Well here we go again another Propaganda article from the Israeli Propaganda Dept,Runner,and the other right wing nongs will love this,fancy quoting Pipes and Bolton two of the failed Bush administration,that's clutching at straws.
Abbas and the PA,what a joke they will only last as long as the next election then there will be a HAMAS Govt in GAZA and the West Bank,given the collaboration and gangsterism and sheer do nothing by the PA re the Settlers(Land and water Thieves,Murderers) on the West Bank.
Typical ethnic cleansing stuff from one of the advocates of greater Israel

"there will be a HAMAS Govt in GAZA and the West Bank"

Possible, but did I notice a smirk on your face, John?

Power to Hamas means power to the settlers, and vice-versa.
They both share the same purpose of keeping the war going on.
They both do so because they need the war to impose their religious dogmas on their people.
Peace and prosperity are their worst enemies - it will phase them out.

They will never admit it publically, but Hamas and the settlers are the best friends.

In a recent interview on Israel radio, a doctor who supports the settlers warned: "we must never talk with the PA, it is immoral as it will end up in a Palestinian state, losing parts of the promised land... but yes, we must talk with Hamas. What about? it doesn't matter, of course not about a Palestinian state... but we can talk about economics for example, or about restricting certain weapons, or about technology and water-resources... after all, nothing is going to happen anwyay".

I have to give it to the Jewish lobby; while on the one hand they claim Hamas is a terrorist organisation because it wants to 'wipe Israel off the map', they then propose a solution that effectively wipes Palestine off the map.
We can see where this is leading: if there is no Palestine there can be no Palestinians, and with no Palestinians there could not have been hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians killed in the past weeks and thousands over the past years. The years of persecution, deprivation and slaughter just disappear.

The previous poster summed up the moral integrity of the Jewish nation nicely when s/he said:

'I rather have a million Palestinians killed than one of my family lose a finger'

Three thousand years of history and two thousand years without a homeland, yet after all this time this is all they have to offer. What a disaster.

Dane,

Please allow me to make it very clear:

I do not represent the Jewish lobby and they do not represent me.
My concern is about my own family, who happen to live in Israel, not about Jews or Israelis in general.
Unfortunately, however, the lives of my family depend on the well-being of the state of Israel as a whole.

Whether Israel is right or wrong is a long discussion, but right now, I personally grew tired of it and have many other things to attend.
I can however state clearly and unequivocally: my family has done nothing wrong.

When it comes to my family I need no history, I need no excuses either: I support whatever it takes to secure their lives. I stand firmly behind my statement that you quoted.

I believe that if your family was also in Israel, you would feel exactly the same.

(my statement was wrongly posted under this topic, and was moved to the topic of "Should Jews leave Israel?")

I had a school friend in UK who joined her family in Israel in 1965, whose grandparents had been settled there since the 1800s. She and her husband were respected academics. We engaged in some lively political or social emails that I called 'Letters from Jerusalem' until she tragically died from what she considered was from stress related cancer.

I remember her describing how she, for the third time, was lining a room with plastic to escape possible gas attacks. "How awful!" I replied. "Not really it's taking the b..... stuff down again that is awful!"

She commented 'We are only to pleased to give the Palestinians automony. Problem is they fight amongst themselves and can't get politically organised".

Considering the small size of Israel, I don't think people realise
how close to home these attacks are on Israeli Jewish territory. Hamas gained election over the more liberal peace seeking Palestinians.

After the mandate was granted, 1948, a group of literally Jewish farmers without financial or political support from any other countries, defended their homeland and drove the Arab invaders out. The threatening Arab nations told the resident Palestinians to get out as they were going to be involved in a War Zone. And they did hoping to return to take possession of former Jewish property when the Jews were driven into the sea.

To quote the Israel PM, while apologizing to Gaza residents for civilian deaths. "Israel is not your enemy, Hamas is!"

So who cast the first stone, eh, going back 60 years? Not the Jewish
Israelis. Before this the Jews and resident Arab Palestinians lived
harmoniously together with possibly a common enemy - the Brits

Dane:

Palestine was wiped off the map when 77% of it became Jordan in 1946 and 17% of it became Israel in 1948. The remaining 6% - Gaza and the West Bank - remained under Egyptian and Jordanian occupation from 1948-1967 till it was lost to Israel in the Six Days War.

The Palestinian Arabs could have had their state in the whole of the West Bank and Gaza at any time during those 19 years of Jordanian and Egyptian occupation but failed to do so.

They have now been offered 93.6% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza by Israel with an area equal to the balance (6.4%) being given to them from the sovereign territory of Israel. This offer has been rejected. The Arabs only want 100% of the West Bank and Gaza. Israel is not prepared to cede any more territory in the West Bank and Gaza since to do so would involve the removal of about 500000 Jews.

Additionally the Palestinian Arabs will only agree to accept a State in the whole of the West Bank and Gaza if millions of Arabs are allowed to emigrate to Israel - not to their newly created state in the West Bank and Gaza.

These are indisputable facts.

The proposed "two state solution" is therefore not a solution whilst the parties remain in the current state of deadlock.

The only circuit breaker that has any chance of now peacefully resolving Arab and Jewish claims to the West Bank and Gaza involves Jordan and Egypt resuming their occupation in those parts of the West Bank and Gaza as are agreed on between them and Israel in trilateral negotiations. What Egypt and Jordan do with the areas returned to them will be their decision and that of the Arab League and the Palestinian Arabs.

If anyone has a better view of what should happen then let him put up the proposal and let it be discussed.

David, some of the people involved aren't what I assume to be experts in basic democracy philosophy or ideology. I mean Hamas and some extremist Islamic Palestinians, not Israelis. They are religious extremist and actually western or Israeli ideology on human rights, endorses women's rights. Something some Islamic extremists will not
recognize, and this undermines their control as men over their immediate sexual and social/religious environment? And amongst men
also.

This solution sounds logical and reasonable but I doubt the
Egyptians nor Jordanians wish to take on the responsibility of these
hot head Hamas lead people who wish to degrade women's rights back to the 15th century. They are ignorant! And can't adjust to modern
democratic and human rights ideologies.

Go in peace...

luv Bush bunny from Australia

David Singer,

The facts that you stated are correct facts. What remains is their interpretation.

"Israel is not prepared to cede any more territory in the West Bank and Gaza since to do so would involve the removal of about 500000 Jews."

Including about half of them (250000, mostly in Eastern-Jerusalem) that do not want to be there, who were lured into the territories out of economic-desperation when governments provided them exteremly cheap mortgages that were impossible to get elsewhere. They hate the place and pray for the day they can leave, but cannot afford other housing: is the government listening?

no, it is too busy with abstract ideology than listening to its citizens.

I also wish for Jordan and Egypt to take over those cursed territories (unlike you, all of them, to the last millimeter), or be it Martians if they will, or let these areas suddenly turn into an ocean, but when we open our eyes in the morning, they are still there.

True, the "Palestinian" people are a fiction, but there are about 3 million people right there that believe and feel they belong to this fiction. We must respect their feelings, regardless whether or not they are based on real historical facts.

"If anyone has a better view of what should happen then let him put up the proposal and let it be discussed"

Certainly:

It is not enough to stop and punish Hamas, it is as important to balance it by rewarding those Palestinians who are ready to accept Israel peacefully. Place the defence and security of the citizens of Israel first, no problem, but place generosity to others second. Be cruel, but only when necessary, and magnanimous at other times. Care for the well-being of real people, not for rotten old ideas. Stop thinking in terms of "Jews" and "gentiles", but consider all benevolent people as equal.

Bush bunny and Yuyutsu

Until Jordan,Egypt and Israel sit down and negotiate the division of sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza between their respective States, any speculation as to the possible outcome of those negotiations is futile.

Jordan, Egypt and Israel may require some inducements to get them to sit down at the negotiating table such as the promise of future aid, diplomatic support and military assistance. But none of them should be allowed to weasel out of entering into those trilateral negotiations simply by stating they want to have nothing to do with the West Bank and Gaza since all three at one time or another were the three sovereign states that have continuously occupied those territories for the last 61 years apart from the Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

The Palestinian Authority has had 15 years to negotiate a settlement
regarding sovereignty in the West Bank and Gaza and has failed to grasp the nettle. The negotiations on the Bush Roadmap have hit a brick wall due to irreconcilable differences between the Palestinian Authority and Israel.

Some other Arab negotiators will now have to step up to the plate if the Arabs wish to try and peacefully gain Arab sovereignty over that territory for the first time in history to the exclusion of Israel.

Jordan and Egypt remain the only possible interlocutors especially as both enjoy full diplomatic relations and signed peace treaties with Israel - something that has so far eluded the Palestinian Authority and will continue to elude the Palestinian Authority because of its refusal to moderate its 40 years old unchanged demands as well as revoke the PLO Charter that calls for Israel's destruction.

Redrawing the borders between Israel, Egypt and Jordan should hopefully prove to be a reasonably easy task in those trilateral negotiations.

If you have any better proposal to try and break the ongoing deadlock please let me know.

David,

How do they say in Israel... "If Grandma had wheels, she would have surely given me a ride!", so as we started to discuss practical solutions for solving the world's problems, let us start mining the cheese of the moon: it will be sufficient to feed the hungry population of this earth many times over!

"If you have any better proposal to try and break the ongoing deadlock please let me know."

Yes: Disband both Hamas and the Jewish settlers simultaneously, treat them both just as we treat the bikie-gangs in South Australia, then everything else will fall into place and peace will come naturally.

(the PA and Israel may require some inducements to get them to do the policing effectively, such as the promise of future aid, diplomatic support and military assistance)

No need for new plans as there are several good ones already, including the Roadmap. The only difference is that this time it will be followed SINCERELY. The Palestinian Authority has shown its sincerity by curbing Hamas in the west-bank and stopping terror attacks even while the fighting was going on in Gaza. Unlike your claim, they already revoked the relevant items on their charter that call for Israel's destruction - it is now time for Israel to exhibit the same sincerity.

Yuyutsu

You really are trying to mine cheese on the moon or perhaps indulging in pie in the sky or tongue in cheek comments. Best of British in ever seeing your solution come to fruition.

By the way the PLO Covenant has not been altered to my knowledge by even one word since it was first promised to be done in 1993. I am however ready to be corrected. Perhaps you can post the evidence to support your claim by referring me to any site where I might view the new document.

The Roadmap is dead and buried and has been for almost five years since George Bush wrote his letter to Ariel Sharon on 14 April 2004. Read it and you will see why. [http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/historicaldocuments/260.shtml]

The Roadmap did not even rate a mention in the 63 pages of evidence given by Hillary Clinton to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee ten days ago.

The PLO have even said they want to now negotiate on a totally new basis - namely the 2002 Saudi Peace Plan. That too has the same inherent defects that caused the Roadmap negotiations to end in tatters.

Sadly Hamas based terrorists are still firing rockets into South Israel.
I think Palestinians need other much stronger Islamic leaders to stop this. I heard that the Israeli diplomat in Sydney said that Iran was
a problem, and if this is the case, it does not become a problem between Israelis and Hamas but the rest of the world.

Let all live in peace