Error:

*Hence, Isra-"El".

The suffix is from Elohim.

Oliver,

I never claimed those derogatory words were yours, and I only quoted them as a counter-example that not only to some monotheists but also to some atheists “ ‘defence by offence‘ ... is like a drink is to an alcoholic“.

I have to accept that you still consider the language of the counter-example acceptable, as a “rationalisations or justifications stemming from centrism” (whatever that means), rather than simply admitting that there were people among adherents to all sorts of world-views, theist as well as atheist, for whom “‘defence by offence‘ ... is like a drink is to an alcoholic“, of which this was an example.

On the other hand, I am aware that you are not the only one on this OLO who short-cut their argument by making sweeping (mostly unfavourable to say the least) statements about theists, atheists, Christians, or Muslims.

As for Toynbee I certainly cannot claim having read all 12 volumes of his “A Study of History’“ but here is a quote from its One-volume Edition:

“(T)he higher religions will always be bound to strive to keep themselves disengaged from secular social and cultural trammels, because this is an indispensable condition for the fulfilment of their true missions.

This mission is not concerned directly with human beings’ social or cultural relations with each other: its concern is the relation between each individual human being and the trans-human spiritual presence of which the higher religions offer a new vision.”

Of course, by higher religions he means not only the three Abrahamic religions. I am aware that Toynbee was/is a controversial authority among historians, nevertheless I think most of his insights are still valid, although - in my IMHO as a non-historian - one needs more than just an ideological activist‘s short-sighted vision - theist, atheist or what - to appreciate him.

Katie0
>>the God of the Bible is the same for Christians and Jews (the claim to relationship is different), Allah of the Qur’an is a different identity<<

This is your opinion but with all due respect you are not as representative of Christian views as the pope, who said for instance this at a recent gathering of Christian, Jewish AND MUSLIM, representatives:

"Some would have us believe that our differences are necessarily a cause of division and thus at most to be tolerated.  A few even maintain that our voices should simply be silenced.  But we know that our differences need never be misrepresented as an inevitable source of friction or tension either between ourselves or in society at large.  Rather, they provide a wonderful opportunity for people of different religions to live together in profound respect, esteem and appreciation, encouraging one another in the ways of God.  Prompted by the Almighty and enlightened by his truth, may you continue to step forward with courage, respecting all that differentiates us and promoting all that unites us as creatures blessed with the desire to bring hope to our communities and world.  May God guide us along this path!" (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/holyland09/resource.php?res_id=1147).

I think this had to be said here, since there might be readers of this thread, notably Muslims, who might be confused by your words thinking that the animosity (whatever it is in political terms) exists between ALL Christian and all Muslim scholars and representatives.

Your sincere, but single minded words attacking the Muslim religion serve only those who want to rid our public (later also private) lives of any religion, any awareness of the “ways of God“ (in Benedict’s words), by lecturing us on tolerance, and at leat some of them wishing to supervise this variety of “private religions“ from their religion-free high horse.

Please note that I said “religion“, since if we want Muslims to learn to distinguish between the political and religious dimensions of public life, we should start by respecting that distinction in our dialogues and disputes with them.

Hi George,

You seem to be such a learned and wise "balanced" individual and a gentleman at that. Sorry I didn't respond to your last address to me on the Anglo/Celtic Tribalism article - I didn't know how to respond to the Pope's address which you put forward. But I do think that Benedict is a highly intellectual, peaceful and spiritual man. I'm only a recent subscriber to OLO. Do articles only stay on-line for one month? I attempted to check above article comments tonight without success.

I am a total peacenik but with critical faculties, and I am just unable to quash my thoughts about contemporary Islam.

I worry when there are currently over 30 to 40% of British young male Muslims (stats confirming this are plentiful) who believe that any Muslim who leaves Islam should be killed. I have concerns about honor crimes and killings (and Muslim female suicides) which are perpetrated by Muslims overwhelmingly, are being ignored and buried underground by all the so called do-gooders, British civil servants, et al. The second or third generations are becoming more fundamental than their more moderate folks.

There was a program on Compass several months ago on a bi-lingual model school in Israel, so there were Jewish and Muslim Palestinians in the same school. As portrayed, one incident in the program showed a Muslim father who took his 13 yr old daughter and Jewish friend to an amusement park. Casual conversation ensued, and the father had avered that he forbade his daughter to ever fall in love, and also if she was 24 yrs old and living on her own - he would kill her. And I'm sure he actually meant it. Wouldn't this guy have to be considered a so called "moderate Muslim", seeing he actually let his child mix with Jewish kids. Would you consider this an issue with Muslims? I would, and I tend to think that this kind of thought is pretty mainstream among Muslims.

Cont'd .. I know someone who is heavily involved with interfaith dialogue and he affirms, good dialogue with Muslims is pretty unattainable. They'll easily critise everyone else but will never take any criticism from non Muslims - They respond with the usual accusations of ignorance of Islam, or because you don't know Arabic, you don't know the Koran. There is no civilised intellectual debate fullstop. This Christian interfaith dialogue guy (and elderly) also has a Muslim neighbour who has on occasion said to him "I could kill you because you are a non-believer". A radical or moderate Muslim in the suburbs?

In the past, I have travelled overseas for a period of about 3 years on two trips - I like to think myself as a citizen of the world. I do have an insatiable curiosity of the world at large and of course, make my own judgements - and am totally hoping for a more peaceful world. There just seems to be so many personal anecdotes that I have experienced (and I read a lot) of the Islam actuality, that I cannot ignore. Check out some ex-Muslim internet sites.

Not to mention the clear negative evidence of experience of anyone who is not Muslim in Muslim countries. I tend to agree with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who knows more than me because she has been there!

Constance: Thanks for your honest remarks.

Five years ago I decided that the standoff between Islam and the West was becoming so dangerous I needed to try and understand why this was so. I set out to read up, in depth, on both history and theological underpinnings of the clash. I believe the long-term future of civilization is at stake.

Here are some books which I have read completely, and which I strongly recommend to you and anyone else who wants to try and understand where we are at and how we got here.

* THE KORAN [no substitute for reading the basic text! You will be surprised at how derivative, offhand and poor a plagiarism it is; and how repetitive, un-sublime and unattractive much of its content. The ‘good’ bits usually reflect the Torah, but there is not a scintilla of Christ’s teachings in it]

* THE BATTLE FOR GOD – Karen Armstrong [history of Jewish, Christian and Islamic fundamentalism, over hundreds of years. Very erudite and comprehensive]

* JESUS AND MUHAMMAD : PROFOUND DIFFERENCES AND SURPRISING SIMILARITIES – Mark Gabriel [he was a prominent Islamic scholar and teacher at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, but became a Christian. Excellent, readable comparison of the lives and teachings of Jesus and Muhammad]

* WHAT WENT WRONG? THE CLASH BETWEEN ISLAM AND MODERNITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST – Bernard Lewis [easy to read summary of how we ended up in today’s dialogue of the deaf]

* THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM – Irshad Manji [Canadian Muslim woman’s cry for reform of Islam, with many historical examples from the past thousand years]

* THE CRISIS OF ISLAM – Bernard Lewis [conservative Islam’s predicament in the face of modernity]

* THE MIDDLE EAST: 2000 YEARS OF HISTORY FROM THE RISE OF CHRISTIANITY TO THE PRESENT DAY – Bernard Lewis [most excellent and comprehensive; easy to read also]

* ISLAM AND WESTERN DEMOCRACIES – Cardinal George Pell [good first-principles analysis of the nature of Islam and why its own theology is incompatible with pluralist democracy]

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