Thanks Oliver. You bring a great deal more erudition to the issues than I, so it must be that much more frustrating for you, to meet such unwillingness to listen. I'm just a simple non-historian, non-believer, so my scepticism is of a far lower quality.

I do however know running-for-cover when I see it.

>>Would you make up a story, knowing that you’d probably suffer persecution and even death over proclaiming that story, and then persevere with telling that story even when you WERE persecuted and your friends started getting killed?<<

Me, personally? Absolutely not.

However, there are many well-documented examples of thoroughly irrational behaviour, leading to a fatal, or potentially fatal confrontation with authority.

I guess you may have heard of Jonestown. Or Shoko Asahara and his Aum Shinri Kyo. Or Marshall Herff Applewhite and his Heaven's Gate. Or David Koresh and Branch Davidians. Or David Berg and TFI.

You and I agree on this...

>>Those are moot issues as far as history is concerned.<<

...although from the context, you believe "moot" means "taken for granted".

>>But I guess at the end of the day, you're right, in the strictest sense, we can't know.<<

Once again, we are in total agreement. We can't know. We can only take a guess where there is no solid evidence.

I didn't say "any evidence". The fact that there is enough for you to make that leap of faith is patently obvious. But you cannot persuade me that it is evidence in the normally accepted use of the word.

>>History can only go on probabilities. The problem is, your "wanting make up a story" line is incredibly improbable<<

And turning water into wine is "probable"?

Another error of mine (above):

Sells & Co., do NOT apply a healthy skepticism is religious beliefs. My leaving "not" out on more than one occasion is a bad habit.

Pericles and Bugsy,

Thanks for the feedback.

Oliver

lol..no solid evidence

even way back when the origonal letter delivering the laws were being written swine was flagged as un-kosha...how kosha this swine flue hybred?

had all the pigs been elimiated there could be no swine flue
but pigs have rights[just like them perverts who made the hybred, now have recombination,..gmo rights.. to join the two human flues and bird flue and swine flue

the new testiment flagged the epidemic
re the rider's of the ape-pox-o-lips

but i suppose thats all just acodemoc..lol

yeah ok i take it as a script too, a script weak minded leaders are fullfilling to bring on the messiah[who came long ago]

who said love brother [love god]
who came to reveal there is no end time jud-meant day
that WHEN [regardless of the cause]..we die..

and ALL even a thief are reborn instantly,..when we die we all get reborn..[even a thief,..or a god replacement]..jesus died,..some say for our sins, but its indesputable he died to the flesh

the messiah can[at the prphesised time, was offered this realm and refused[he aint comming back here

he has prepared a place in our fathers house[where each gets as we gave]
more shall be given..[those loving the christ share the christs room[mahanoudians share the mahamoud room,athiest have their room,sheep goats wheat and even chaff each have their own realms

you can debate all you chose,the facts are there,wether you regard their proofs true or not..feel free to believe as you chose

i have tested the science proof of evolution and you couldnt defend the lie, what beliefs you hold are your beliefs,

what truths we hold are our truths,you want proof..,yet mearly seek to rebut others faiths/beliefs..proving just what?

I think I have figured out the entire 'resurrection' thing.

Jesus was a space alien from the planet Arachnidia. Creatures from this planet have the power to resurrect themselves.

Spider-man, Spider-man, he can do anything a spider can.

Please read my link to "The Resurrection of the Spiders".

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/04/090424-spider-resurrection-coma-drowning.html?source=email_wn_20090501&email=wn

Where would we be without science?

under one god

Im confused. Is this some sort of parody?
What little sense I can make of your post leads me to believe you are just 'taking the micky' out of the Christians.

Surprise, surprise I make one visit to OLO and Sellick is flogging the same dead horse.

[Via Apologetics 315]
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm

Objection 5:

But a literalistic interpretation of the resurrection ignores the profound dimensions of meaning found in the symbolic, spiritual and mythic realms that have been deeply explored by other religions. Why are Christians so narrow and exclusive? Why can't they see the profound symbolism in the idea of resurrection?
Reply: They can. It's not either-or. Christianity does not invalidate the myths, it validates them, by incarnating them. It is "myth become fact," to use the title of a germane essay by C.S. Lewis (in God in the Dock). Why prefer a one-layer cake to a two-layer cake? Why refuse either the literal-historical or the mythic-symbolic aspects of the resurrection? The Fundamentalist refuses the mythic-symbolic aspects because he has seen what the Modernist has done with it: used it to exclude the literal-historical aspects. Why have the Modernists done that? What terrible fate awaits them if they follow the multifarious and weighty evidence and argument that naturally emerges from the data, as we have summarized it here in this chapter?

The answer is not obscure: traditional Christianity awaits them, complete with adoration of Christ as God, obedience to Christ as Lord, dependence on Christ as Savior, humble confession of sin and a serious effort to live Christ's life of self-sacrifice, detachment from the world, righteousness, holiness and purity of thought, word and deed. The historical evidence is massive enough to convince the open-minded inquirer. By analogy with any other historical event, the resurrection has eminently credible evidence behind it. To disbelieve it, you must deliberately make an exception to the rules you use everywhere else in history. Now why would someone want to do that?

Ask yourself that question if you dare, and take an honest look into your heart before you answer.