Pelican:"Unlike you I don't expect nor do I think we can ever achieve absolute equality. "

Ah, well we're in agreement then. One of the reasons I dislike feminism so much is that it purports to be about equality while really being about shifting the balance point to significantly advantage women over men.

Biology made the genders different and able to achieve different things, from reproduction to physical activity to emotional responses to life expectancy, even to the types of cancers and other diseases that afflict us we are more different than similar. Feminist dogma ignores all of that in favour of a doctrinal position that men and women are, despite all their obvious differences, identical intellectually. They still want to have two bob each way so they look for the worst of male behaviour to compare with the best of female behaviour just in case anyone doubts that women are "nicer" and more deserving of support.

What all of that has lead to is the current situation in which male behaviour and motivations is examined solely in terms of how it fits with Feminist doctrine.

"Good" behaviour (deferring to women, lack of aggression, non-confrontational modes of interaction, quiet compliance with instructions) is "progressive" (sounds like a prison-officer's wet dream to me, but I'm one of the "other" men), while any form of rambunctiousness, self-directed initiative, independence of thought, unwillingness to accept feminist doctrine at face value is "reactionary" and those who act that way are obviously "living in the past" or "patriarchal" or one of the many other epithets that mean "he doesn't do what I want him to".

All this is leading at an enormous rate to a two-level society, in which women are to be the professional class and men are to do the ditch-digging. As I've pointed out in another thread, already at Aus universities we see Australian women outnumbering men 3 to 2 and almost no women undertaking trade or semi-skilled training, largely as a consequence of a determined program of indoctrination within schools.

"Girls can do anything, boys can do what they're told".

SJF:"Heart disease"

We were talking about cancer, thanks. I'll happily discuss heart disease independently if you like.

SJF:"certain diseases capture more attention and funding for a variety of reasons, few of which are ever fair. "

Well yes, that was my point. having identified this particular unfairness, which has been ongoing for many years, a genuinely egalitarian State should be working to fix it, but we both know that won't happen as long as men's issues are only interpreted in terms of women, as they are now.

Let's face it, if a bloke drops off the twig through prostate cancer, his wife will inherit the lot and have another 10-15 years to enjoy it. Not only that, but another "patriarch" has bitten the dust. In the skewed world of feminist politics today, that is known as a "win-win" situation...

Antiseptic this is old ground for us but you still seem to lump all feminists into the same basket. There are feminists who are very much as you describe but it's not the only form of feminism.

I've gained the impression that in recent years more attention is beginning to be paid to men's health issues (and not just because it keeps us earning longer). I've noticed as a single dad that there has been a significant shift in attitudes over recent years when dealing with schools and other's in the child related sector. I've noticed a range of places where there are genuine changes in the way some issues are discussed.

There are feminists who genuinely support equality of opportunity who also recognise that individuals will make their own choices and that outcomes will not always be the same. I may not always agree on which outcomes are relevant to the discussion on how we are travelling regarding equality but for the most part we are on the same side.

R0bert

pelican,

'It is not a competition to see who is the most hard done by or who is getting the most attention'

Oh yes it is! To the biggest victim go the spoils. That's how the world works these days. Haven't you heard about 'Raising Awareness'? Lobby lobby lobby! Gimme gimme gimme! Play those violins!

anti,

'Let's face it, if a bloke drops off the twig through prostate cancer, his wife will inherit the lot and have another 10-15 years to enjoy it. Not only that, but another "patriarch" has bitten the dust. In the skewed world of feminist politics today, that is known as a "win-win" situation...'

Hahaha. Classic.

robert,

'I've gained the impression that in recent years more attention is beginning to be paid to men's health issues (and not just because it keeps us earning longer)'

Yeah. I think it's because they have identified that men's health may affect women in some way;-)

'There are feminists who genuinely support equality of opportunity who also recognise that individuals will make their own choices and that outcomes will not always be the same.'

They may recognise it, but any unequal outcome is still ammunition for... Lobby lobby lobby. Gimme gimme gimme! Play those violins! for any feminist worth their salt.

What I'd one day like to hear from SJF....

The vast majority of men are good people, who don't rape even though many have the power to do so, who want to be good fathers to their children and provide for their family, and love and respect and often worship the women in their lives. Each gender has it's own crosses to bare, and while I'm interested in problems specific to women, I recognise that by concentrating so much on how women are disadvantaged at the hands of the mostly men in power, it can come across as just hating men sometimes. The majority of men are not any more responsible than women for that power given we live in a democracy and most people don't really have much power.

What I'd like to hear from Antiseptic....

Women are gorgeous. I love the way they are different, and have different needs to men in some areas. As society has been traditionally set up from a man's perspective, which was a decent way of getting things done, women 's needs weren't given enough attention. These days society is in a transition of women being more accounted for, involved and included in society and the added input and change can be a good thing. It might be hard to adjust and men might seem neglected for a while, but it will even out in the end and it will all be ok. Women love us for some strange reason, and even though they can have babies without us they seem to want us around, and they look good too!

Alternatively...

SJF....
I wish I had a penis, but let's face it men are really all just perverted abusive potential rapists.

Anti....
That bitch screwed me over and I'll be bitter about it for the rest of my life.

Robert:"you still seem to lump all feminists into the same basket. There are feminists who are very much as you describe but it's not the only form of feminism."

As long as those who hold more moderate views are willing to let the radical examples speak for them there is only one kind. I have taken several members of Dads on the Air and other father's groups to task for views which are not reflective of my own and i've frequently seen the same from other men, yet in all the time I have been lurking and then posting here, I have never seen a single case of a woman telling another woman anything but "you go grrrl" on a topic related to feminism regardless of the views expressed. I've experienced all too frequently the immediate efforts at ad hominem and some really quite horrid personal comment directed at me for questioning a view put by one of the radicals and never a word of "he might have a point, let's talk about it".

On the rare occasions that a moderate feminist has attempted to engage, as soon as one of the radicals jumps in, out goes the other.

R0bert:"There are feminists who genuinely support equality of opportunity who also recognise that individuals will make their own choices and that outcomes will not always be the same"

So why dont we hear from them? Why do they allow the radicals to speak for them and to make laws and policies in their name?

Houellebecq, I couldn't agree more with your "what I'd like to hear from antiseptic". How many times do I need to repeat that before the numbskulls actually read it do you think?