cont...

"Today, almost 95% of world’s leading scientists are the sons of Christians. Should we then consider that Christian religion/Bible are the storehouse of all science? Does the world history support this? Or, should we say that ancient Hindu Kafirs got science of mathematics (numerals) from Rada krishna?" (Mirza in Constance)

The point here I believe is in the same vein as Relda and I have discussed. Religiosity is apt in the domain of mythos (Armstrong). Note, Mirza states earlier in the article you cite, Einstein didn't receive his scientific knowledge from the Torah. Scientific knowledge is logos. (not be confuses with logos the The Word, another meaning)

Science (logos) has struggled against religions (mythos)for centuries. Four hundred years ago the Christian Church would have seen itself the storehouse of all knowledge and also the storehouse of the firewood to burn those who disagreed.

Science involves theory and technology, but that relationship was not understood by the medieval Byzantine or Indus empires.

Armstong uses the word "mythos" in a descriptive sense and I doubt she sees myth, superstitition and mysticism, other than as a common state of human affairs and something highly significant to our history.

The Torah and the Bible are mythos.

There are several sites on the Internet which outline the religious atrocities you mention; both Christians and Muslims are cited. One major genecide that is rarely mentioned is that of the native populations of the Americias by Christians. If memory serves, North American native clans were given smallpox laced blankets, as gifts, by Christian settlers.

My readings of Joseph Needham would suggest the Chinese were quite knowledgeable in the areas of seismology and astronomy, before Marco Polo or the Jesuits. The Jesuits didn't want to drop the Ptolemic solar system and they thought the Chinese backgound for not believing in it. Why? Because space was the domain of the supernatural (mythos.

from
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=2720

On June 13th,..30000..“tweets”..begin to flood Twitter with live updates from Iran,..

Now,YouTube is providing a..“Breaking News”..link at the top of every page linking to the latest footage of the Iranian protests..

Welcome to Destabilization 2.0,..the latest version of a program that the western powers have..been running..for decades in order to overthrow foreign,..democratically elected governments..that don’t yield to the whims of western governments and multinational corporations.

Ironically,..Iran was also the birthplace of the original CIA program for destabilizing a foreign government.:..It’s 1953 and democratically-elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh..is following through on his election promises to nationalize industry for the Iranian people,..including the oil industry of Iran which was then controlled by the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

The CIA is sent into the country to bring an end to Mossadegh’s government...They begin a campaign of terror,staging bombings and attacks on Muslim targets in order to blame them on nationalist,secular Mossadegh.

They foster and fund an anti-Mossadegh campaign amongst the radical Islamist elements in the country...Finally,..they back the revolution that brings their favoured puppet,the Shah,into power...Within months,..their mission had been accomplished:..they had removed a democratically elected leader who threatened to build up an independent,..secular Persian nation and replaced him with a repressive tyrant whose secret police would brutally suppress all opposition.

The campaign was a success and the lead CIA agent wrote an after-action report describing...The pattern was to be repeated time and time again in country after country..(in Guatemala in 1954,in Afghanistan in the 1980s,..in Serbia in the 1990s),..but these operations leave the agency open to exposure.

What was..needed..was a different plan,..one where the western political/financial interests..puppeteering the revolution would be more difficult..to implicate in the overthrow.

Enter Destabilization..1.1...This version of the destabilization program is less messy,.offering plausible deniability..for the western powers/overthrowing a foreign government's...

It starts when the IMF moves in..to offer a bribe to a tinpot dictator in a third world country...to privatise

He gets 10%..in exchange for taking out an exorbitant loan..for an infrastructure project..that the country can’t afford...When the country inevitably defaults on the loan payments,..the IMF begins to take over..[continued at link]

Oliver,

I just wanted to make the point that Christianity (or Catholic Church) has not been anti-science etc. The Pope at the time of the instigation of the Spanish Inquisition did not support Isabel and Ferdinand’s practices. I do not wish to partake in frivolous dialogue of the very details of what or what not the Jesuits did – I just wished to make a point. You just seem to always highlight all the misdemeanours of Christianity and curiously without any criticism of Islam? You come across as another typical secular Islam apologist who has an agenda of de-valuing anything Christian. If you do not have a critical eye for Islam, you are colluding with Islamists in detering any reformation within Islam. I wish to speak of what some religions have influenced in the world we have today and the reality. Sufism seems to be the only religious part of Islam and they do not appear to have much influence in Islam's reality today.

Part of Pope Benedict’s response to the protest at La Sapienza Univeristy:-

"When a group of students and professors refused to hear the pope speak at their Roman university they were denying their own tradition.

"In a lecture intended for delivery at La Sapienza University in Rome earlier this month, Pope Benedict XVI undertook to address this issue and to show that faith cannot exist without reason and that reason itself cannot flourish without the faith. His whole argument is based on the concept of the Western university, whose emergence in the Middle Ages was not some sheer historical fluke, but an outgrowth of the intellectual requirements of the Christian faith itself -- a point which suggests why universities did not develop in Asia, Africa or the Middle-East."

Cont'd.. The pope first notes that "the true, intimate origin of the university lies in man's craving for knowledge". In this sense, "the Socratic questioning is the impulse that gave birth to the Western university". He then explains that it is precisely as a response to this kind of questioning that the Christians of the first centuries embraced the faith: "They accepted their faith as a way of dissolving the cloud that was mythological religion so as to discover the God that is creative Reason as well as Reason-as-Love."

"Moreover, while truth "pertains first and foremost to seeing and understanding theoria, as it is called in the Greek tradition", it is "not only theoretic." This is because "truth makes us good and goodness is true". The God that is "creative Reason" is also "Goodness itself". The knowledge that God gave us through his incarnation in Christ is thus both a theoretical and a practical knowledge. Revelation is not only about what we need to know, but also about what we need to do. “

Mythos versus Logos? And I'm pretty sure it was Karen Armstrong who Ayaan Hirsi Ali (terrific Somali woman who supports women and infidels) called "ridiculous".

‘The Catholic Church is the reminant of Constantine trying to keep the declining Roman Empire together. Likewise, Mohammed needed to unify the Arabs too, agsinst the encroachment of Christianity and the Persians.” By Oliver. Oh yeh, KKK – they’re everywhere representing Christians all over the world??

By the time the Crusades finally began, Muslim armies had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world. Europe had been harassed by Muslims since the first few years following Muhammad’s death, as early as 652. The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, etc etc. The Crusaders only invaded lands that were Christian. The period of Crusader “occupation” (of its own former land) was stretched over less than two centuries.

Dear Constance,

Thank you. I will need a litte time before I can reply appropriately. Busy.

In the meantime, regarding knowledge extrapolating Armstrong (and others), the position wasn't so much the Christian Church was ani-science, rather it determined what knowledge -which includes science- must be.

Regarding Christianity, in relation to Islam, Christianity would seem to be the more advanced at coming terms with Western modernity. Both would seem to maintain the exclusivity and parochialism noted by my Toynbee cite. Toynbee sees having an uncompromising god makes a religion successful.

My position is not be an apologist for Islam (or Christianity) rather to underline both religions and Judaism act true to their mandate as monetheist religions, only that Islam does have the concept of "The People of the Book". My quote from the Koran merely noted that there is some accommodation by Islam of, Judaism and Christianity. Whether this acceptance is always put into practice is another matter.

Constance,

1. “The Pope at the time of the instigation of the Spanish Inquisition did not support Isabel and Ferdinand’s practices.” – Constance.

Thank you. Can you please provide a valid citation?

My understanding is that Pope Alexander VI favoured Spanish modernity and further was happy to have the realms Catholic monarchs expand into the New World. Moreover, the forced conversion or exile of the Jews (especially) and Muslims ensured the cleansing of those not of the Catholic faith.

“When Granada fell the event was hailed by an eyewitness as 'the most distinguished and blessed day there has ever been in Spain'; though a Muslim commentator in Egypt saw it as 'one of the most terrible catastrophes to befall Islam'. Ferdinand's triumphant message to Rome, that 'after so much travail, expense, death and bloodshed this kingdom of Granada, which for 780 years was occupied by infidels, has been won to the glory of God, the exaltation of our Holy Catholic Faith, and the honour of the Apostolic See', was echoed by acclamation throughout Europe. A grateful Alexander VI in 1494 (a year when he needed Spain's help against the French) bestowed on the sovereigns the title of Los Reyes Catálicos.” (Catholic Kings)

Reference: Spain, 1469-1714: A Society of Conflict. Contributors: Henry Kamen (1991).

The conquest of Granada allowed the “Catholic Kings” [Of Spain and Portugal] to divert their attention to exploration, although Christopher Columbus's first voyage in 1492 was financed by foreign bankers. In 1493 Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia, a Catalan) formally approved the division of the unexplored world between Spain and Portugal. The Treaty of Tordesillas, which Spain and Portugal signed one year later, moved the line of division westward and allowed Portugal to claim Brazil.

Referenence: Spain - A Country Study. Eric Solsten and Sandra W. Meditz (1988)

There was a counter-modernisation movement in the mid-sixteenth century which led to the Catholic Catechism and the codification of dogma. Amplifying dogma countered monarchical centres of power outside of Rome.

2. One would hardly call the history of the Jesuits trivial.

3. Ethnic cleansing is more than a misdemeanour.