The main point that I think stormbay is trying to make is that:

Whilst Western liberal values encourage the freedom to wear or say what one wants free of coercion, there is ample evidence that most of those wearing the burqa would of their own free choice prefer not to and do so from pressure within their family or community.

While the banning of the burqa it can be seen as a restriction of freedom, to many it is removing the shackles.

As for the requirement for prayer, those that strictly adhere to it may find that it interferes with their work performance and if so will pay the price as far as career is concerned.

Thanks for the clarification stormbay.

SM I do understand your argument about removing the shackles but do you think a woman who is forced to wear a burqa will have any more freedom if she is not allowed to leave the house?

The best hope she has is if she has access to other people outside of her small group and to organisations that might offer support should she need it.

CJ Morgan, not allowing someone to leave their house is imprisonment and if it's voluntary, that's their problem not ours. If our cultural ways are unacceptable to them, let them go to where they are accepted. When secular women and men are in fundamentalist countries, they are forced to wear coverings, abide by religious laws and customs, or face the wrath of the authorities and people, that's not freedom of choice or expression, so why should they have it both ways.

Fundamentalists of all persuasions are exclusive, just about everyone they associate with is of the same mind and if not, they are rarely allowed contact or association without a minder, or snitch, especially women and children. These people can't afford to allow any reality into their lives, it exposes them for what they are, deranged. I've seen so much suffering by those trapped in fundamentalist organisations by birth or marriage and not really wanting to be there, but are so suppressed, their fear outweighs any rationale and that's what fundamentalists rely upon for power, fear, psychological suppression and doubt. You get frustrated when they seek help and are forbidden from attending, or manipulated into giving up, ending up on psychotropic's in deep depression.

The old saying give them an inch and they'll take a mile, is glaringly obvious worldwide with fundamentalism. The only way for a secular country to retain its identity and accepted free culture, is to rein them in and remove them from the public eye. Having this form of equality lowers their ability to function in dictatorial and suppressive manners. For a free country, we have to ban all things which threaten acceptable freedoms of association and accountability, otherwise we'll lose our lifestyles in the end, as history reminds us. These people thrive on double standards and suppressive hypocrisy, encouraging them only spurs them on.

Pelican,

That the men that force women to wear the burqa would simply confine them is too simplistic.

Men who restrict the women with the burqa generally also rely on them to perform the house hold duties such as shopping and general errands. Confining them would mean that he would have to do them himself, or allow the burqa to be relinquished.

Hi all- a little late but I've had no time to post lately.
Just wanted to say that I have a holy book that demands that men go around every day of their lives as the Dart Vader. Should be interesting and would stimulate my curiosity as to whom was under the disguise.
Would want to play the "Knock knock, who's there?" game all day long. Yeah, in fact my goddess thinks that men should disguise their voices and especially breathe heavily so that we know they're still alive under the disguise.

But seriously, whether it's imposed upon women by an imaginary being or by dark-aged cultures doesn't make a difference to me, it's as much nonsense to dictate to people what to wear as it is to dictate what they cannot wear, BUT wearing far too much remains a health concern (not being able to participate in sport, and also causes rickets and babies born with rickets) as well as a security concern.

Muslims need to be educated about these health issues as much as smokers, heavy drinkers, drug users, and obese people need to be educated about their particular health risks, especially when it concerns pregnant women.

Besides, we live with restrictions on wearing too little and these restrictions are accepted by everyone. If I run out in the street naked I'm sure someone will tell me to cover up (or not, depending which street I choose).

People go to nudist camps where they can completely uncover, perhaps there should be camps for those who want to cover from head-to-toe including their face as well.

And which lunatic Islamic politician recently said that women should only be allowed to show ONE eye through the slit as looking at two eyes would be too tempting for men?

However it is not really about the burqua is it? It is not about 'men' either. What we are really talking about is religious conservatism in Sharia law, mosques and Muslim schools and its effect on our way of life.

Apparently in the West it could offend our politically correct multiculturalism to be specific, so there has to be a Clayton's discussion with a dress as the subject.

Since when did we have to be so coy about the freedom and rights that we enjoy and hopefully would defend if required to do so? It is ridiculous to be hiding behind the skirts of feminism, pretending that the only 'problem' is 'men' preventing their women 'victims' from getting enough vitamin D. Other religions have held us under their yoke and we have thrown it off. With the Catholic church and others we don't even bother to distinguish between conservative and other factions, or apologise for our opposition to their continual attempts to limit our individual rights. Why is Islam being treated with kid gloves?