideological standard.

SJF, thanks for that response. Appreciated.

I don't really want to lighten up to tollerate sexist stereotyping in what seems to be a serious article. Feminists have not changed attitudes to negative stereotypes of women by lightening up about those stereotypes when they are put seriously. I don't want to swap perceived power inbalances, I want to see them gone. Letting this type of stuff go by because women have had to put up with similar for a long time does not remove discrimination, it just shifts the target.

Most men rarely need to resort to fisticuffs or hissy fits in their day to day lives, the authors contention is simply wrong and should be easy to reject. The authors assertion about responsibility is different, I don't like it because it relies on stereotypes and subjective judgments about perceived privilige then wants to apply that to individuals.

Feminists who won't stand against negative stereotyping of men or who mock men for standing against discrimination against men are perpetuating the very divides that feminists often claim to be trying to stop.

R0bert

robert,

'Feminists who won't stand against negative stereotyping of men or who mock men for standing against discrimination against men are perpetuating the very divides that feminists often claim to be trying to stop.'

I think you're the one who's being too patient.

SJF,

All that bluster. A simple 'yes robert, you were right. That is a stereotype' would have sufficed.

Aunty Nellie.

Aunty Nellie was a wonderful woman. She came from a time when men were men and women were women. She so loved the feeling of soap suds on her finger tips. Bouncing around the house listening to the latest AJAX jingle, she waited for the love of her life, Gerald, to come home. Oh what a time they had in those days. The days were endless, so they never went to sleep.

But that meant Gerald sometimes got angry. He'd put on his nasty face, something Nellie didn't like. But she'd clean away that frown with one hitch of her skirt, something Gerald had become accustomed to. All the while she had two brothers, whom she liked to go jackarooing in that old school of hard knocks. Being 'deprived', many people thought she would have noticed her nephew, who thought she was quite attractive. But when she finally retired and moved to Brisbane, it was too late anyhow. By that stage, her very existence was starting to have the effect of destroying feminism.
This made her a dangerous woman!

Around this time, another young lady called SJF was just finishing her own studies at the university of confounding feministing principles. It was a large building built in the shape of a Doc Martin with a half testicle on either side of the heal. She was quite well versed on the power dynamics of the world, and decided Auntie Nellie was a threat to her entrenched view of how women were victimised. This would not do, a woman happy with her lot in life, happy with her gender roles, and happy with her husband. 'This cant be!' said SJF. 'Cant she see the husband she loves is oppressing her!'. But Nelly just winked at her and also laughed at her ridiculous dress sense. 'I know what you need m'dear!' she laughed, while pointing at the butcher shop window, with all tose tasty sausages in full view. And SJF was left to feel bitter about it to this day.

And that was how feminism was destroyed.

R0bert

'Feminists who won't stand against negative stereotyping of men ... are perpetuating the very divides that feminists often claim to be trying to stop.'

YOU are the one who seems to be stuck in this paradigm that feminists are trying to bridge gender divides. Leave that sort of thing to Relationships Australia - it's neither feminism's role nor responsibility.

Feminists are not out to stop stereotyping - either positive or negative. Rather, they examine the entrenched power structure inherent in gender stereotyping in an effort to raise awareness in women of how it has traditionally kept them disempowered.

For example, virtually all negative stereotyping of men relates to their having power – i.e. being aggressive, violent, crude, ruthless, sexually predatory etc. By contrast, virtually all negative stereotyping of women relates to their NOT having power - being nags, manipulative, petty, demanding, hysterical, sluts, teases etc.

These can also work as 'positive' stereotypes, e.g. male aggression is encouraged in business, sport and war, and women are encouraged to manipulate men's egos through flirtation etc to get what they want rather than coming across as too demanding if they simply assert their own needs.

I think what the author said was fair in the circumstances. Men's social conditioning to assert their power over other men creates a higher probability to inflame the situation described than women's social conditioning to conciliate and to please. Instead of considering this important point, everyone here - some feminists included - threw themselves into yet another 'feminist hypocrisy' beatup.

Houllebecq

‘He'd put on his nasty face, something Nellie didn't like. But she'd clean away that frown with one hitch of her skirt ...’

Yep. Women’s innate carnality is their weapon of 'power' over men! Thank you, Hooley, for reminding us why the public identity of women in most countries is reduced to that of either a scantily clad siren or an anonymous walking tent.

"YOU are the one who seems to be stuck in this paradigm that feminists are trying to bridge gender divides" - I'm not feeling all that alone here although it appears that most of the anti-feminist posters agree with you. If I belived you and the anti-feminists on that front I'd be joining the anti-feminist crowd.

There are certainly some feminists obsessed with power and much of the analysis/belief stuff which I disagree with is the one sided intepretation of power and privilege issues. There is a whole lot of semantics in there I could get tripped up on but in the end I don't think the power issues have been as clear cut as some want to make them out to be. We are unlikely to agree on that anytime soon.

I support the type of feminism which works towards equality even when I disagree about what the starting place was. I don't support the type that tries to achieve it's ends by putting men (or non compliant women) down or by plying off stereotypes to get an dishonest advantage.

R0bert