What the same as the Israeli push to strip arabs, who dont sign an oath of loyalty, of their citizenship should be condemned?

Why do you continue to arrogantly tell other countries what they can and cant be. If Jordanians consider themselves "not palestinians" who the f#$k are you to tell them otherwise?

The single greatest obstacle to peace is not palestinians admitting they are really jordanians but israel not admitting it is an expansionist, genocidal, ethnic cleansing, theocracy that wants all the land west of the jordan river and will stop at nothing to obsfucate and lie about it while they build their "facts on the ground".

Another load of old cobblers from one of the Israeli apologists and propagandists who write articles on these forums,I don't see anything about the brutal expulsion of Palestinians from the homes in East Jerusalem for the past 50 to 100yrs.
So the Israeli Govt can expand it illegal settlements,until Israeli returns to the 67 lines,and dismantle all the settlements which are on stolen Palestinian land,don't see anything by Mr Singer and rampant land theft or the attacks by the settlers on Palestinians,till these stop,and both side give up violence people like Singer are able to get away with making up history.
I was reading about people like Singer who may or may not be part of an Israeli Govt group formed during the Gaza war to search out forums and defend or gild the lily about the Israeli Govt

David,

Are you trying to emulate Josef Gobbels?

According to Wikipedia he was the originator of the belief if a lie was audacious enough and repeated enough it would be believed by the masses.

Sadly for you David people who read OLO aren't Gobbels masses.

Also according to Wikipedia he wrote.

'It is not propaganda’s task to be intelligent, its task is to lead to success.'
and
'... claiming that Germany's belligerent actions were taken in self-defense.'

The military Junta running Israel in it's operations against the Palestinians has some things in common with the Nazi's operations against the Jews.

# Mikk, Frank Ryan, and Keith

You all seem to display one common factor - attacking me personally and ignoring the factual statements and content of my article.

This indicates either
(i)an inability to rationally discuss the article or
(ii)an acceptance of the accuracy of its content
I doubt from the tenor of all your comments that it is the latter.

So what do you find offensive or incorrect in the article? I am happy to discuss anything you care to specifically address in the article.

#Mikk

You misread my article. I quoted statements from Arab leaders saying there is no difference between a Palestinian and a Jordanian,that they are one and the same people. I happen to agree with that view. Do you? If not, what is the difference between them and on what evidence do you base your opinion?

well you are an apologist and propagandist for Israel,you never mention the Settlers killing Palestinians,the eviction of the Family's from east Jerusalem so that a bunch or religious jews could move in and seal more land.
You seem to think the Israel is entitled to the West Bank and Gaza,and you seem to be in the same boat as the bunch who believe in ersatz Israel
So where have I misjudged you if you swim like a duck quack like a duck you must be a duck,or a member of the Israeli agitprop dept formed during the Gaza war,whose members I have found on another forum while the war(massacre)was going on.
Nothing personal in it with me

'...the West Bank - which it (Jordan)occupied between 1948-1967 until it was lost to Israel in the Six Day War.'

The West Bank has never been Israeli nor Jordan land. It was originally part of the Ottoman Empire. After WWI it was allocated to the British Mandated, PALESTINE. (Consider the later UN created states of Jordan and Israel were also part of the Palestine). It's never been recognised by the world community as part of Israel or Jordan. It's citizens have never been recognised by the world community as anything other than Palestinians.

You are arguing that as the West Bank was won by Jordan in 1948 it's citizens are Jordanians. In fact it was only occupied by Jordan. It was never won from anybody. The people who lived there owned the place not the Jordanians.

Yet you seem to be proclaiming it as Israeli because it was 'won' by Israel but you won't concede, as would be logical given your previous argument, that it's citizens would then become Israelis.

The only thing Israel is doing is occupying the place, just like the Jordanians. They didn't win ownership. It is still owned by the people who lived there and who were designated by the UN as Palestinians.

Underlying your Gobbelsesque lie is the false presumption the Palestinians have never existed as Palestinians.

This is the mis-imformation you are spruiking in support of the Israeli military Junta... the occupying thugs on the West Bank. Your spruiking makes a propgandising behaviour and emulates that of Josef Gobbels. It has elements in common with the Nazi operations against the Jews.

It is legitimate to attack those who foster state-run terrorism and oppression. If you support and publicly defend those actions you do set yourself up for the sort of personal criticism you are receiving.

Your campaign supports dispossessing the Palestinians of their own representation, homes, land, livelihoods, freedom and basic human rights. Your is an atrocious behaviour here in our liberal democratic west. It might be ok in Israel. That would only highlight the difference between we liberal democrats and the Israeli fascists.

# John Ryan

I have never said Israel is entitled to the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is entitled to maintain a claim to the West Bank and Gaza under Article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the United Nations Charter. What area is eventually allocated to it is a matter for negotiation.

# Keith

"The West Bank has never been Israeli nor Jordan land. It was originally part of the Ottoman Empire. After WWI it was allocated to the British Mandated, PALESTINE. (Consider the later UN created states of Jordan and Israel were also part of the Palestine). It's never been recognised by the world community as part of Israel or Jordan."

Agreed - except that Jordan and Israel were not created by the UN.

"It's [the West Bank]citizens have never been recognised by the world community as anything other than Palestinians. You are arguing that as the West Bank was won by Jordan its citizens are Jordanians. In fact it was only occupied by Jordan. It was never won from anybody."

This isn't what I am arguing. West Bank citizens were accorded Jordanian citizenship and issued with Jordanian passports. You need to distinguish between citizenship and territorial sovereignty.

"The people who lived there owned the place not the Jordanians."

Not agreed. The status of the West Bank still remains territory of the Mandate that remains unallocated between the Jews and the Arabs. It is disputed territory to which both Jews and Arabs claim sovereignty. It is "no mans land" at the present time.

"Yet you seem to be proclaiming it as Israeli because it was 'won' by Israel but you won't concede, as would be logical given your previous argument, that it's citizens would then become Israelis."

For the reasons stated above your attribution of this view to me is wrong.

"The only thing Israel is doing is occupying the place, just like the Jordanians. They didn't win ownership."

Correct. Ownership is still to be decided.

The rest of your reply is more of the same - attacking the messenger and ignoring the message

About the same as you mate, you are what you are and as more and more people see through the increasingly flimsy defenses offered by the democratically(kinda) Govt with an acknowledged Fascist in it and the greater Israel people gain more and more power it will all end in tears.
When you and your kind get around to acknowledge that the Palestinians have a legitimate claim,the are not Jordanians or a non people we all might get somewhere

I refer you to UN resolution 181 of 1947.

David your statement is very revealing.

'...except that Jordan and Israel were not created by the UN.'

It is a denial of the role of the UN and the world community in the creation of the state of israel. It is astonishing you peddle this garbage.

Unless of course you are a Zionist at heart ... and believe your god created Israel. haha

#John Ryan

I would be interested to hear your argument as to the why an Arab living on one side of the Jordan River is ethnically, culturally, religiously or nationally different from an Arab living on the other side of the Jordan River when both areas formed part of the territory of former Palestine. Leading Arab spokesmen see no difference and have said so on numerous occasions. What do you know that they do not? Please share your wisdom with us.

# Keith

Resolution 181 (29 November 1947) was never implemented by the United Nations because the Arabs refused to accept it. It is totally irrelevant to the creation of Israel other than the expression of the will of the UN at that point of time.

Jordan was granted independence by Great Britain on 22 March 1946. Israel declared its independence on 14 May 1948 after the British left that day leaving the nascent Jewish State to face and defeat five Arab armies that immediately invaded western Palestine.

Jordan and Israel subsequently being granted recognition as states by the UN and admission to membership of the United Nations is one thing. Saying the UN created Jordan and Israel is wrong. They did not need UN recognition to justify their statehood.

I am afraid the garbage peddler is you.

Well David, since you didn't deny it, are we correct in assuming you truely are a Zionist?

Singer and those others who might foster the Zionist view would do well to refresh their memories of the actual history of just how the Jews were allowed into Palestine and the conditions of this occupation.
Arthur Balfour,Foreign Secretary to the British Government wrote to Lord Walter Rothschild, the head of the British Zionist organisation, on 2nd November 1917 quoting the British Government cabinet minute and known as the Balfour Declaration, the following:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people,and will facilitate the achievement of this object.It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,or the rights and political status enjoyed by the Jews in any other country"
This remains to this day the basis of Jewish presence in Palestine and has never been honored regardless of all the imperious statements emenating from all subsequent Jewish leaders.It also reveals how easily and heartlessly the British dumped on the Arab population without any consultation.These injustices and this indifference exists to this day.
To read the actual history of this British aquiescence to Zionist influence read the full history in the "Washington Report" November 2005 Pages 44-50.

#gazzaboy

Your post fails to explain that concurrently with the issue of the Balfour Declaration calling for the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine, promises were given by France and Great Britain of self determination for those Arabs also freed from 400 years of Ottoman occupation and control in the remaining areas of the Ottoman Empire. These promises subsequently translated into the creation of 21 sovereign Arab states.

Self determination for both Jews and Arabs was virtually a simultaneous event - although Jews had to wait until 1948 for their self determination to eventuate.

The territorial allocation made to the Arabs for self determination was more than one hundred times greater than the territorial allocation made to the Jews - three quarters of which was whittled away subsequently to create the Palestinian Arab state of Jordan in 1946.

In terms of the allocation of resources - the vast oil reserves that came under Arab control provided and continues to provide an enormous source of wealth to those lucky enough to have it within their borders.

Whilst the Balfour Declaration was a statement of intent by the British Government it had no force in international law until its incorporation by the League of Nations into the Mandate conferred on Great Britain by unananimous vote of all the League's member nations.

It should be noted that both the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate made no reference to the non- Jewish communities having any political rights in Palestine - only civil and religious rights that were not to be prejudiced.

One can argue that these rights were and are still being prejudiced but in the context of the current unresolved 120 years old conflict between the Arabs and the Jews I believe Israel's non-Jewish communities already enjoy far greater civil and religious freedoms than are available to non-Jewish communities in the 21 existing Arab states. Certainly as Israeli citizens they also possess equal political rights with the rest of Israel's citizens.

If peace ever comes to Israel and it can apply its financial resources for peaceful purposes the position must improve.

David

haven't you noticed nobody is listening to your propaganda anymore.

# Keith

"haven't you noticed nobody is listening to your propaganda anymore."

That's your take Keith but maybe they are still listening and cannot find any fault with the following facts as I have presented them.

1. Jordan and Egypt are the two successor states to the Mandate for Palestine currently exercising sovereignty over 94% of former Palestine.

It is my belief that the only possible solution to ending the territorial claims by both Jews and Arabs to the remaining 6% (the West Bank and Gaza) is by redrawing the boundaries between Egypt,Jordan and Israel in direct trilateral negotiations so as to allocate sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza between those three sovereign states.

2. The idea that a new Arab state (where none has ever existed before) can be created between Israel, Egypt and Jordan in the West Bank and Gaza has been pursued since 1993 without success and will in my opinion prove to be unachievable unless the Arabs moderate their view particularly in relation to
(i) demanding 100% of the West Bank
(ii)insisting on millions of Arabs being allowed to emigrate to Israel

Surely I am allowed to express my opinion without the vilification and insults that you and others seem to rejoice in under the cover of anonymity most times. Obviously you don't think so.

Rest assured whilst anyone misrepresents the facts I will be more than happy to correct them - as I have had to do with you on many occasions and no doubt will do so in the future.

Can you imagine what would happen if two soccer teams played against each other with different sets of rules. There would be mayhem - much as is experienced when people argue among themselves based on facts that are not first agreed between the disputants.

There may well be facts (as distinct from opinions) that cannot be agreed on - and these need to be identified to see if common ground can be reached. I am more than happy to engage in that process if necessary.

David you are a Zionist pretending to be fair and rational. What a joke. You actually believe a Supreme Being gave you and your people title to a scrap of land. Thank goodness the West and Christianity abandoned those sorts of ideas ... Christianity at about the time of Christ's sermon on the mount when Christ himself rejected the teachings of the Hebrew Priests and Hebrew Book and the West over nearly 2000 years after much thought, investigation and debate which included an enlightenment and reformation.

The point of view you represent and promote stinks and it isn't really appropriate for you to try to ram it down we liberal democrats throats in this century and especially while taking advantage of our liberal democrat society.

Go spout it to those who think Zionism fair and to those it confronts daily in Palestine. You'll find acceptance there, won't you?

# Keith

Your comment:
"You actually believe a Supreme Being gave you and your people title to a scrap of land. Thank goodness the West and Christianity abandoned those sorts of ideas"
shows how little you know and understand about the nature of the Middle East conflict.

The West and Christianity for your information were instrumental in the formulation and introduction of the League of Nations Mandate in 1922 that called for the "reconstitution of the Jewish National Home in Palestine". The member countries of the League of Nations voted unanimously in favour of the creation of the Mandate.

Please note Keith the operative word used was "reconstitution"

The West and Christianity were also instrumental in ensuring the rights granted to the Jewish people under the Mandate were preserved when the League of Nations was wound up in 1945. This was done by inserting Article 80 in the United Nations Charter to ensure the provisions of the Mandate were going to be fulfilled notwithstanding the demise of the League of Nations.

Your further following comment is very strange:
"The point of view you represent and promote stinks and it isn't really appropriate for you to try to ram it down we liberal democrats throats in this century and especially while taking advantage of our liberal democrat society."

I thought liberal democrats and liberal democratic societies believed in the freedom of speech and the right of every citizen to express their opinions freely and fearlessly. Am I wrong in that presumption?

Why don't you think about how a Palestinian being evicted from his home in the West Bank thinks about his freedoms under Jewish Israeli occupation.

David until you accept the behaviour of your mates in Israel is quite the opposite of everything we Liberal Democrats believe in you cannot expect us to swallow your propaganda drivel. Express all you want but to us the actions of your mates and your refusal to denounce Zionism say way more than any weasel words you use to try to justify the Jewish Israeli progrom against all Palestinians.

David the tide of opinion is turning against Jewish Israel. The more you try to justify, excuse or obscure their disgraceful behaviour the more you highlight it.

Keep it up, you are giving the Palestinian cause great help

#Keith

I'm heartened that you want me to continue writing further articles. Just shows you how something positive can emerge from a dialogue.

Yes we are all thrilled that you recognise the assistance you are giving the Palestinians.

Odd how public perceptions are formed isn't it?

You should note, and worry for many reasons, is was only the German people who were fooled by Gobbel's lies, everyone else who was able to read the westen liberal media, in the liberal democratic west, were wide awake to his rantings! As the Nazi's expanded their territory the liberal democratic west rallied, curbed and defeated their expansionism.

Worrying times for you Zionists are here, David.

never posted before, but the discussion between David and Keith and others has prompted me. Yep, don't happen to agree with all David's views, but I get tired of the other side simply attacking the person, not the arguments... perhaps others are persuaded by these sort of 'posts' but I reckon peace needs a more rational approach, especially when emotions are justifiably raw.

# avid reader

I am encouraged by your post. I am more than happy to try and answer any queries or disagreements you might have with my views

Avud Reader,

Could you get David to address the landstealing and illegal building on the West Bank. While you are at it please get him yto disavow the Zionist influence over the current Israeli Government.

Ask him why he only ever blames the Palestinians for the violence in the region.

That is why I attack him.

He will dodge, evade, distract, obfuscate and tell outright porkies to hide any opinion or idea that the Israelis are ever in the wrong.

Ask him why Gaza is a ghetto, why Israel needs to occupy the West Bank and why there is a cold war wall around Israel?

I'll wager you'll become as frustrated as I have with him. All he really ever has to do is deny he'a zionist and be critical of the expansionism of Israel and I'll talk sensibly to him and have a modicum of respect for him.

You will, if you ask questions critical of Israel, soon come to dislike him and his attitudes.

Go on ask questions he'll answer but you'll find yourself scratching your head and looking askance at the things he says.

He'll soon alienate you!