A school is a school is a school, weather it be public or private. All funds to schools should be distributed equally, regardless of if they are public or private.

The difference is that private schools have Fees paid by the parents, usually very high Fees. These fees allow the private school to add more facilities, etc.

That is the difference. The parents pay highly for this difference. The Government does not pay for the difference. It does provide funds to private schools per student on an equal basis with public school.

If you wanna pay high fees to send ya kids to school, thats your choice.
If they were all payd equally, you wouldn't have a choice.
So quit ya monin and make your choice.
When times are tough you have to make a choice.
It's either the kids get pulled out of school or the 4 wheel drive goes, it's your choice.

The author says
"why on earth would parents freely choose to send their children to crappy, run down private schools?".
She suggests two answers, and has apparently no interest in whether either of them is correct - if she had, she would have discovered a third possibility.

That is, she would have discovered that there are schools which are funded less (that is in total funds, parent fees plus government money) than state schools, where the parents do not generally have rocks in their heads, and which are considerably more popular than local state schools.

She also says "other countries that publicly subsidise private schools (and there aren’t many)" Since all the countries I've lived in do, I rather doubt the accuracy of this. But in all these countries, there are privately run schools, which are _fully_ funded by the Government, have to be open to all, don't charge top-up fees - seeming in many ways just like part of the public system.

To understand what happens in Education and the perverse reasons why students fail Parents should read the archives of PLATOWA.com
Parents pining to achieve Private Edu for their kids simply realise Political intervention in Schools is a triple zero ; in Victoria Political intervention is Law now so there in no inderpendant Schools in Victoria . Julia Gillard writes the Curriculum end of story .
There are Privately Funded Schools though and rightly a percentage of the Tax Private School Parents pay gets to the School , rightly so surely no one would want to tax them twice .

The dead hand of education is the Educrats , Nut Cases and Fanatics define Education in Victoria , and these people have unlimited power , you effectively loose your children , they pay lip service to you but you have no choices it's their way or no way you are disenfranchised . You even get to apoligise to Aboriginals for having an assembly on their land . Where is my Country then ? I would feel like a Plum growing on an Onion plant at the 'Spittal of Glenshee'so I guess I am a misplaced person...homeless .
Education is a Discipline but not in our schools , it's a Curriculum there is no Discipline it's decidered by out of touch Educrats and a long out of school Politicion with no Kids inventing new Curriculums .

What a catastrophy !

It is time for a completely new approach to the problem of public schools, and in particular the need for a solution that does not cost the taxpayer very much money.

Two simple amendments to the NSW Constitution Act would go a long way towards solving the problem. These would be:

1. No person can become or remain Premier of NSW unless they have school age children attending a NSW public school.

2. On pain of forfeiting their seat in Parliament, and becoming ineligible for re-election, the Premier must cause these children to be enrolled in the NSW public school nominated by the Leader of the Opposition.

However, a more practical approach would be to just issue education vouchers, with a value equal to the average cost of educating a child in the NSW public system, to each child in the State, and these would be redeemable at any school their parent chooses.

Another simple approach would be to recognise that parents vote in elections, and are therefore able to enforce their desire to choose the school that their children attend. If you want parents to choose public schools, you need to make then attractive. The competition to enter one public school, James Rice Agricultural High, shows what is needed, which is more selective schools, from which disruptive students can be expelled.

Life is definitely full of choice - for some of us. I truly believe that we all pay our taxes; although the rich are good at paying less; and therefore we should all have some of our taxes contribute to the education of our children. I think the real issue at hand is the undeniable fact that the private education sector does appear to get a very generous helping to the public coffers. If the distribution of funds was even that would be a whole different subject but we all know that the distribution is obviously not even. The private sector are getting more BER money and are given total flexibility about how they spend that money while public schools get considerably less and no choice/say about how to use it. It is sad that the social gap in Aus continues to grow and with a system like this will continue to.

Once again I see the politics of envy and spite.

That the amount invested per child overall by state and federal governments is less on independently educated children than publicly educated children.

That privately eductated children get better results show that supporting private education means that for less expenditure the government get better results.

Even the labor government which is fundementally opposed to "elistist private schooling is not stupid enough to withdraw this subsidy. The consequences would be:

- They would have to find places for up to 50% more senior school places than they have presently as the huge No of low to mid range independent schools have to jack up their fees.

- The budget for education would have to increase dramatically

- The results for the country would plummet even further.

- The government would lose the next election in a landslide.

It would be similar to banning private health cover for being unfair to those that can't fund themselves.

The issuing of education vouchers would see the private schools get even more.

The way to fix education is to bring the public schools up to the level of the private schools, not bring the private schools down to the public school level.

Would someone please explain to me – and to everyone else – how it is fair that some children receive a better education than others?
How can some children have more rights to an excellent education than others?
Surely, every child is born to be as deserving as every other child.
What right does anyone have to deprive them all of the very best?
What has happened to equality?

An ever-increasing amount of public money is being poured into private schools in Australia while the public school sector languishes. The same thing is happening in Britain where the Blair government caved in to pressure from the increasing number of religious schools. The aspect which I find galling is that large sums of taxpayers' funds are being given to so-called Christian schools where the kids are taught that evolution theory is wrong and that God created the world in 6 days in about 4004BC,i.e., biblical (Genesis) literalism. In recent times the creationists have dressed up their biblical inerrancy ideas as "Intelligent Design" or I.D., which is taught as an opposing theory to evolution. I.D. is simply a religious belief. The situation is intolerable in an enlightened world where evolution theory forms the basis of the teaching of biological science in almost all schools and universities. Australia once had a proud public education system. Australia is a secular nation, and our public schools have always respected that ethos. The fact that taxpayers' money is being used to indoctrinate kids in some schools with creationist nonsense is deplorable.

Atlarak - it's possibly because teachers are not all exactly the same, if they were then the education would be the same regardless of school they went to.

It would be nice to find the very best teacher, and clone them, that way your point about why should some child miss out on the very best is solved. Impractical but such is life, a teacher can only handle a finite number of students at a time.

I suspect that private schools pay more for good teachers, the pay raises for teachers in the private sector are based on merit and thus they can attract the cream of the teachers and deal with ones permorming at less than optimal levels.

Why you can't do that in public schools is a question most parents ask and are shouted down by the teachers union if it goes any further.

I support Julie Gillard on this and her plan to rank schools and the teachers know this is one step closer to actually being evaluated on their skill and it horrifies them, doesn't it?

just a thought ..

phenologist writes

'the aspect which I find galling is that large sums of taxpayers' funds are being given to so-called Christian schools where the kids are taught that evolution theory is wrong and that God created the world in 6 days in about 4004BC,i.e., biblical (Genesis) literalism. '

Actually I am delighted in this. The tax payers money has been wasted for far to long teaching not the theory but the fantasy of evolution. Get over it and stop being bound by your secular dogmas. Try finding out what true science is about. Evolution certainly don't line up.

Throwing money at the public system is equivalent to the throwing money at dysfunctional communities. It employs many bureaucrats whose philosophies have created many of the problems and unfortunately the tax payer gets no return. The systems that worked are envied and criticized. At least Mr Rudd is smart enough to know this. No wonder so many 'secular' parents are bailing out of the zoos.

My questions are genuine.
How can it be fair that some children receive better education than others?
What right do we have to deprive any child of the very best education?

Atlarak. How can it be fair that some children receive better education than others?

One of the reasons is that some of the children are the prodegeny of feral parents who have no interest in helping their children have a positive attitude towards school. That has nothing to do with the money given to schools. Feral parents = feral children.

Another is that some parents are willing to pay very heavy fees to a private school to ensure their children receive the best education. Then, at home, they help them with their homework & encourage them to do well.

What right do we have to deprive any child of the very best education?

No right at all & most of us don't. But, I can't speak for the ferals. It's not the Government that deprives a child of a good education it's the feral child & it's feral parents & their attitude towards getting an education.

Quoted text :

"It would be nice to find the very best teacher, and clone them, that way your point about why should some child miss out on the very best is solved. Impractical but such is life, a teacher can only handle a finite number of students at a time."

No need to do that too expensive , what about 25 years ?

Much better way is to Pay the Teachers properly , Teachers are the lowest paid University Educated workers in Australia , madness really considering what they have to put with ; an Environ with NO discipline , bad language , aggressive behaviour , have to suck up to the Educrats or lose their job ; how bad can a work place be ?

I don't know about you but I know I would rather drive a night cart than attempt to teach the current lot of ugly ferals .

As predicted runner made an anticipated comment particularly attacking one of the best evidenced supported theories in science.
We live on a small planet in a 4.5 billion year old second (or more) generation solar system in a universe three times that age. And where does runner's god exist except in his own head?
Government funding religious schools is middle and upper class welfare and the money wasted in this way could be better used rescuing the potentially feral children of feral parents from leading an unfulfilled life.
From memory, a writer (I cannot recall whom) once stated, "Nothing is more contemptible than the smug acceptance of the inevitable imperfections of society..."
Introduction of a philosophy for children subject from preschool age would go a long way to improving the performance and life prospects of all our future generations, potentially feral children included. Yet our education bureaucracy ignores this potential whereas in some parts of the word the outcomes of introduction of such a subject has been outstanding. Congitive ability improvements of 6.5% have been recorded in Scotland, with marked improvement in behavior as a major bonus.

Don’t think you will find the best teachers in private schools and the worst in the state system.

I have seen plenty of “trainers” training bright kids to pass exams and receiving glowing accolades from administrators and parents – in both systems.

I have seen plenty of educators burn out and leave teaching to the delight of the “trainers” – in both systems.

Ask a bright school leaver who their best teachers were and you will get a list of the trainers who helped them pass exams.

Ask the same person five years later and I bet you will get a much different answer.

The unspoken problem with those people who don't want public money going to private schools is the Religious part of the equasion. There are still people, & I see it has raised it's ugly head here, that hate Catholics. Now, of course, there are all sorts of Religious schools & the "Hate Catholics" Mason/Protestant thing has just carried over to people who don't know the history behind it all.

An interesting article in todays Courier Mail, Our Queensland page 64 (1 Aug 09) with a letter to the editor dated (25 Feb 1928. from "a bush woman, Ipswich) Worth a read to see what the real debate is all about.

This is a ridiculous debate. Of course private schools shouldnt get government subsidies. Why should any private enterprise. That is the essence of "private" in this context. Private = Not government!

Government has an obligation to provide ADEQUATE public schools for all children due to the mandatory education laws passed by said governments. That is all the obligation they have. Any government money given to private schools is waste and deprives another area of spending.

While ever private schools have auditoriums, pools, shooting ranges, tennis courts, horse riding, not to mention the classrooom, library and laboratory facilities etc and public schools have leaking taps, broken toilets, toxic heaters and general lack of anything then there is a critical breakdown of the basis of why we give governments the power they have and I would even say it is fraud and corruption and deliberately divisive and destructive. A leftover from the rule of johhny coward and his cultural war on progress and anything that might smack of social or community.

I believe for our countries wellbeing we must dismantle the private school system and its handouts and return to local comprehensive schools that serve the whole community. And while we are at it stop the little buggers travelling halfway across the country to school. Cluttering up public transport and being a nuisance or worse being driven miles by their parents in a glorified military vehicle, polluting everything while they drink their organic soymilk and glorify in their recycling of egg cartons for the spawns school project.

You choose to send your kid to a private school you pay for it.

I love these black and white, good and evil, right and wrong arguments.

But idealism is rarely a complete answer.

So how about instead of asking "why isn't it so", we explore the "what if?"

As in "what if the government stopped subsidizing private education".

The first thing, of course, is that the private schools would have to jack up their fees.

Fewer parents could afford it, therefore many would close.

The few that remained would continue to hire the best of the best in the teaching profession, simply because they would be charging the earth.

Meanwhile, the government would have to open a whole new bunch of schools, and pay the (so we are told) peanuts to a whole new bunch of teachers. Overall, this might not be at all beneficial to the quality of education in public schools.

Which would pretty much guarantee even greater inequality between the Haves (who would now of course be limited to the Have-gazillions) and the Have-nots.

The quality gap between public and private education wouldn't diminish by eliminating the subsidy. It would widen.

So the twin objectives of improving the public system and reducing inequality would be well and truly stuffed.

Of course, the next question might be "what if the government banned private education".

That would be a whole lot less pretty.

On the whole, I'd suggest that the existing balance between investment and outcomes is probably not worth tinkering with too much.

It is possible the reason governments fund private schools is because it is cheaper than opening up another bunch of public schools to service a particular population.

In a perfect world there would be no private schools, every child would receive a well rounded and solid education, there would be no bullying and all children would be well mannered/respectfuol and we could all go tiptoeing through the tulips with joy and happiness.

Unfortunately in the real world, if there are major issues with your locally zoned school you cannot just pick up stakes and move to the next public school. Sometimes the only choice is a private school or homeschooling which is not always practicable.

If the better results are coming out of private schools it begs the question, why are we not getting those results from public schools?

Fact: Parents often wish to give their kids a Private School education.
Private Schools Principals and Administrators have real power to enforce standards and discipline. While problems like bullying, anti-social behaviour etc also occur at Private schools, incidence is lesser and response far greater. Disruptive students generally get pulled into line or moved along. Kids prepared to be educated get a fair go, Teachers get on with teaching and Mummy and Daddy perceive value for money. Parents chose schools for different reasons. Academic performance might mean less to some than the School ethos for instance.

Fact: Caring parents, regardless of what they can afford education wise, raise children with manners, respect for self and others and a sense of responsibility. They take active interest in and encourage their kids in academic and community endeavours. They engage with teaching staff in an appropriate manner if problems occur to reach acceptable outcomes.
The children of such parents will usually do well in the Education system regardless of "Private" or "Public".

Fact: There are too many unskilled or neglectful or 'should have been sterilised at puberty instead' parents.

Fact: There are too many kids who are disadvantaged as a result.

Fact: Ability to maintain a functional learning environment has been diminished in many State School environments because of lack of effective disciplinary choices and the BS that goes on when problems need to be dealt with.

Fact: There are plenty of little "ferals" and smartarses well schooled up on their rights but with no concept of responsibility (or consequences)

I could go on ......

Private Schools get funding because without them the Government would have to provide more public schools. Simple! Like private hospitals .... The taxpayer contributes less. User pays more.

As for "Equality" - Get a grip! There are "haves" and "have nots", smart kids and stupid, achievers and deadbeats and everyone in between. It doesn't change! How many commentators on this pretty dumb piece are parents who have or are in process of educating their kids (and have a clue)anyway? Not the Author methinks .....

Government has an obligation to provide ADEQUATE public schools for ALL CHILDREN due to the mandatory education laws passed by said governments. That is all the obligation they have. Any government money given to private schools is waste and deprives another area of spending.

Mikk, you are right. & the emphase is on ADEQUATE & ALL CHILDREN. Children that attend private schools are part of that ALL. The Government does provide ADEQUATE facilities, just barely, but ADEQUATE.

It's the same as you buying your child Dunlop sandshoes & not Reboks. Sandshoe are adequate & that is all your requirement to your child is. That's how the Government works.

It reminds me of when I joined the Army. I was told that my rifle was provided by the lowest bidder & just barely adequate, but fit for purpose.

private schools have auditoriums, pools, shooting ranges, tennis courts, horse riding, not to mention the classrooom, library and laboratory facilities etc and public schools have leaking taps, broken toilets, toxic heaters and general lack of anything.

The reason Private schools have these extra facilities is because PARENTS PAY the difference & they have fund raising & raffles, etc. They have to pay tradesmen to fix anything that goes wrong. Public schools rely on the Government repair provider, it's called Q something. It's a government public service, full of redtape, slow as a wet week in China, & twice as expensive as a private tradie.

What about moving the States and territories completely out of education? There is no reason why individual schools can't self manage after being given a model curriculum, educational resources and a budget by Canberra.

Apply the successful private school models that are already around.

It is a much better idea than continuing to pour good money after bad into self-serving State and Territory education departments which duplicate one another and selfishly protect their own territory.

Another thing, technology is poorly used and nor is it likely to be better employed as long as the current education structure and arrangements apply. For example, it is already possible to have the very best teachers teach thousands of students using conferencing technology especially of students are streamed. Equally such technology and centralised (model) lesson preparation could be used to mentor new teachers and to revitalise experienced ones.

I have only given a very basic example of what technology could do and the sky is the limit if top level consultants are involved from private industry. Technology can easily bridge the gap between school and the practical reality of the workplace, making learning more relevant to students.

Frankly I consider articles like this one to be the last gasp of the State education dinosaurs. Plainly a lot is wrong and pointing the finger at private schools to stir up envy and divide the community is an obvious, old diversion.

Everyone has the right to a decent free education.

I also have the right to flog my house and hock myself to the hilt to pay for the best all round education for my kids.

What is perfectly plain is that if the government reduced the subsidy, it would have to pay more elsewhere and there would be no more funds for public schools.

The whingers such as Atlarak and mikk are either too educationally challenged to understand this simple concept, or would rather maintain their lifestyles and would prefer to drag other's children down to their level.

Hey, Miz Caro, good to hear from you again.
This is an interesting and novel approach to a problem; looking at empirical evidence, instead of relying on ideology.
One of the key markers of human intelligence is to notice patterns, and make accurate predictions through analysis of those patterns.
If you can see a trend, and it is not to your liking, the intelligent thing to do is change direction.
I would have thought the pragmatic reason for studying history in schools, was to enable us to avoid making the same mistakes.
If there has been a period in our recent history which achieved better results for the majority of Australians, should we not take heed?
It seems to me, that in the last three decades of our increasing reliance on market driven answers to every problem, we have seen a massive increase in the gap between haves and have nots. We have seen an erosion in real service levels, and we have seen a restriction of opportunities for the lower paid, adults and children.
In an era of such technological advances, these trends defy logic.

Dear Grim,

Careful! Reliance on evidence, pragmatism and the use of reliable data makes one an object of suspicion to those who rely on supernatural revelation.

The existence of private schooling seems to arise from the broken nature of our public system. One could seek to fix that which is broke, but rather we have this bypass approach. This is good for those with the means to pursue the latter, but for the remaining stragglers it means another high hurdle in the life race.

Add that classism is alive and flourishing in Australia, it exists in straight white teeth, your home suburb, your speech, your dress, your schooling. Do you really think a banking executive on a few million a year will allow his kids to mix with the offspring of blue collars? Private schools are often youth branches of the Melbourne Club, it's who you know not what you know. That's why we need private schools, so the well to do can give their genetically challenged kids the necessary boost up.

Take control over childrens' education away from the parents? How is that fair?
Private schools are better because they have to compete. They can choose their teachers and can pay them what they want. The best education system in the world is in sweden and it is a full voucher system. No public schools, No (or low) school fees and a very well educated population. Why Jane Caro wants to give government bureaucrats more control over education is beyond me.

I have a question. If we were to phase out independent schools in Australia over, say, 10 years and implement an entirely public system of primary and secondary education, what would be the cost to government? Less than it is now with the existing multi-sectoral education system (public, independent, Catholic)?

I wonder.

Stickman,

It is clear that you have not bothered to read the above posts.

Assuming that the schools and buildings came for free the cost to the state would increase dramatically.

However;

Considering that the tiny subsection of the old Enmore public school on Metropolitan road sold for $2.8m, the cost of land and buildings to "phase out" independent schools would probably exceed $100bn in NSW alone.

This exercise would consume the entire state education budget ($8.7bn) for the next 12 years to be able to provide

Okay, I had been biting my tongue but now I’m about to vomit.

Some of you need to get real. Most parents pay large amounts for an independent school education so their children have a far greater chance at securing a tax payer subsidised university place. These places cost us around $10,000 per year.

I have suggested in other forums that a solution to the inequity within our system is to allocate these publicly funded university places on a proportional basis, reserving 65% to the government school students and letting those who want to let market forces and prospectus’ prevail can fight each other within their own share.

As for funding of schools if we stopped throwing money at the private ones, easy, just return the top personal tax rate and the company rate to where they should be. Under Howard the wealthy had the double benefit of tax reductions and the top wealthiest schools in my area receiving millions of dollars in extra funding per year, and still the buggers want to whinge. Rudd is showing little inclination to stop the rort.

As to the ‘feral parents and children’ crap being bandied about I have had a couple of conversations with a bloke who boards his children at the local grammar school while the family home is about 20kms away. He doesn’t help his kids with homework as he “pays enough for someone else to do it”. Works his arse off to afford it and to some of you here would make parent of the year, but not in my book.

Sure there are some difficult kids around but because they are often shown the door from the private system my sector is forced to handle a greater proportion of these children and the accompanying disruptions.

The excessive funding of wealthy private schools in this country is a disgrace and attacks the very Australian notion of a fair go.

Hi Odo. As a public school teacher of 22 years - with a lot of friends who work in the private system - I can tell you that the private syustem is not that simple. Each private/catholic and independent school has their own Enterprise Bargaining. For some of the teachers in these schools it means lower salaries than the public system with little or no workload or work life protections or family friendly conditions. For the wealthier private schools it can mean higher salaries. You neglect to mention that the private system usually sit back and wait for the public system to fight for and win salary increases and then use these wins to set their bench marks. My colleagues who work in the private sector constantly ask me here is SA when we are going to finally settle our pay dispute because it will automatically give them a pay rise.

The excessive funding of wealthy private schools in this country is a disgrace and attacks the very Australian notion of a fair go.Posted by csteele, Tuesday, 4 August 2009 12:19:14 AM

You just can't get it ; Governments respond to demand and that's what is going on here eg; no money no vote too simple really .

If I had my time over again with my five kids I would have them at Private Education .

The problem with State Edu is the fanatics in the background who believe only in the State , these people like you are so bitter and twisted Policically they refuse to grant private education parents any equity they own in the tax system at all .

Why don't you butt out and leave people alone who are responding to your ilks failure to present adequate results in the education of our children .

At least Csteele admits that the private schools educate the children better.

In the name of fairness they would like to increase the cost of education to the state and reduce the education to the lowest common denominator.

The tall poppy syndrome is the Australian way?

Well said Csteale. In the 22 years that I have taught in the public sector I have seen so many children who are turned away from the private sector because of learning difficulties, social problems, behaviour problems - you name it. The private sector do not want their statistics and resources burdened by underperforming students. I have had parents turn up with children in year 3 from Private schools because the school has flatly told them that they can not and will not cater for the childs learning disability. Who picks up this slack because they don't have the luxury of turning these students away? The public schools. So whose resourses are stretched and whose classes are coping with greater challenges? One of the classes at my school has a mentally challenged Down Syndrome student in a mainstream class with a teacher who is "untrained" for that level of disability, but as a system the school can not turn the student away. Little wonder the public schools looks worse. They deal with far more students with complex issues and with far less money and resources than the private schools. Fairness and equity does not always mean the same! You only have to walk through the grounds of a private school and then a public school to see how inequitable the resources and fascilities are.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Please don’t verbal me. I certainly did not say that private schools educate the children better rather I said they had a better chance at securing a publicly funded university place. These are two different things.

Bob Birrel’s work from Monash not only shows the dramatic inequities in the current system but also illustrates that when push comes to shove public school kids fare better once they are in university with proportionally lower drop out rates, better self reliance and stronger academic results.

There is a huge focus within the private system on ENTER scores because of the ability of these to translate into impressive prospectus presentations and high fees. Those not up to the job are kept from diluting these scores. If my daughter is lucky enough to be in the top 7% at her school then she will be competing with over 30% of those at the local grammar school for a top end publicly funded university place. This cannot be truly indicative of either her intelligence nor her ability.

You seem to want to reduce education to an economic rationalist paradigm but just because some of us don’t want to buy into such a market driven sector, either because we can’t afford it or for ideological reasons, shouldn’t preclude our kids from accessing our fair share of publicly funded university places. Let us have the proportion that our sector makes up of VCE students. If your lot want to go out and pay for a full fee university place for your kids if they miss out of securing a place in your sectors allocation I’m not stopping you. In fact I have seen the debate within the pages of the Fin Review, which is a better investment, private school fees vs full fee paying university place? Well you can go play in your own playground and leave us to ours.

Ours is not an argument of envy and spite; it is demanding a fair go for our children. But there are posters here who just don’t get it!

State aid for state schools.

I won't object to Melbourne Grammar digging up their oval for another fine edifice once there are enough seats in classes for all Northern Territory children (with breakfast and lunch thrown in) and the government schools in outer suburbs of Melbourne have shelves in the teachers' materials storage rooms.

I thought it was the other way around, kungka.

>>I have seen so many children who are turned away from the private sector because of learning difficulties, social problems, behaviour problems - you name it.<<

While those categories may not be "turned away" from public schools, their chances of actually getting any kind of education there are lower than zilch.

In my experience - which I admit is only as a parent, not a teacher - private education provides a far greater opportunity for the oddball - the asperger kid, the dyspraxic - than any resource-strapped public school.

Billie - taxpayers don't owe public school students breakfast & lunch. That is parent/guardian responsibility.

Re comments: ".. seen so many children turned away from the private sector because of learning difficulties, social problems, behaviour problems .."

The Anglican school my children attended had several Downs syndrome and other challenged students including 2 wheelchair bound. Was told school received additional Government funding for these kids who generally attended ordinary classes. Social & behavioral problems were minimal because of the schools approach to pastoral care and strict but fair discipline. Yes - if kids wouldn't obey the rules after every effort to counsel and correct, they were expelled. Good!

"Most parents pay large amounts for an independent school education so their children have a far greater chance at securing a taxpayer subsidised university place .."

My spouse and I wanted good overall educations for our 3 children in an environment that facilitated learning and supported values we were trying to instill in our offspring. Two were academically gifted, the other more average. All received very satisfactory levels of support and educational outcomes. Elder 2 went to University (both had part-time jobs) while the younger pursued hands-on training. What we and they didn't have to put up with was rampant bad behaviour, disruption in classrooms and second-rate teachers. What they had to endure was dress and manners nazis and expectations they meet obligations both in and out of classroom. We had to abide hefty fees and for child #3, shortage of vocational subjects. We were not overly well off and sacrifices were necessary for the cause. However it was one of the best investments we ever made.

Meantime cousin and friends with kids at State schools often struggled with kids not wanting to attend school because of schoolyard & classroom chaos, violence and bullying in one case. (School couldn't solve the problem - Surprise!) And this folks is one of the main reasons Private Schools do better.

So suck it up and do something about the Public system to raise the standard ie take a leaf out of the Private sector book.

Csteele,

You say:

"my daughter is lucky enough to be in the top 7% at her school then she will be competing with over 30% of those at the local grammar school for a top end publicly funded university place."

So either the kids are smarter or the education is better.

And in spite of the assertions, while there is a focus on results, there is a far greater focus on all round issues than at the public schools. These include music, art, community involvement etc. The kids work and play harder, achieve more and have more options later in life.

If it does not cost the state any more, then the only reason to call for the withdrawal of the subsidy is spite and envy.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Isn't it strange how most of us would agree with the concept of basic equality (equality before the law, equality of rights and responsibilities, etc.), except when it comes to our children.
If state schools are performing badly in comparison to private schools, then there must be lessons to be learnt.
And the answer cannot be privatisation or paying fees, simply because the majority of Aussies just can't afford it.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." are singularly unaffected by the existence of private education, Grim.

In fact, I'd suggest that the pursuit of happiness would most certainly include the choice of how one's child might be educated.

>>Isn't it strange how most of us would agree with the concept of basic equality (equality before the law, equality of rights and responsibilities, etc.), except when it comes to our children.<<

You are suggesting, I suspect, that the existence of private education somehow infringes upon the concept of "basic equality".

Does the existence of Maserati cars signify the same "basic inequality"? Or should they be banned as well, given that we have a perfectly adequate Public Transport system?

Does the existence of villas with Sydney harbour waterfront similarly infringe, Grim, given that we have an entirely satisfactory public housing programme?

Or perhaps you are equally incensed that my take-home pay, from a business that I founded, is higher than that of the counter staff at the nearby McDonalds, given that we both work "equally hard"?

If not, then what exactly is your concept of "equality"?

>>If state schools are performing badly in comparison to private schools, then there must be lessons to be learnt.<<

What lessons, exactly?

In order to command their exorbitant fees, the private schools have to do better than the State system, just to survive. So the quality differential is unlikely to disappear.

Why not just think of them as a benchmark towards which the public system should strive? Then everybody wins.

>>And the answer cannot be privatisation or paying fees, simply because the majority of Aussies just can't afford it.<<

I can't see anyone suggesting that the entire system should be privatised. Using a voucher system puts the "buying power" where it should be, in the hands of the consumer.

And since every taxpayer would get vouchers of the same value - there's your equality.

Dear Pericles,

It is not reasonable to try to remove all inequities in society. Outside of it being impossible it would be wrong as people should be rewarded for their efforts. However, I think we should try not to pass the inequities on to the next generation. That means children should have equal access to quality education regardless of their parents assets. Not only would that give them a fair go, but it also would benefit society. A talented individual should be able to contribute fully regardless of their parents' economic status.

Thank you, David.

Grim ............I am sure everyone would agree with you including all Teachers and Private Sch. Parents .
Can I ask if you have ever tried to negotiate a solution to a dilemma you have with a Gov. School .
You will be isolated and ignored by Teachers if you find you disagree with their opinion .

If you persist your next stop is the Headmaster , the HM will remind you that your childs education is their business not yours ,we are held responsible for your childs education not you .

Next you get to learn that Teachers are actually Education Professionals and then you will be at an acute disadvantage , guess what the next question will be .

Next is your local Pollie , he want's your vote , he's real nice .
Pollie writes a letter very carefully he must not ask a question lest an Edu. Beaurocrat simply sends back a preprinted flier declaring it's not EduDept policy to comment on School Policy . If Pollie gets it right and the B'crat (whose motto is "never make a decision in order to live forever") Turns it over to a meeting at the school with Edu B'crats , Teacher maybe 2 , Headmaster , Team Leader , Welfare/Care Leader etc and you , could be 9 : 1 , no one will speak , pregnant silence some may stare at you , you will feel obliged to say something as soon as they know they have done a number on you they will start on you , now your feeling negative , now they make on octopus in the middle is You and your "Greef" now they go negative from your problem they develop all kinds of crap that becomes the legs , eight of them , how do you feel now , you've just been snowed , 1/2 the Bcrats all frantically shuffling papers biro in hand then get up thanking you and leave , thats about it , don't worry they might say ................................you might say to yourself , well that was democratic ?

Equality in education means children being given an equal chance to develop their potential. It's a pretty basic and simple premise, comparisons with Maseratis and harbour side mansions are superfluous. Actually the Maserati as far as being able to get you from A to B has no more practical advantage over a Holden Commodore, the latter perhaps being more comfortable actually (and less likely to breakdown!).

One being able to enjoy the fruits of their own labour is a different matter to benefiting from the labour of others, including your own parents. Lets all rejoice that Paris Hilton gets to live in luxury and party hard while contributing little more than crotch shots to civilisation because she did have the mind to be a heiress to the Hilton chain, none of us lazy sods bothered to do that. Many of these opportunistic discrepancies in life are unfortunate constants we all just have to bare, but then there are some we can seek to fix, at least within our own limited sphere of the world.

I wonder if anyone would have ever volunteered for military service had we all possessed the selfish 'what's best for me and my immediates' attitude the private school proponents regularly display. How would it make sense for your own personal situation to engage that risk? Why should anyone volunteer for the CFA and the like when the time could be spent pursuing your own success? I've always seen a lot of irony in the way private students are sent on those altruistic field trips so they can learn the importance of giving, yet at the same time taking full advantage of the opportunity to buy a lucrative place in our social order.

Dear Pericles,

I’m not sure what state you reside in but here in Victoria the reverse anecdotally would seem to apply. My quite well off brother in law who has a child with some learning difficulties was removed from a prestigious private school to our state school because he felt the attitudes, services and support available were superior. My sister in law also moved her two children from a catholic school to our state school to do their VCE. Both remarked on the lack of condemnation towards gays and single parent families at the new school. There are some leaves from the private sector book that can stay where they are.

Without facts and figures I can only offer up these personal examples so I will not claim this is the case everywhere although I suspect it is not unique.

Further I do accept that a different approach to bullying and misbehaviour is taken at schools were the option of showing the child the door is not as readily available.

But I am proud of the way my children have stepped up to help those with difficulties within the school, their acceptance of difference in others, the support they have given and received from teachers.

Those whingers about 'inequity' between Public/Private schooling: You want 'equality' or lowest common denominator? Sounds much like the latter .... If it's not just hot air & skewed leftie idealogy you're spouting - look to improve the Public system.

At the beginning: Kids don't go from womb to classroom. There's at least 4 years of parental 'education'. While most exercise responsibility rearing kids with guidance, example and boundaries, some people should never been allowed to breed. Others are caring but clueless.

Make payment of "Baby Bonus" conditional on one parent completing a Parenting Course (or refresher) with additional incentive if both do so. This may improve the standard of 'raw product' as it enters the education system.

From entry through exit - Strict enforcement of codes of conduct which form part of the curriculum. Early vigorous intervention where children display behavioural/learning problems.

Early Education "Back to Basics" approach - emphasis on reading, writing & math. Regular external monitoring to ensure competencies are reached and remedial or repeat for strugglers. Enough moving them through the system regardless of ability to cope with next level.

Restore Headmaster and Staff authority! Codes of conduct must include consequences for different misbehaviours. GENUINE ZERO TOLERANCE for violence against staff, unprovoked attacks on peers and persistant bullying. Resurrect corporal punishment. Threat is often enough. Helped keep kids of previous generations under control. Find other 'disincentives' recalcitrants will definately find unpleasant - opposed to couple days suspension (Cool! says recipient as he/she hangs around Shopping Centres looking for theft/vandalism opportunities)

OK - let's look at staff. Are they competent? (More so now they're not struggling with crowd control!) Are students achieving expected learning outcomes? Ensure that staff are up to speed and provide ongoing monitoring, coaching and professional development.

Now the Public School is FUNCTIONAL students will be able to achieve more academically and personally, ultimately making successful transitions to workplaces, universities and wider community involvement.

Which is how the Private System largely operates .....

Who among the whiney brigade & posturers want to do something about RAISING the standard instead of dragging it down further?

Dear divine_msn,

I am sucking it up. I am spitting chips that the state school my kids go to has missed out on quite a bit of federal and state funding because they are going to be getting a new school. However this has been constantly delayed over many years and I now doubt now my eldest will get to enjoy the facility.

However the one that has really riled me was the School Pride funding, supposedly for short term maintenance. Our school was entitled to get $200,000 but when the local member announced the funding the five top private schools in our area all got the full amount but we only received $139,000. This was a lot more than what was first mooted but some serious lobbying right up to Gillard’s office saw the amount increased but not to the full $200,000 promised to me by the department.

And lo and behold the local labour member happens to be an old grammarian.

So get a little riled when the same local Grammar school received federal funding in the millions for a new equestrian centre while we get short changed on some desperately needed basic maintenance for a terribly run down school.

I’m going to keep banging on doors and whinging like hell to get a better deal for the school and my children. The thinking displayed by some in this forum would have me as a bad parent because I haven’t exercised my choice and withdrawn them and placed them in a better equipped school. But cutting and running is the last resort.

Instead I will lobbying hard to get the inequities in our system changed and doing my bit help the school get adequate funding. My hope is my children take from this a certain ethic that will serve them and whatever community they live in well.

So divine_msn call me a whinger if you like but if you have a problem with my sector wanting a fair share of the taxpayer funded university places then your greed isn’t part of the Australia I want for my children.

Replying to:csteele, Wednesday, 5 August 2009 11:11:32 PM

Well I really do hope it works out for you and your kids ; it didn't for me.
When I let them know exactly how unimpressed I was , they were genuinely amazed asking me 'What happened?'

Well indeed , I will not explain further ; it would be a vexation to my spirit .

csteele - Kudos to you for being proactive and fighting to get a better deal for your kids school. I hope you are part of a unified, organised, sizeable parent & citizen group.

I don't know what State you are in but here in Qld tertiary students pay fees (HEX). This can be paid each semester (receive a discount) or deferred until the student is earning above a threshold at which stage HEX debt is repaid directly out of wages/salary or yearly as Tax bill. HEX fees vary according to the Degree one is pursuing with resource needy courses (like medicine, vet science)attracting higher rates than business for example.

The taxpayer subsidises but certainly does not fund fully. Also if you are a High School leaver wanting a University place you will qualify on merit. If you are capable, have worked hard and your school has been up to scratch delivering the required curriculum you will get a place. The advantages "Grammar School" students get is they have been in an environment conducive to learning and where there is expectation they will knuckle down and achieve. The mean intelligence of the group is higher than average - genetic or opportunistic (Parents are often highly educated, successful, smart people who breed smart kids or a student has been awarded a scholarship)

That's the truth and it's unlikely to change. Keep a close eye on your offspring and ensure the standard of education ie curriculum and delivery at their school is up to par. Encourage and support constantly, be prepared to seek help if necessary. Mind the company they keep as unsavoury peer influence has ruined the chances of many a good but easily led kid. You will need to do all these things very diligently if as you say your childrens school is lacking resources. Good luck!

The greatest cost to Australia of the last 30 years of commercialisation of elitist schools is "It's not what you know but who you know and what school you went to". Parents pay big money to send their children to such schools so that no matter how incompetent they are they will get a well-paid job or directorship. The result is a land of inept arrogant bosses who disable iconic Australian companies then sell them off to multinationals at bargain prices.