Good Evening Folks,

It does no good to cast slurs on people for
merely expressing an opinion. After all this
is supposed to be a Forum of social and political
debate and a wide variety of opinions is to be
expected. Personally, I'm a great fan of the
author's. He does his homework, and in my humble
opinion, knows what he's talking about.

As for the 'war crimes' issue... as I've stated
previously in other posts, the matter should be
left up to an independent international committee
to investigate the matter and decide whether in
fact war crimes were committed and by whom - both
Israel and Hamas should come under the committee's
scrutiny. Senior UN officials and Human Rights
Groups are calling for an investigation.
It should proceed.

When all the facts are in, a judgement will be made.
The only innocents in a war are the victims - of
both sides.

AJFA,

Israel is a state: a corporate body with neither soul nor sense - no more human than a carrot, in my opinion.

If you confuse a state with the people who are elected to its government, or otherwise hold power to run it, that is your mistake, not mine.

If the people who currently are called upon to govern, who make up the overwhelming majority of Israel's so-called democratic legisature, are of one particular religious faith, then I call that a remarkable coincidence for a democratic government. Similar circumstances prevail in other nations. Some democracies have assured particular races and religions a voice in their legislatures, but Israel is the only state I know of which is touted as a democracy and whose written policies also advocate majority control by one religious group.

I could be mistaken about this policy position. I would be glad to be corrected, with cited and accessible evidence to the contrary concerning Israel. All I have ascertained at this stage is the Israel does not have a constitution, per se, but rather a set of "Basic Laws", comprising a constitution in the making.

Israel and other nation-states are corporate entities, but followers of any religious faith are individual people. I can look an individual in the eye and tell him or her my opinion of their action(s). States have no eyes and no conscience. States are neither alive nor dead; they are outside these two categories.

With the Israeli election today, I expect that Israel will become more isolated as a nation, until its elected members can face the fact that Palestinians deserve to be treated as individuals with human rights; rights which are preferebly enshrined in enforceable laws.

After migrating to Australia in the '70's, I lost contact with the Jews I grew up with, some of whom were close friends. I often wonder what they would think of Israel's actions. I am hard put to believe they would advocate current Israeli policies and actions toward Palestinians. I believe they would be supporting Jewish organisations like B'Tselem.

"I call that a remarkable coincidence" ... "I would be glad to be corrected"

What coincides here, is that "Jewish" is both a name of a nation and a name of a religion.

Hitler did not care about religion, only about race, so he executed Christians and atheists of a Jewish origin just the same. The state of Israel was formed in order to protect Jewish nationals from the likes of Hitler. It coincides that most of them have links with the Jewish religion and follow it to varying degrees: some very strictly, some not at all, and everything in between and around.

The Israeli nation, or tribe if you will, welcomes people of other religions so long as they are willing to be loyal to the tribe. Coincidentally it is assumed, on practical grounds, that those of the Jewish religion are extremely likely to be loyal, so they are accepted automatically while others are questioned.

It is a pity that Palestinians - many of whom are former tribe-members, of Jewish origins (that stayed on their land and converted to Islam due to economic pressures) have shown themselves to be least likely loyal to the Jewish tribe and state (by "loyal" I refer to minimum standards, such as not placing bombs in buses and schools) - otherwise they could have long ago been included in the thriving Israeli nation (even while maintaing their Muslim religion or none, that's not the point).

As for the election-results, although bad, they look slightly better than expected by early poles, but there is a clear pattern: in towns and cities in the south of Israel that were exposed to Hamas missiles, and the closer they are to Gaza, the right-wing got more votes. This is the effect of trauma, and Hamas are very happy with the results: the last thing those hooligans want to see is an agreement with Israel that gives Palestinians their own state and takes Palestinians out of their misery - that would leave them with no roll.

"If the people who currently are called upon to govern, who make up the overwhelming majority of Israel's so-called democratic legisature, are of one particular religious faith, then I call that a remarkable coincidence for a democratic government. Similar circumstances prevail in other nations. Some democracies have assured particular races and religions a voice in their legislatures, but Israel is the only state I know of which is touted as a democracy and whose written policies also advocate majority control by one religious group."

This is yet another slur on the state of Israel. Israel's elections are free and democratic. There are Arab and Muslim members of Parliament as well as Jews. The only reason most parliamentarians are Jews is that most of the population is Jewish.

"Israel and other nation-states are corporate entities, but followers of any religious faith are individual people. I can look an individual in the eye and tell him or her my opinion of their action(s). States have no eyes and no conscience. States are neither alive nor dead; they are outside these two categories."

Nation states are not corporate identities. They are instead an outcome and expression of political power. In a democratic nation such as Israel, most policies are more or less aligned with majority opinion.

I don't understand how you can seperate the people and a democratic nation state. With China you can do this because it is not a democracy, so the Chinese people don't have the power to vote for or against government policies. But the fact is a majority of Israelis understandably have full support for Israel's right to defend herself against terrorists. Every nation and its citizens have a right to be protected from terrorists. Israelis are no different.

Israel is therefore entitled to take whatever measures will promote her safety, and that includes waging wars against terrorist organisations dedicated to her destruction.

Dear AJFA,

Can you answer two questions please?

1) According to the Israeli daily, 'Ha'aretz,'
Israel's all-out assault on Gaza had been
planned six months earlier.

How come?

And -

2) Why does Israel not agree to a two-state solution,
obey international law and end their illegal occupation
beyond the 1967 borders

I intend no "slur on the state of Israel".

AJFA, you reply that "Nation states are not corporate identities". The word I used is entities, not identities. In any case, you have entirely missed my point.

However formally or informally a group is organised, it has no life except in a metaphoric sense. That's no problem for me. I am happy to vote in the next Australian election, or at a duly constituted meeting of a corporate body or other group whose process I am entitled to seek to influence by such means. I do try to keep my perspective, and recognise the limitations of my vote and other involvement in decision-making and conflict resolution. I am hoping, now I have explained myself, you are assured that I meant no disrespect.

My concern is that current Israeli policy results in criminal acts against Palestinians. The recent invasion of Gaza provides robust evidence of indiscriminate and disproportionate force used against the Gazans.

While Israel, like any other state, is justified in defending itself against attack, the sensible way to do so is by employing diplomacy to avoid war, rather than using wars to win elections, as seems to be the case with the current Knesset leaders.

It seems to me like the unfolding Knesset election will result in further international isolation of Israel, as a nation. I am hoping that the new Israeli government reevaluates the dubious wisdom of defending itself from attack by escalated military response, rather than by diplomacy.

But the newly elected MK's seem on the average, more militant. The recognised leaders are negotiating with the extremist Avigdor Lieberman, whose view is paraphrased by Neve Gordon as

"Whoever is not loyal to the state, according to what Lieberman and his friends believe is loyal, their citizenship can be stripped."

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=30358
Israeli election results analysed

AJFA, Do you agree with Mr Lieberman?