Let's hope that this obscure,poisonous Balkan "ethnic" conflict doesn't spread to Australia, as others have in the past.

Before Alexander the Great, the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian people as barbarians--everybody loves a winnner!

I was beginning to think that maybe there was some history here that I was not aware of. . . . then I got to the end of the article. What a dissapointment, just another piece of trash that I must now discard completely.

This is based on MY KNOWLEDGE (AND I STRESS KNOWLEDGE), that there are thousands of Macedonian refugees that were forced out of Greece, and unable to claim their family property. This article dismisses this part of history, and now I must assume the rest is also TRASH. Like I say, ... a disappointment.

perhaps one way to stop people thinking it's just the name is to stop whining about the name.

Young Aristide,

Your assertions about WWII history are wrong.... You imply that Macedonians colloborated with the Nazis...

My grandfather sepnt two years in a German labour camp as a forced labourer before joining the Macedonian resistence. I find your comments deeply offensive.

You seem to forget that the Macedonian Partizans, independent of Tito's Yugoslav Partizans, existed and in 1944 under communist pressure where forcibly merged with Tito's movement.

The figures given are 85,000 Macedonian partizans. You also fail to mention the large number of ethnic Macedonians who fought in the Democratic Army of Greece (DAG) as conscripts. Many later joined the Greek communist resistance not out of ideology but a promise of national rights, which Greece still denies.

In today's Macedonia any mention of changing of borders or grandiose empires is seen as a relic of the past.

see my article:

http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/uzunov/uzunov_srem.html

regards
Sasha Uzunov
journalist / ex Australian soldier

The 2 correspondents to this article are pretty poor.

'Mac' decides to turn this into an "UNAUSTRALIAN" argument but then can't help but expose himself as a Slav-Macedonian with his Anti-Greek comments regarding Alexander the Great.

And the second writer has the temerity to trash the article when the previous article on this site by a member of the Slav-Macedonians of Australia wrote an article that implied that the Ancient Macedonians spoke Slavic!

In the end, the editors of ONO have again proven to be poor in managing the type of articles that appear here.

The Macedonian issue is not a matter of having 2 sides of the story written (and old Neo-Right trick to criticise the so-called leftist bias in the media). They should have sought some unbiased and academic sources to write their articles.

Savvas Tzionis,

Wrong,mate, I'm not any sort of hyphenated Australian and I have no Balkan DNA as far as I know. I'm sure In the long history of the area there are atrocities and injustices all round and OZ is a free country with free speech, however, my earlier comments stand. In other words, "no violence please, we're Australians".
My comments in regard to Macedonians and the classical Greek attitude towards them, are neither pro- nor anti- Greek but drawn from history.

Aaaah... watch and learn.

Welcome to 'MultiCulturalism'....Greek/Macedonian style.

So... the issue is 'history around 400-500 years bc ?' and.. also 'more recent events'

*big wry smile*

Hmmmmm... "Jews/Arabs and Palestine/Israel" gee...

Here's a thought.. all of you.. Macedonians and Greeks.. nick off back to where you came from or.. become "AUSTRALIANS".

Boaz_David
Become "AUSTRALIANS" Like you? being bigoted against Muslims whose existence dates back 1400 years is better how?
“People in glass houses…” ring any bells?
“Splinter in your neighbour’s eye first remove the mote in yours ” perhaps?
Perhaps you should have your overactive (toxic) bile glands attended to.
Again in your haste to sew hatred you missed the point

Exammy.... I don't parade my English/Scottish background around like these Macedonian and Greek dills are.. I don't scream and yell about the evil English and the dispossesion of ancestral land...but I COULD...

The thing is..I'm "Australian" not English..nor Scottish.

People can choose to embrace or tolerate Islam...or not. Some choose to expose it's vile nature and core.. you can call that bigotry if you like. I'll wear that as a badge of pride! Oh.. you did hear the latest "Cleric"'s pronouncements right? straight from the Quran... "beat your wife.. take her for sex when you want it.. and you (Aussies) are drunken scum addicted to prostitutes".

I've been to that Mosque... (upper story above shops) they have a punching bag in the middle.

Failure by our PM and some others to see that what Hamza said is exactly as the Quran says, is nothing other than a declaration of ignorance and the sallow tepid welcoming of Yasser Solomons blatant 'spin and propoganda' is almost beyond belief..except that I realize your knowledge of Islams doctrines/teachings/beliefs/principles is at about the level of pre-school....so ur forgiven.

PS.. nothing official about me banned..so..when time allows I'll say my piece.

A very good article.
Well written, documented, and clear of Skopjan/FYROMIAN fog.

Whoever disagrees with it should read it again and let it sink in, point after point.

It's the shiny truth.

Of course, I do not expect all to understand it.
Some have been brainwashed with lies for to long to accept the simple historical truth, and the complexity of the matter...

We are talking about membership of NATO here aren't we?

The same NATO that includes Germany, the country that went to war twice in the first half of the twentieth century, including in 1914-1918 being an ally of Turkey, that arch enemy of Greece? And in 1939-1945 invading and occupying Greece?

So it is okay for Greece to accept Germany as an ally in NATO, and Italy as well, another country that invaded Greece in WW2?

And NATO and Turkey are both part of NATO, in spite of continuing frictions that have lead to the only example of NATO member states coming to blows.

But Macedonia, of course it cannot join NATO. Even is the 'crimes' against Greece were as bad as those stated in the article it is clear that these have nothing to do with Greece vetoing Macedonia.

It is all about the name, otherwise Greece would never have joined a NATO containing Germany, Italy and Turkey.

To those in Greece who don't like Macedonia: Build a bridge and get over it!

BORRIS... it's not about the article ... it's about the whole background which the article refers to..and how IRRELEVANT that is to Australia.

The article might contain some truth..but that truth has NOTHING to do with Australia. It has to do with petty ethnic squabbles on a level of the Bosnians and Serbs throwing chairs at each other A-GAIN at the Tennis.

We couldn't give a tuppeny damn about Greek Macedonian historical squabbles... they are just racist ..yes.. RACIST..and each one thinks their 'race' is better or more entitled to this or that than the other.

So.. to all Greek and Macedonian 'racists'.....get out.. go back.. shoo.. leave.. don't be here.. we don't want or need your petty ethnic squabbles.

What possible goal could their be for posting articles on an AUSTRALIAN forum supporting one or the other side of something which has zero impact on us? It's just racism in action... bigotry.... race hate... cultural arrogance.. race pride...

Leave it at customs if you come to this place boys... or don't come.
And on the off chance you were 'born' here.. don't teach those squabbles to your children and create ethnic ghettos among yourselves.

BOAZ_David,

I think the most disturbing aspect of these imported rivalries is when they are carried on by people born in Australia who seem to identify with their parents' or even grandparents' homelands and tribalism. Let's hope that they're a very small percentage of the population.

The AMAC, (Australian Macedonian Advisory Council) is NOT I repeat NOT....... a Macedonian organization. They are simply a fringe puppet organization for the racist "Greek Lobby in Australia"!
They are falsely claiming to be Macedonian when in fact they are ultra nationalist fundamentalist Greek Group that wants nothing more than to destroy the true Macedonians, their History language, culture and Identity. This group is nothing more than an enemy of the Macedonian people in Australia and in the Republic of Macedonia. They pathetically advocate the denial of a countries right to choose its own name and identity. Keeping in mind that under the UN Charter any nation is guaranteed has the right to "self determination and identity".

On the proud and historic Australia Day I say to all Australians, disregard this group, they are un Australian and do not believe in the principles of” a fair go” or share any Australian values or ideals. Their are arguments are flawed and non sense rhetoric. They are an undemocratic right wing movement that has absolutely no links to real Macedonians living in Australia or around the world including The "Republic of Macedonia". In a nutshell there article is a load of crap that isn’t worth the paper it’s written on

Boaz and mac,
Well said, if people want to come and live here they should leave their old world hatreds behind, if not don't come here. We have better things to do than listen to or deploy our police to breakup your stupid fights.

First thing we need to do is stop importing those groups that bring their old hatreds with them and others that have shown they cannot or will not integrate with others in the community. we should not tolerate alien cultural practices.

We should draw up a list of those that need not bother applying for permanent residency. My list would start with Croats and Serbs, lebanese Muslims, those that practice FGM, those that have forced marriages, those that contiue to hold cockfights or dog fights. There may be more but that will do for starters.

I agree, let's ban all of the petty ethnic and cultural identities of all that come here: Christmas, Valentine's day, Easter, St. Patrick's day, fish and chips, ethnic restaurants....

Ah life is so simple isn't it?

Renegade Science,
Yes Cob, it is simple. We do not have to accept people that thumb their nose at our laws and community standards. If you go to another country you accept their laws and standards.

We are under no obligation to accept all and everybody.

So we blacklist those groups who have shown they are disruptive to community cohesion and will not or cannot accept our laws and standards. Yep very simple really! No more get entry.

It is our country and Australian citizens make the rules. The only thing wrong is we elect politicians without backbone.

Dear Banjo:

It is sad you assumed I want or expect people to thumb their noses at "our laws", and even sadder that your response to me includes "Cob"; but such are forums like this, to assume the worst in others and respond as such.

Everyone brings with them their identity and past, whether we like it or now, even Australians who move elsewhere. A cultural identity is not like a piece of clothing to be thrown off. Of course violence is unacceptable, but it should be just as unacceptable in their countries as in ours, not just in ours, that is the problem.

Feel free to toss out more dismissive terms to people like me, or assume the worst, or assume the opposite position in me. I will not do likewise.

Fortunately I can and will find better ways to deal with differences.

John

Before reading this article I thought the issues was a silly thing about a name, now I know it's a silly thing about a name.

Renegade Science,


"Fortunately I can and will find better ways to deal with differences".... and these are? Now Mr Ghandi, come down from the moral high ground and enlighten us.

"...violence is unacceptable, but it should be just as unacceptable in their countries as in ours" Should? That's the point, it's often endemic in "their" countries and part of the normal political process.

I note that Renegade Science espouses his high moral ground from ground stolen from Indigenous Aussies :) good call RS. (assuming you live in Australia)

MAC... indeed..I quite agree.. but I'm pessemistic when Dimitri tells us we have an:

"ultra nationalist fundamentalist Greek Group"

Good GRIEF.. isn't it enough that a group of Muslims wants to blow up the MCG during granfinal.. now we have Greek 'ultra nationalist/fundamentalists' ?

Dimitri..the best thing mate is to FORGET all that historical rubbish and simply learn to say with Dorothea McKellar..

I love a sunburnt country,
A land of sweeping plains,
Of ragged mountain ranges,
Of droughts and flooding rains.

If migrants cannot love this land, warts and all MORE than their 'old' country..they are not WORTHY of this country.. and I uncordially inviate ALL such fundy Greeks..Serbs..Macedonians...Croats,Bosnians..Chinese.. Cambodians.. any.. who hold this petty historical squabbles high in Australia.. to leave.. get out.. go back to your own places..THIS is NOT yours.

I see that the discussion has veered away from the point of the article - but it is an interesting discussion nonetheless.

A current running through the responses is the idea that past hatreds and animosities should be left behind, and I think this is a valid argument. My family came to Australia from Zimbabwe when I was a little kid. The Zimbabwe we left behind had its share of problems - ethnic struggles amongst the native population and an all-round hatred of white people like myself. Certainly we had reason to hav chips on our shoulders. Indeed, we could have been angry at the whole world for fifteen years of economic sanctions which helped to plunge our country into the third world.

The point is, we didn't. We became Australians. We recognised that we left our country for a reason, and needed to set our sights on the future. When we come across "Mugabe's mob" - the Mashona - or other black Zimbabweans, we don't hate them. After all, they're here for a reason as well. When we come across people who hated the evil regime (Ian Smith's, not Mugabe's) and actively supported sanctions, we don't hate them. They're Australian and so are we. We just took a bit longer to get here.

Yes, past animosities are hard to get over, but if immigrants don't get over them, they find themselves in the situation the had hoped to leave behind. In that situation and a long way from home.

The past is always with us. It's the sum total of everything we are today. To deny it is to deny ourselves.

This is of particular importance to immigrant cultures like Australia. I have little knowledge of the Macedonian/Greek situation, but I am glad to have the opportunity to read the author's point of view.

With NATO's pledge to militarily respond to the invasion of any of its member states, the internal politics and past 'squabbles' of the countries in the NATO apex are now of vital concern for future world peace. As Australia's foreign policy automatically locks us into Anglo-US conflicts, regardless of their morality, these 'squabbles' DO have relevance for Australians.

This whole thread has been hi-jacked by the likes of David Boaz and the like.

I suspect that the owner's of this site knew that would happen.

A serious issue on so many levels (Academic, Historic, Psychological, etc) has been rendered meaningless by deflections and histrionics.

Pretty pathetic.

Then again, what do you expect when the articles provided on this site are by the major extremists in the debate.

Savvis Tzionis,
This thread is not exactly humming with activity. Maybe those interested in Macadonia/Greece have nothing left to say or maybe many posters are simply not very interested. It is up to you and other posters to keep discussion going. And in the direction you want.

Renegade Science
You try to belittle me by making light of my suggestion and now you imply that you are offended by me referring to you as Cob. If you do not know, Cob is short for Cobber, which is a Aussie word meaning friend.

I do not assume that you want or expect people to thumb their nose at our laws and standards, but it seems to me that you are willing to accept that some do.

There are many cultural matters in other countries that are acceptable there but not here and vice versa. I would be utterly stupid to expect to drink alcahol in Saudi Arabia, for example.

The point is that there are some that come here knowing what our society is like and flaunt our laws and social standards.

I am not prepared to put up with that contempt and don't wish my decendants to do so either, that is why I think we should blacklist those groups that have shown contempt for us.e.g. If the Croats and Serbs cannot attend a tennis or soccer match without rioting over centuries old hatreds, then I don't want anymore to come here.

You said you can and will find better ways of dealing with this. If you can do this it would be a great thing for everybody. I am sure many would like to know how. Care to share that knowledge?

Dear Banjo:

I accept that bad habits happen, not that they are good to happen, or are acceptable to happen.

Recognizing that people bring with them bad habits, old hatreds, and (by their definition) traumas, does not mean I condone them or their actions. That attitude is part of the problem with many of the commentators: If I/we do not regurgitate your comments then I/we must disagree with their sentiments. I disagree with the attitude that human dynamics are easy to cure if people would just "change now damn it." That is my issue, that simple quips do little to deal with the problems, I don't agree or accept them, but do accept that they will happen and some type of mechanism, political or otherwise needs to be covered.

It is a shame that if commentators do not repeat a particular person's words, then they are assumed to be polar opposite of that person. I would wonder how many "on side" people quickly get alienated at OLO by some of its commentators. That is a loss to all.

John

Renegade Science,
Going on your last sentence, maybe I should have felt alienated by your first post and got my bat and ball and went home. Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

I won't condone abhorrent cultural practices and I certainly agree that human dynamics, by way of cultural practices, are difficult to change. Most of the Lebanese youths, who cause the problems at Cronulla, and those Croats and Serbs that fight at sport events, are born here which means the culture is handed down from generation to generation.

That is why, if we desire a cohesive community, we should stop importing more of those groups that have shown they cannot or will not integrate and hold us in contempt.

The obligation of politicians should be to look after the interests of current and future Australians. There is no obligation to accept those that refuse to integrate.