I am old enough as an Australian to still be stunned and shocked by an America that tortures. This was conduct only ascribed to dictators who sneered at the notion of human rights and the Geneva Convention. We were better than that. Sure we understood that rouge elements in the secret services might have taken occasional liberties, but never with the expressed collusion of the White House.

What saddens me the most is the thought that my children will grow up with a deeper cynicism of the world than I was afforded. America, the land of the free, welcoming of ‘huddled masses’, defenders of human rights, democracy and rule of law, all flagged by that amazing constitution. Combine that with a willingness and power to prosecute these ‘inalienable’ ideals and despite all its faults it was a country with many examples for teaching those values. One didn’t have to swallow all the hype to still want a deeper understanding of that nation for ones children.

But now America tortures.

Anyone who saw the recent documentary about the murder of American nun Sister Dorothy Stang by men paid by ranchers would have seen a Brazilian defence attorney who included in his address a litany of American excesses. The invasion of Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, rendition, Abu Grab, torture etc were all brought up to show how violence, murder and torture was in the “American DNA”.

What would have been laughable pre-Bush now cut close enough to the bone that it resonated, despite the absurdity of the argument that nun herself was a murderer.

If Obama really has any sense of wanting to return his country to its former standing in world opinion he must open the wound and excise the cancer that continues to metastasize, further eroding the ability of America to advocate for human rights in other countries.

A definitive move by him now, in the honeymoon period of his presidency, against those who authorised these human rights abuses is desperately needed, not only by his countrymen and the world’s citizenry, but also by parents everywhere.

Obama must throw some people in jail over this. Only time and the death we people who watched America do this will completely remove the stain this has cast on America's moral authority. I personally will never forget.

Jailing some might go some way to atoning for those sins, but that is not why it must be done. Obama must make it clear that no matter how much moral fashions change, outrages committed at the hight of a bubble when they might seem acceptable will be punished when the bubble bursts. People must realise the insanity of the moment doesn't excuse their personal involvement, any more than driving drunk excuses the man slaughter charge. Without the clear threat of near certain sanctions, the crimes will be so much worse when Americans next vote in a man of such "moral clarity", as I think the far religious right called him at the time.

<“I am old enough as an Australian to still be stunned and shocked by an America that tortures.”>

If you look at history, you may find the USA has always been at the forefront of torture and ignoring the Geneva convention. You only need to go back to Vietnam and WW2 to see a lot of evidence of barbarity and torture, they continue it with their saturation bombing and kill first approach to anything in their way. After all, they are a gun totting religious inspired culture, when you combine god and weapons, you only have one result, torturous debauchery.

Obama is no different to any of them, they all follow the same philosophy and Obama is using some of the same people and ideologists as bush, so we will see just the same outcome. All those they've jailed so far, have all been from the bottom of the heap, the real criminals continue leading from afar. Don't jail the soldiers, jail their officers, bureaucrats and politicians who order and condone these atrocities

What a load of cobblers.
What the US has been accused of hardly constitutes torture.
"Torture" is now being used as a catch-all word to describe any technique which deviates from the normal civilian criminal prosecution process.
This is war!
How can a country prosecute a war when it can't even interrogate captured enemies to extract information necessary to prevent more casualties.
Obama was keen to release "torture" details to use against the previous administration but he has been less than keen to release the accompanying details on how those actions helped avert further terrorist acts.
His revelations have been condemned by 6 former CIA directors and have made it increasingly difficult to effectively prosecute the war against terrorism.
Oh, that's right, I forgot.
It's not a war against terrorism, it's Janet Napolitano's war against "man-made disasters" (her new euphemism!).
The real terrorists are not those in Guantanamo Bay, etc.
They're all those right wingers that oppose Democrat "policy" as outlined in the DHS report issued by Janet Napolitano.
You know, the real threat: war veterans, pro-lifers, anti-SSM advocates, etc.
Don't you know that the Department of Homeland Security has banned the use of the word terrorists when describing Islamists but uses the word freely when warning against right wing extremists?
http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf
It would be laughable if it weren't so unutterably stupid.
Obama, Napolitano, et al are now running the show and we should all be very worried.
You people should read more because it's people like you who voted for these incompetents.

And a load of cobblers back to you KGB-with bells on.

The USA. HAS used torture, and does. Personally, I don't believe any country has clean hands on this issue, but this so-called superpower; this democracy; this paragon of virtue, wrote the book on hypocrisy and double standards.

In your pursuance of your Right Wing ideology, you ignore what is right in front of your face.

And no,-I don't see Obama as a wonderful faultless leader- but by comparison-yes! Bush and his regime were hideous.

You know you're a progressive, left-leaning liberal when you're outraged that Americans can pour water over the face of a terrorist to try and stop more terrorist attacks but you have no problems at all with a mother choosing to have her 34 week old foetus dismembered and extracted from her body because she really wants that BMW.

<”Obama, Napolitano, et al are now running the show and we should all be very worried.
You people should read more because it's people like you who voted for these incompetents.”>

Actually, I think you'll find it's your ilk who vote for these people. I would never vote for someone controlled by any ideology, the historical evidence show it's a recipe for disaster.

<”You know you're a progressive, left-leaning liberal when you're outraged that Americans can pour water over the face of a terrorist to try and stop more terrorist attacks but you have no problems at all with a mother choosing to have her 34 week old foetus dismembered and extracted from her body because she really wants that BMW.”>

The above statement alone, is evidence enough to show your lack of grasp on reality and how dismembered your mind is. Provide verifiable evidence where a women has chosen to dismember and extract, an 8 ½ month developed child from her body, because she wants a BMW. Could this be a rabid emotional display of contempt for truth, or an example of your true mental state, lack of credibility for your argument, so the need for incomprehensible babble.

"You know you're a progressive, left-leaning liberal when you're outraged that Americans can pour water over the face of a terrorist to try and stop more terrorist attacks but you have no problems at all with a mother choosing to have her 34 week old foetus dismembered and extracted from her body because she really wants that BMW.
Posted by KMB, Sunday, 10 May 2009 2:57:57 PM"

Oh my! you do get in a pickle don't you?

Personally? I'm anti abortion.I believe it is necessary ONLY in the most extenuating circumstances, and I have no intention in getting locked in an argument with anyone about that view.

What I find nauseaus is your scant grasp of what exactly constitutes a terrorist. The Bush Regime was made up of terrorists.

THEN you put up your example of double standards. That shows your mindset far more than to those to whom you refer.

(I would however like you to provide the evidence of a woman aborting an 8 month 2 week BABY, so that she could buy a BMW. Links please,-and I hope they show the medical personnel who did the operation. If you can provide it, I will be as shocked and disgusted as you).

STATEMENT BY ISRAELI REPRESENTATIVE AT 18TH SESSION OF UNITED NATIONS COMMITTEE AGAINST TORTURE, GENEVA, SWITZERLAND 7 MAY 1997

“This prohibition on torture is absolute. As a result, and despite the current predicament of the State and the pressing need to fight terrorism, investigators are never, and never have been, authorized to use torture, even if its use might possibly prevent some terrible attacks and save human lives"

“Provide verifiable evidence where a women has chosen to dismember and extract, an 8 ½ month developed child from her body, because she wants a BMW.”
It isn’t possible and it isn’t necessary to provide such evidence.
The law provides that a woman can abort at any stage for any reason and the law provides that nobody is accountable, whatever the reason.
And that’s the point.
There is no longer any legal mechanism to ensure that the above situation does not occur.
It’s open season.
The reality then, is that if you support a woman’s absolute right to choose then you would support her in her decision for whatever her private reasons are.
Remember, what a woman does with “her own body” is nobody else’s business but her own.
So are you going to say now that she has no right to abort her child, at whatever stage of gestation, for whatever reason she decides? Even if it is so that she can buy a BMW?
Are you suggesting that a woman must provide a justifiable reason for her abortion?
Justifiable to whom?
If so, then you are anti-choice. Welcome to the club!
Having said that, there is anecdotal evidence, and it can only ever be anecdotal because the law does not provide for anything else, that women are aborting late term so that they can collect the baby bonus.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08102303.html
Admittedly, the baby bonus wouldn’t pay for a BMW.

<”Having said that, there is anecdotal evidence, and it can only ever be anecdotal because the law does not provide for anything else, that women are aborting late term so that they can collect the baby bonus.”>

KMB, your link is a religious anti abortion site, not one bit of truth in you or it, just drama filled hearsay and theatrics. You lack comprehensible logic, so need to provide evidence of a doctor who has performed these late abortions so the woman can get some money. It would cost much more than the baby bonus to get a doctor, facilities and staff to perform a late term abortion to a fully developed healthy fetus.

Mind you, I don't doubt there'd be women who'd do that, but they'd have to be badly psychologically disturbed. It's clear you have no understanding of the bond between a women and the unborn child they have carried for almost 9 months and are quite happy to throw dispersions on women and the medical profession to advance your agenda. All you're trying to do is steer the discussion away from the real perpetrators and supporters by association of torture and worldwide terror, I think the reason is obvious to everyone.

stormbay,
<<KMB, your link is a religious anti abortion site>>
Here's a non religious link:
http://news.theage.com.au/national/loophole-allows-baby-bonus-for-abortions-20081023-57bf.html
But of course you'll discredit this one too.
<<It's clear you have no understanding of the bond between a women (sic) and the unborn child they have carried for almost 9 months>> almost 8 months...7 months..6 months...5 months...4 months...tell me when to stop.
So it's the strength of a mother's bond that stops her from binning her child is it?
At what stage does this bond kick in?
You're making this up as you go along.
Personally, I'd vote for the terrorist getting water poured over his face and the baby getting a life, but I guess I'm just perverse.

yep, you guessed correctly.