mac: "I think that statement expresses what philosophers call a solopsistic view of knowledge. Presumably you wouldn't deny that WW1 happened just because you didn't experience it."

It may be solipsistic to deny WW1, since as you say I wasn't there. But I do live in Australian now and I don't see numerous headlines touting Muslim generated unrest in Australia in the news. I have seen the (very occasional) news of Italians, Lebanese, Croatian, Australian (bikies), Hillsong Christian churches, and heaven knows what else causing trouble. But I can't think of a single Muslim news headline, let alone the 10's or 100's of them that would be required to justify the paranoia shown here. I am sure you can find one or two, but then I do also vaguely recall Dalai Lamar supporters being arrested so you will need more than that.

mac: "where's your evidence?"

I need some? You are the one declaring them guilty here. Last I checked they have a right to the presumption on innocence. It is the Australian way, you know.

Trav: "I know of many Arab Christians, who will tell you about the stuff that goes on in their countries."

Let me tell you about the stuff Christians do. Perhaps we will all regress so the 18th century like the Amish? How about those ultra orthodox Jews fighting it out with moderate Christians. http://www.rabble.ca/babble/activism/chrisitans-rios Or how about a good old massacre, 20 to 30 Christian gunmen barged into a Hindu school and began shooting last September. http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/09/16/india.riots/index.html

Well, you say, that's different. And my retort is course it's different, it isn't in Australia. That is my point, as neither are these Muslim sects you keep banging on about. Muslim's and their mosques have been here since 1870, so that have had plenty of opportunity to make a public nuisance of themselves. http://www.islamfortoday.com/australia.htm If they are as bad as you say, there must be record of if somewhere. All I ask is you provide some links to it.

GEORGE: I agree that reform of Christianity (Reformation and Enlightenment) came from within, and that "this way led too many in the West to the loss of their religious identity … (and) even those (metaphysical) aspects of Christianity..."

John Carroll's book excellent book 'The Wreck of Western Culture: Humanism revisited" (Scribe, 2004) says

*Humanism on its own is not a culture, and the attempts to make of it more than it was, opened the way for demonic forces that only real cultures can check. (p143)

*In the nineteenth century, chaos manifested in … nihilism. The last places to stand, the rocks of Christian salvation and aristocratic honour, had splintered, leaving nothing under the feet. … The new reality was Nietzsche’s ‘death of God’ and [the view expressed by several characters in novels by Dostoyevsky that] ‘everything is permitted’. (p159)

I agree wholeheartedly with Carroll's conclusion (p267-8) that
*We need to recover our capacity for spontaneous and unselfconscious revulsion, we need to recognize just how fed up we are with this heritage – fed up in a way that frees us to move on. … It is time to bury the dead, and to start the difficult business of restoring our capacity for life. In the beginning, at the foundation, where all truth roads meet, was the WORD.

Muslims CORRECTLY point out bad consequences of licence in Western culture. Ed Husain ('The Islamist - Why I joined radical Islam in Britain, what I saw inside and why I left - Penguin 2007) writes

*When Faye and I return home from a night out and walk past heaps of rowdy, drunken teenagers vomiting on the streets we despair as much as anyone else. Anti-social behaviour in our cities, high rates of abortion, alcohol abuse, and drug addiction are abhorrent to all right-thinking people, not just Muslims. The neglect of the elderly, shunting them off to ‘care homes’, does not sit comfortably with most Muslims. When the centre of social life in modern Britain is the local pub, where do Muslims and others fit in? Can an orange juice ever be enough?

Rstuart,
“ these Muslim sects you keep banging on about. Muslim's and their mosques have been here since 1870, so that have had plenty of opportunity to make a public nuisance of themselves”
It aint necessarily so.
I think you’d have to agree that there’s been a few changes since 1870.
1) It was very much the case in the past, in Aust, that if you didn’t assimilate you were left behind. Now with our more “enlightened” policies people are encouraged not to assimilate. And if a group gets left behind or doesn't get all it aspires to – almost,weekly studies – will preach that it’s the fault of the dominant culture – a case of discrimination , maybe grounds for compensation and, certainly grounds to write a blog or article on OLO blaming Anglo-Christian tribalism.
2) With modern travel and media it is much, much easier for people to maintain links with their old countries and sustain old antagonism . I don’t recall reading anywhere about our resident Muslims in the 1800s threatening civil unrest because they didn’t like British Imperial polices re the Middle East or North Africa. Nor was wearing a veil so important until recent years.

CJ Morgan
Re “ Frankly , I wouldn't ask you to wipe my a### for me, Horus.”
And rightly so too, you haven’t needed anyones help since you bought that do-it-yourself kit three weeks ago

Regarding the protest of the proposed Muslim school in Camden. I was told by someone (a Christian) heavily involved in interfaith dialogue, that one very relevant reason for the obstruction was that this planned Muslim school would not allow any non-Muslims to join their school. The government rule for all independant schools in Australia is that anyone of any religion/denomination be permitted regardless of the religion of the school. Funny how this highly relevant point of issue has never been raised in any of the media.

Another thing he said was that any non-Muslim can never have any meaningful dialogue with any Muslim as they do not allow any criticism whatsoever, but they on the one hand can criticise other religions and other cultures - which occurs in their meetings. A bit of a poor state in interfaith dialogue don't you think?

One of the reasons that I'm less inclined to engage in these tiresome OLO Islamophobia/racism/xenophobia debates these days is that they're so repetitive. I only do so minimally because OLO remains a forum that lies somewhere between the Blair/Bolt et al wingnut end of the Oz blogosphere and the Larvatus/Blogocrats et al luvvie end.

Those who hearken back to the days of yore when the dominant social history of the Australian continent was Anglo and Christian are doomed and deluded - those days are gone, and will prove to be a blip in the history of human occupation of this continent, which extended for 50 or so thousand years in various degrees of ecological equilibrium prior to the gifts of European colonisation, industrial agriculture and capitalism.

Any prospect that Australia has for a socially, environmentally and economically sustainable future lies in our capacity to not only imagine collectively that ideal, but also to be able to organise together to achieve complex and difficult objectives.

Once again, I'm not very optimistic.

Islam doesn’t have a monopoly on religious intolerance against non-believers -

Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Judge other religions for not following Christ:

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7
Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

Several attempts at mass genocide (Europe and Rwanda plus the entire history of colonialism ) were at the hands of Christians.

All regions have their share of extremists as well as violent histories.

Religion itself isn't the problem.

Religious intolerance is.