It is not hypocrisy; it is anti-Semitism.

re:

"Israel has attacked only military targets. Yes, Israel is using more firepower than Hamas, because Israel is trying to destroy Hamas’ ability to fire the rockets. Israel has attacked Hamas’ weapon caches, they’ve attacked Hamas’ headquarters and they’ve attacked places from which Hamas fires rockets."

Thank you for those reassurances. I guess I will not be recommending the UN schools in Gaza, as they appear to be military targets.

Plus, even if they are not targeted, but there is a war on, lessons are likely to be disrupted by all those refugees from other neighbourhoods teeming with Palestinian terrorists.

What is Israel really trying to do in Gaza? Here is a hypothetical:

www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680

"Who Owns the Gas Fields

"The issue of sovereignty over Gaza's gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to Palestine.

" [Factors including]... the ruin of the Palestinian Authority have enabled Israel to establish de facto control over Gaza's offshore gas reserves.

"British Gas (BG Group) has been dealing with the Tel Aviv government. In turn, the Hamas government has been bypassed in regards to exploration and development rights over the gas fields."

The issue is of course clouded by a 60 year history of racism and atrocities in the Holy Land. Interesting to go back to the late 40's, when Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote:

"You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be carefully taught"

Perhaps Tel Aviv would be a safer and more civilised place to send kiddies to school. I hope they would learn nice things there

Numbers, numbers, numbers. "5.4 million people have been killed in Congo ... 100,000 people (Israelis, Palestinians, Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc) who have been killed in the 60 years of the Arab-Israel conflict ... 12 million Muslims were killed by other Muslims". But nowhere does Bren tell us how many Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets and mortars over the last 8 years. Why? Possibly because the number is so small? Less than 20 according to my reading.

Bren could have listed the victims individually in his article if he had wished to. Since he didn't, here is the list (as best I can work out):
June 5, 2008 - Amnon Rosenberg
May 12, 2008 - Shuli Katz
May 9, 2008 - Jimmy Kedoshim
Feb 27, 2008 – Roni Yihye
May 27, 2007 - Oshri Oz
May 21, 2007 - Shirel Friedman
Nov. 21, 2006 - Yaakov Yaakobov
Nov. 11, 2006 - Faina Slutzker
March 28, 2006 - Salam and Khalid Ziadin
July 15, 2005 - Dana Gelkowitz
Jan. 15, 2005 - Ayala Haya Abukasis
Sept. 29, 2004 - Dorit Inso
Sept. 29, 2004 - Yuval Abeva,
June 28, 2004 - Afik Ohion Zehavi
June 28, 2004 - Mordechai Yosephus

Perhaps someone can provide a list of Palestinians killed by Israel over this period? I suspect it might by a bit longer.

Given that no one in the world has been willing to do anything that would guarantee Israel's security... to stop Arab attacks against the State of Israel... I wonder how countries of the world and the mainstream media can complain when the Israelis strike back.

I hear complaints that Israel responds with disproportionate use of force, and I wonder what the world expects of them. How many other countries would tolerate constant attacks against their own civilian populations, only to be condemned when they strike back. It seems that the world has acknowledged the right of Arab countries to kill Israelis.

Israel, on the other hand, has made numerous concessions to their enemies to try and achieve a lasting peace. And all (bar none) such peace initiatives have been rewarded by continued attacks on Israel.

In the long run, the only way for Israel to secure its borders and win a lasting peace is to decisively defeat its enemies, using whatever force required. Is this possible?

The Palestinians elected Hamas as their government. Hamas then attacked Israel, usually launching their attacks from within the confines of their own civilian areas, resulting in tragic deaths of Palestinian civilians in the counter attack. By electing Hamas, the Palestinian people, in effect, are getting what they asked for and deserve. Hamas knows that, by sacrificing their own people in this manner, the world will condemn Israel and thus validate the actions of Hamas.

Rest assured that, once again, pressure will be put on Israel to pull out under a form of cease fire or peace initiative. And after pulling out, it will only be a matter of time before the attacks on Israel are resumed. And the pattern will thus be repeated. The world knows this but could care less.

Bren Carlill,

how do you know that the Palestinians killed by the Israeli army are "mostly Hamas combatants", because the Israeli army says so? You certainly have a way with statistics,of the 100,000 people killed in the 60 years of Arab-Israeli wars, how many were Israelis? Israel claims moral superiority over its neighbours while disposessing them and forcing them into ghettos, your equation that Hamas=Palestinians is self-serving.

Explain what precisely is a "military" area in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world,all Gaza is a civilian area.

If Israel is genuinely attempting to negotiate a two-state solution, why are the settlements expanding? Israel's claims of negotiating in good faith are hypocritical, and the Palestinians are not deceived. If Israel showed a genuine desire to negotiate, organisations like Hamas would not be able to feed on Palestinian despair, Hamas is largely a creation of Israel. Some Moslems are undoubtedly anti-semitic, it's hardly all on their side, some Jews are all about killing Arabs, aren't they?

There is so much emotion concerning this
Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
So much finger-pointing. Each side seems
to feel that they are right, the other is
wrong, and that no-one fully appreciates their
suffering.

Each side claims to want a cease-fire, but only
on their terms. This makes the situation
impossible to resolve because both are sticking
to their 'guns,' so to speak.

We can only hope (and pray) that through pressure
from the international community and the newly-elected
US President, sanity will prevail, and
both sides can be persuaded to meet
face-to-face and negotiate honestly for a just
and secure peace that will be acceptable to both sides.

Because the other alternative is full-scale war that
will destroy everything.

The time of accusations is well and truly over.
It is time now to make amends before its too late.

I completely agree with you on this, and have to ask the following:

Why are all the Palestinians still in refuge camps?

Is the UN incapable of moving and relocating refugees?

Some of the people in camps there are 3rd generation.

Or is this somewhat more sinister, do the Palestinian officials refuse to allow the refuge camps to be disassembled and the people relocated because it suits their political purpose?

Why has the UN set up schools? Is that in their charter, or is it only in the Palestinian areas they do this - I suspect there is a whole raft of "special" UN activities in the Palestinian areas for political reasons.

The UN then is complicit in keeping innocents in the areas where militants can use them as shields?

Why are they keeping schools running in a war zone? Surely they should cease schooling as there is a war on - or is it because that's the status quo, there is always a war when you're in a Palestinian enclave. If that's the case, then why are they so surprised when something goes wrong?

The whole Palestinian provocation of Israel then bleating about casualties is a bit shallow - if you don't want war, don't annoy your very powerful, but fortunately tolerant, neighbor.

What else is the purpose of firing rockets every day if it is not to get a response?

Dear rpg,

The entire Gaza is a war zone. It is the most
densely populated enclave in the whole world.
There is no where safe to escape to - other
than neutral international zones such as the
UN schools.

According to Khalid Mish'al, head of the Hamas
political bureau, the reason for their
home-made rockets is - it's their cry of
protest to the world.

If 'terrorists' were firing home-made rockets
at Israel from Italian lands adjoining the Swiss
border, would Israel bomb switzerland?

Because that is what Israel has done by bombing
the neutral UN schools.

And if Switzerland responded to Israel what condemnation
would the world have against Switzerland?

Well said Foxy...

"Each side claims to want a cease-fire, but only
on their terms."

Of course we all have views and need to vent our spleens, but ultimately, no matter what we think, Israel has demonstrated that she will look after herself when no one else will.

I'm fairly confident that regarding a 'cease fire' alone... Israels requirments are: (as I have outlined on other threads)

BASIC/MINIMUM
1/ Cessation of Rocket fire
2/ International monitors on the Border with Egypt (and no..NO tunnels)
3/ Hand over remaining rockets. and pledge to not launch mortars.

WISH LIST IMPROVEMENT.
4/ Guarantee of no more Rockets/Mortars.
5/ Return the kidnapped soldier
6/ Renounce the 'destroy Israel part of the Hamas Charter.
7/ Re work the Charter in more peaceful terms.

If the Basic list is complied with... I cannot see any reason for Israel to be there..or to want to be there in Gaza... I'm sure they share this feeling.

My impression is that HAMAS still has serious ideological issue they wish to see fulfilled such as "Israel condemned as an aggressor" etc ..and more..they want other issues external to Gaza resolved such as West Bank settlements etc...
None of those things would be fixed overnight (if ever) so if they link peace to those things.. there simply will not be peace.

With the Settler population growing at 3 times the rest of Israels... one might be persuaded that the likelihood of Settlements being dismantled is increasingly less probable. Hard political reality if nothing else will have this result.

Dear Foxy - none of that answers my questions.

Why don't the UN move the Palestinians out of the refugee camps to OTHER COUNTRIES, not all them to go on for generations.

Every other country with refugees eventually empties them to other countries who take them, we do, others do.

Why have they not been resettled?

"According to Khalid Mish'al, head of the Hamas political bureau, the reason for their home-made rockets is - it's their cry of protest to the world." Then don't expect some of the responses to your anguished cries to the world (that kill your neighbors) to come back in spades and kill your people - do they really expect no consequences?

If 'terrorists' were firing home-made rockets at Israel from Italian lands adjoining the Swiss border, would Israel bomb switzerland? No of course not, they'd bomb the people firing the rockets, there is a big difference in scale though as you know very well in a street setting that was involved and the scenario you pitch in your response - don't skew the argument in this way, you look dishonest.

I can see you're passionate, but get some perspective - how would you deal with your neighbor doing this, regardless of their excuses, killing people as a "cry of pain" is a piss poor excuse, and should not be tolerated.

Prime Minister: If I were the Prime Minister of Australia I would be having a word with my people. You said we were in this world together. Where are you PM Rudd on humanitarian issues, International Law and the Geneva Convention.

Where are you really when it comes to our role in the United Nations? Protecting Mothers and Children?

Why is it only people like Ms Helen Clark who can be firm but fair. Have courage to decide the difference between right and wrong and be visual about it.

A larger part of your voter majority is in absolute grief over all the deaths in the offensive occuring in Gaza PM Mr Rudd. We look to your leadership. It is sad that you leave it to us to stand, as if if such a protest ought to be about doing something only after you see safety in numbers.

God help us Mr Rudd.

What is the meaning of BEST when it comes to Leadership, with your people over these matters. How ever can we promote change without more of the common affirmation?

Action speaks Louder than Words. "Being there" visual, regardless of our joint powerlessness would Help. That is what unitifies us if we make the effort, regardless, if we could only try.

http://www.miacat.com/
.

rpg says
"Why don't the UN move the Palestinians out of the refugee camps to OTHER COUNTRIES, not all them to go on for generations."

?

Is it because the Palestinians rightfully live in Palestine?

Read this, rpg - it may strike you as radical, but it is what many folks consider a reasonable diplomatic position:

http://aipac.org/Publications/SourceMaterialsCongressionalAction/SenateRes.pdf

It is a bill currently before the US Senate, promoting pro-Israel policy for the incoming American administration.


A brief summary of issues, under the heading
"Question of Palestine"

is to be found at:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

Palestinian and pro-Palestinian viewpoints can be found at:

http://www.electronicintifada.net
and
http://www.palestinechronicle.com

Palestinian viewpoints are shared by many nations around the world. See:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2009/sc9565.doc.htm

This press release, which publicises the viewpoints of voices at the 6061st UN Security Council meeting stated:

"Stressing that there was no military solution to the conflict between Israel and Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, delegations called today for stepped up diplomatic efforts to end it, warning the Security Council that the upsurge in violence threatened hopes for future Israeli-Palestinian peace and exacerbated an already dire humanitarian situation in the densely populated territory.

"As the Council concluded the special meeting it began yesterday on the Gaza crisis, speakers expressed deep concern that thus far into the 12-day-old conflict, neither side had heeded worldwide calls for an immediate cessation of hostilities. Decrying the mounting civilian casualties, delegates condemned Israel’s ground incursion into Gaza, even as they called for an end to the launching of rockets into southern Israel by Hamas. Still, it was the plight of the nearly 1.5 million Palestinian civilians trapped by the fighting, and the deteriorating humanitarian conditions, that drew the most concern."

There's much more, of course.

rpg, I'm hoping the above broadens your outlook.

JohnJ

You present that cut and paste as if you believe "only" 20 Israelis have died?

I am sure the United Nations Third World Reichstag will impose a resolution upon the Jewish State, and instead, they enjoy the Idea of the Arab Moslem states to kill off Jews now day, Palestinian‘s , this is a good propaganda starting point.

Remember our very own K9 Rudd Has sent 60 odd million dollars of Tax payer’s money to help fund this little Jewish genocide;
OOOO yes Prove to the Australian Tax payer; none of this; “AID” money was actually spent on rearming the Socialist / Moslem terrorist offensive?
It certainly did not do much for the Education, or provide any economical benefit out side of Russia or Iran.
And a few others Bank Ballance.
I suppose K9 Rudd is directly involved in funding terrorism ?

And us , as The Tax payers are implicated.

This is complementary info about

*the study of the media manipulation to decrease the deaths of Palestinians and increase the Israeli figures
*and how the Israeli PR works in USA

The first one is around half an hour. I suggest you view this first

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-5600677940569035557&hl=en

And this is a 4-5 minute trailer (of not the one above) of another clip. I suggest you view this after watching the background clip above)

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=1237881540722380082&hl=en

"You can go to jail in Australia for giving money to Hamas, he writes, but it’s not an offence to give money to Israeli causes. He calls this stance hypocritical."

Absolutely hypocritical, after all most of the land of Palestine was Palestinian before 1948, it then got invaded - a Jewish book called the Bible's Old T claims some God gave it to them - and the natives whacked, thrown into refugee camps ... and for resisting they still get labelled terrorists.

I find it hardly surprising that after 60 years of abuse, and ever smaller pockets of Palestinian land in the Gaza/ West Bank due to ever more settlements and other land grabs - w/o mentioning the rest of the mandate of Palestine for a moment, that it is legal in Australia to support the occupier, but not the oppressed.

Something is seriously wrong alright, and it is not just in Palestine.

Zionism is Hamas, only difference is Zionism so far has had better backing, better strategies and better tactics. One day they will pay for outrages committed in the lead up to 1948, and since then ...

Hanna,
I watched the first of your videos. Fantastic. I have never trusted the media for the last few years. Especially when it comes to such things as the Israeli situation. I knew someone a few years ago whose mother was Polish and spent time in a concentration camp. She stated that within the camp the jews did many terrible things including only giving out medications to fellow jews and thus allowing non-jews to die. She said to others never to trust a jew. I found this most interesting as it came from someone who was actually there, not some biased book written by a Jew, with a pro-jewish slant.
Anyway it would be nice if we could somehow hold the media by law to report in a fair and unbiased manner.
It seems that the Israeli's are not allowing foreign journalists in, so they can just kill whoever they want. Judging from the video it seems the jews are mainly up against a few kids with sticks and rocks and others with home made rockets.
I hope the death toll evens up a bit, although I am almost certain it will not.
One last point which I think has already been mentioned, that is to check who the author is before reading the article.

Meredith, Bren Carlill's point is that the media is biased against Israel. He says that for "eight years Israeli cities were brutalised by Hamas rockets" but that the media ignored the issue. This is patently untrue, surely I'm not the only one who has seen endless media reports on rocket damage in Israel?

Carlill then argues that the media "took notice only when Israel responded", that "simple logic" supports the Israeli attacks and that anyone who disagrees with Israel's actions is guilty of "hypocritical fallacy".

I found it curious that Carlill didn't actually quantify the number of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets, so I went looking for the actual number (having a vague recollection that it was about 40) and stumbled on an actual list. And yes, I'm guilty as charged, of "cut and paste". But where is the list of Palestinian dead?

My point was that the extensive coverage of Israel's dead gives the lie to Carlill's shrill accusations of hypocrisy and bias. If this is really the best that the AIJAC can do to defend Israel's actions, then Israel has a serious PR problem. A problem that has nothing to do with media bias.

John J,

So you lied to prove your point? You can't defend it.. especially when misrepresentation is what your on about

The truth is that one form of bias begets another opposing form of bias. As Israel has used its power to (mostly indirectly) inflict suffering on the Palestinians over the years - after all a lot of Israelis still think of themselves as God's people - others in the international community who can see the injustices find another forum in which they can get square, as it were, with Israel. Their weapon of choice is the international media. This is no more than the Law of Reciprocal Action in operation.

Just to thoroughly compound the situation, Israel has a legitimate right to protect its citizens. Although the Hamas rocket attacks are like throwing darts at an elephant, if Israel does not show sufficient resolve in protecting itself, it will just invite more rocket attacks (and worse) from the militant Islamists. While it's true that ordinary Palestinians are disproportionately suffering as a result of the political interests of other Arabs, it doesn't mean the rest of the Arab world will take kindly to Israel if it suddenly drops its guard and takes a compassionate approach to Palestine. The Arab world will more than likely take that as a sign of weakness and attack even more, such is the deep-seated resentment between the two.

It might well be lucky for Israel that it has the nuclear deterrent. There's always the threat that any full scale incursion of Israel will precipitate a like response on an Arab city. Hopefully, before such an event happens, the people of the region can learn to live with their differences.

STRANGE WEAPONS being used by Israel.

Can you all look at this article..and see the image.. we have all been watching these repeatedly..but I have no clue about 'what' they are..

can anyon help?

http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2999127/Israel-rejects-U-N-resolution-pounds-Gaza.html

They seem to explode in mid air and send hundreds of glowing bits to the ground...

?

Polycarp,
Israel has been using white phosphorus weapons as a "smokescreen" - they are banned for anti-personnel use as by the US in Iraq. The other weapon used in Gaza-to awful effect-is D.I.M.E (Dense Inert Metal Explosive) bombs. See the Wikipedia entry for the full horror story. DIME munitions inflict carcinogenic effects and result in wounds which amputate limbs. These US munitions, and cluster bombs, should be banned for use against civilian ppulations.

Surely a taste of history will be helpful to save the Middle East.

Both experiencing and quoting such history, John Falconer writing in the WEST AUSTRALIAN January 6, 'oo9, says that at the time of the beginning of today's Palestine problem, the UN of the time gave the appropriate answer - that the Palestine area must be partitioned democratically between the Arabs and Jews, as well as especially being under International control.

From Falconer - but the devil was in the detail and the Arab side of the decisionmaking was mostly brushed aside.

Thus with American help plus US dollars the tiny state of modern Israel was born.

From Falconer - If the US had only insisted that the aleady battling Arab state had been given even partial backing similar to Israel things might have turned out better.

From Falconer - in all this sorry affair it seems the present UN maybe should take the blame because it may have been hard for the US to remain an honest broker.

As the message carrier, the above leaves myself even more concerned about what most of the present Israelie's parents had gone through during the horrific Nazi Death Camps.

Historically, however, what has causd me to remain defiant has been the foolishness of the modern world agreeing to such a tiny state like Israel going strongly militarily atomic.

Admiration thus has long gone to Henry Kissinger, who as a Jew and high-ranking politicl scientist besides Minister of State under Richard Nixon, gave warning that if allowed a militarily atomic little Israel could upset the balance of power in the Middle East possibly to the point of a WW3.

Though it may be again boring that one again brings up
Kantian philosophy -

as regards our pretty well useless present UN, it is all important because it was Kant who first gave us the idea of a UN formed only from a Federation of Democratic Nations.

But while the League is said to have collapsed through British single power authority, our present UN has collapsed through the over-authoritarianism of Pax Americana.

Hi Bren,
always dangerous to wear glasses single sided, mate!
If you watch international news you will find that almost all nations, whether western or others, condemn Israel's latest war on Gaza. Why would that be? Maybe, just maybe, Israel is the aggressor, not the other way around.
You will not find similar news or stands on our Australian news, and of course not on the American news. It is not a coincidance, that Israel started another war on its neighbours right now. As long as the warhead George W. Bush is in power, he will back up everything Israel asks for and does. That might not be the case with the new president coming.
Since the beginning of time, so it seems, is Israel fighting its neighbours. Are they all bad? Why would a peaceful nation always fight its neighbours? How come that the majority of nations condemn Israel, if Israel is only protecting itself?
As long as peace cannot be found in that region our world will always be in crises.
cheers m2catter

Ozzie,

This is not about Jews (or Muslims or Christians), this is about criminal behaviour. No religious or ethnic group has a monopoly on that.

Think carefully about how you might behave in a concentration camp, before you pass on your auntie's hatred and racism, expressed when she told of her own horrific experiences.

The video from
www.IfAmericaknKnew.org
makes plain that Gaza is virtually a concentration camp, and children are being targeted.

Racism and vilification will not stop these atrocities, now or in the long run. Calm, persistent seeking after justice, in the face of horror, outrage and despair, is what is needed. It is what the video shows:
http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-5600677940569035557&hl=en

B'Tselem (www.btselem.org)is doing an outstanding job of this in Israel, and you will recall that the video's narrator cites B'Tselem as her source for many statistics regarding deaths of Palestinians.

Go back and read my post of Friday, 9 January 2009 9:43:14
with the lyrics:

"You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

"You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught

"You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be carefully taught"

from Rodgers and Hammerstein, South Pacific - first produced in 1949

You may also wish to visit
http://www.playgroundsforpalestine.org/,
which seeks donations to provide Palestinian children with some bright spots in their difficult lives.

The tactics of blockading Gaza and creating a barrier have not stopped the rockets being fired from civilian areas.

The options are to sit back and allow the rockets to be fired or
Destroy the fighters and rockets.

Tough choice.

Over 800 Palestinians dead to date and counting. Maybe Israel should review their PR methods and have educational training in human rights.

I've just come across an interesting article
by Miko Peled, an Israeli peace activist and
writer living in San Diego, US.
He writes, from San Diego,
1st January 2009.

"As I sit and view the reports, photos and live
videos streaming in from Gaza I find it impossible to
make sense of it all. As a boy growing up in Israel
and attending a regular public school, I remember
being taught the story of Abraham, the patriarch
arguing with God over the decision to destroy the
city of Sodom.

"And Abraham stood before the Lord. And Abraham drew
near, and said: wilt thou also destroy the righteous
with the wicked, perhaps there are 50 righteous within
the city, wilt thou also destroy and not spare the
place for the righteous that are therein? ... and the
Lord said, if I find in Sodom 50 just men within the city,
then I will spare all the place for their sakes"
(Genesis, 18, 23-26).

One has to admire Abraham for his tenacity, arguing with
God Almighty for the sake of 50! Today I heard the claim
made that "only" 50 innocent people were killed in this
attack and I thought: even if the number of civilians
killed were so low (and it is much higher) God would have
spared Gaza for those 50, but not Ehud Barak.

One has to admire the idea that no matter what, the life
of innocent civilians is sacred and must never be
compromised. There can be no doubt that among the
1.5 million people residing in Gaza there are more than
50 righteous men and women, but more importantly, there
are 800,000 children in Gaza.

According to reports in the Israeli newspapers
hundreds of thousands of children were on their way
to and from school at the time that 50 Israeli
warplanes began a nine-hour attack during which they
dropped more than one hundred tons of bombs."

Meredith you say "So you lied to prove your point? You can't defend it.. especially when misrepresentation is what your (sic) on about." I reread both of my posts and reread both of yours and I simply have no clue what you're talking about.

Israel has killed 800 people in a (so far vain) attempt to stop rockets landing in southern Israel. In that context, I believe that less than 20 killed by rockets over an 8-year period is a small number. If someone suggested that the deaths of 20 Australians (no matter how heinous the circumstances) justified killing 800 foreigners (including a large number of innocent women and children), I'd presume that person was irrational. It seems that this kind of stuff only makes sense in some alternative reality. Or in the Middle East.

CONT'D

"With Israeli elections scheduled for February, Israeli
Defense Minister Ehud Barak, who is hoping to once
again become prime minister, has once again unleashed the
Israeli military on the civilian population of Gaza.

Barak, who has earned the dubious distinction of
being Israel's most decorated soldier, is guaranteeing
that Israelis and Palestinians will see more violence
and more loss of innocent lives.

With columns of tanks, and brigades of infantry ready to
attack already destroyed Gaza. Barak hopes to prove that
he is a candidate who can deliver. But unlike the
biblical story, there is no one willing to stand up
to General Barak and argue for the lives of even
50 righteous people, not to mention, 800,000 children."

"The question has been raised of whether or not the
Israeli attacks on Gaza is disproportionate to the
threat that Gaza presents to Israel.

The answer to that lies not in numbers, not in comparing
how many rockets were fired or how many of the dead are
actually Hamas people and how many were bystanders.

The answer lies in the biblical Abraham's admonition towards
God in Genesis 18: "Far be it from thee to slay
the righteous with the wicked."

Miko Peled, the Israeli peace activist is a voice of
reason. We need to hear voices of reason at this time.
He raises the question,

"Why is it right to speak of equal rights everywhere
except for Israel and Palestine?...it is the right time
to discuss the establishment of a secular, democratic state
in Israel/Palestine in which human and civil rights
are guananteed to all of its citizens."

Rogers and Hammerstein, Sir Vivor. Sounds too cute for the lyrics doesn’t it? I agree on one aspect. We have to be brought up to hate and fear. That’s why one of the biggest tragedies to me is that with such huge $$$ in humanitarian aid to Gazans/Palestinians over all these years, the only infrastructure they have built is schools where small children are indoctrinated to hate Israel and to look forward to the day when they can take up the most noble of careers - that of the suicide bomber.
Have you seen the crayon drawings of young Palestinian children with explosives drawn strapped to their bodies? It is chilling and unforgettable. Yes, Rogers and Hammerstein indeed. We are taught to hate. However Israel will not wipe out a generation of Palestinians who despise them and will their destruction despite such indoctrination. Where was the condemnation of rockets being launched at Israel since 2001? Israel will try to cripple even eliminate Hamas's ability to murder innocent Israelis in towns showered with rockets. They will occasionally err and civilians will be killed and this is the tragedy created by a movement using human shields to invoke world condemnation of Israel.
If radical Moslems blow themselves up in the name of Jihad, and consider it an honour to die for the cause, how can one negotiate for peace with them in order to protect human life

Foxy Quotes:

"As I sit and view the reports, photos and live
videos streaming in from Gaza I find it impossible to
make sense of it all" He must be of rather dim mind then...because I totally get it all.

With reference to the Abraham/sodom story.... unfortunately it is not an allegory which can be applied to any place at any time.

It was an encounter between a real Abraham with the Almighty over a particular issue in history.

The root of the problem is found right here below:

The simple fact that the Arabs REJECTED the partition plan (due to agitation from Nazi Grand Mufti Husseini) while the Jews ACCEPTED IT in 1948.

UN DOCUMENT:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch2.pdf

The Jewish Agency ACCEPTED the resolution despite its dissatisfaction
over such matters as Jewish emigration from Europe
and the territorial limits set on the proposed Jewish State. The
plan was NOT ACCEPTED by the Palestinian Arabs and Arab States
on the ground that it violated the provisions of the United
Nations Charter, which granted people the right to decide their
own destiny. They said that the Assembly had endorsed the
Plan under circumstances unworthy of the United Nations and
that the Arabs of Palestine would oppose any scheme that provided
for the dissection, segregation or partition of their country,
or which gave special and preferential rights and status to a
minority.

The above sets the stage for the emergence of Hamas and the PLO.

In order to see the full picture, it should be read in conjunction with the letters between Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Zionist organizations. Faisal was the legitimate representative of the Arabs when the British mandate ended. Faisal was declared 'King of the Arabs' in 1918.
Methinks some of us need to do some more reading :)

It appears that the gulf-like contrast between the acceptance and welcome of Zionism by Faisal, the Arab/Palestinian unrest, is explained by the agitation of Nazi lacky Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

John J

My apologies, I have confused lists… and included the victims of Palestinian terrorism in my count which your not counting.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2000/In+Memory+of+the+Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+a.htm

However I do think the list of Jewish victims would be a more suitable list to include along side the Palestinian list of victims.

As for victims, I would say either side are all victims of Hamas, Palestinian, Lebanese, Iranian, intolerance of Jewish existence etc. I think you will find even the most tolerant governments will not disagree that Israel have the right to defend themselves. The fact that Israel is strong is an asset to it not a sin or crime. It will always have world support in defending itself.

Israel is obviously not going to move, how can it, be realistic… The Nazis learned and the Anti Israel parts of the Middle Eastern world need to learn extermination is not acceptable… then possibly we may get somewhere.

The reason the Jews are in Israel is that the world gave it to them after the Nazis Jewish Holocaust. We did it because it was good and right, it is their holy land and we gave it back to them.

Dealing with Hamas is impossible, terrorism is by definition about not negotiating.

As for Palestine, if anything help the people out of the poverty so they don’t vote, in desperation, for terrorists. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/ if they will let us

What are the goals of this war?
Do you believe that this war will support Israel?
Do you believe that this war will weaken Hamas?
Why Hamas has so big popularity? (it won the majority in last elections)
do you think the killing and suffering of palesthnias from Israelis will weaken or strength Hamas?
I BELIEVE THAT THIS WAR WILL SENT THOUSANDS OF PALESTHNIANS TO HAMAS'S MILITARY TRAINING CAMPS, THAT THIS WAR WILL WEAKEN THE AL FATAH AND USA FRIENDS IN THE REGION.
A stupid war which will support the coalition parties of Israel government in the next elextions but THIS WAR WILL DAMAGE THE INTERESTS OF ISRAEL

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

meredith,

Are you serious? "The reason the Jews are in Israel is that the world gave it back to them..." The "world" had no right to allocate Palestinian land to Jewish refugees,why should they pay the bill for 2000 years of anti-semitism? The assumption was, that the obstacle to Zionist expansion ( an insignificant people called the Palestinians) would disappear from history, well they haven't. Jews living outside of Palestine had no more right "to return", than gentiles.

In reference to the notion of "extermination",which people diminishes day by day, the Palestinians or the Israelis. Israel possesses all the deadly armaments and the uncritical support of the US, bloodthirsty threats from Hamas representatives are empty rhetoric.

Sassy, you say:

"I agree on one aspect. We have to be brought up to hate and fear. That’s why one of the biggest tragedies to me is that with such huge $$$ in humanitarian aid to Gazans/Palestinians over all these years, the only infrastructure they have built is schools where small children are indoctrinated to hate Israel and to look forward to the day when they can take up the most noble of careers - that of the suicide bomber."

The implication seems to be that someone is helping the Palestinians to grow their children in to hateful extremists. Is that what you are saying?

Have you checked out the video link I copied from an earlier post?

The name of the video is "Off the Charts". It can also be accessed at www.IfAmericansKnew.org

Graphs there show comparative expendituresby the USA, briefly mentioned at about 24 and a half minutes into the video:

"During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel and $0.3 million per day to the Palestinians. (View Source)"

Could it be that money may also make it easier for some in Israel to project the power of their hatred.

The comparative amounts of money are not my point, although power is plainly on the side of the State of Israel, if we measure it in terms of resources, influence and direct control over the workings of the Gazan economy, of flows of money and resources into and out of Israel.

My point is that, under the circumstances of Gazan life, hatred and rebellion are sown in a fertile field. Israel could change that. Instead, it uses its military to control a virtual concentration camp.

I am not excusing criminal behaviour of Palestinians. I am not assigning blame. I am asking Israel to take humane responsibility for a population which has been and is ever more so under their thumb, even during a ghetto uprising.

Hamas could stop the Israeli action tomorrow, by agreeing to stop firing rockets into Israel, allow international monitors, get rid of the tunnels, stop smuggling arms into Gaza,stop hiding its military behind civilians, and repudiate its charter to "utterly destroy Israel".
Somehow I don't think this Islamist death cult is going to do any of these things, do you? It is going to keep using the population in Gaza to try to put Israel in a bad light, for its own political gain.
They have done absolutely nothing positive for the people of Gaza. They can't even deal in a civilised manner with their political rivals, Fatah.
I think Israel should ignore the squeals of outrage from hypocritical Islamo-fascists and their western apologists and just smash Hamas as soon as possible.
If Israel really wanted to cause more damage in Gaza, it has the means to do so, but in my view has shown a lot of restraint so far.

Johntas,

White Phosphorus is a particularly horrific WMD.

Despite initial denials it was indeed used against personnel in IRAQ.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4442988.stm

I'll spare you the links that show it's effects on people.

Mac,

Of course I'm serious as serious as the world was and still is after the Nazis Jewish Holocaust.

I wouldn't try to play the *hard done by* card against the Jews man, silly to even try.

meredith,

You haven't answered my questions on the previous post, especially as to why the Palestinans have been presented with the bill for the Holocaust. The Jews weren't the only victims of the Nazis or even the most numerous, the Slavs and the Roma were also marked for extermination,as not worthy of a life or land( rather like the Palestinians today )why not special homelands for the Roma survivors?

" I wouldn't try to play the "hard done by card" against the Jews.." what the hell does that mean anyway? If you have any arguments, please present them. I'll mention one card that has been played far to often, is accusations of "anti-semitism" against critics of Israel,it is rather threadbare and grubby with overuse.

Paying Attention, if only we all knew could it make a difference?

In our fight is against terrorism, "what is terrorism"?

Have we given up our freedom, individually?

If we talk to those who lost their sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and other loved ones in war..... what is it we could discover.... a "Pyrrhic Victory"?

I walked out of five formula mainstream journalism some 25 years ago. I walked out of Marketing, refusing to be the one to find manipulative strategies used to create mis-giuded consumer sales. At great cost to myself, I found I could not promote distortion. Celebrate war over hardship without awareness of the causalities.

In politics; I will not ask you to 'tighten your belt', as tax-payers over spending' allocated to budgets that create the cycle of Conflict - Terror, Fear and Poverty. If war has a place; "We" have abused it's strategy.

I am affirmative, a solider, having seen more in my life, concerning the victims of war, than I would know how to report. What is a true solider?

I am a journalist, having the code that stands square with the eye to see critically. What is a true journalist?

I am a citizen loyal with courage, I see the mirror we create for ourselves and I prefer the truth over the shelter confronts created by a fog glazed glass awash with false based pledges of emotion and displaced denials.

I wont chill out when people are being shot, raped of their future security; because our governments refuse to accept the truth.

Money can not buy me War.

I understand Fair Trade and Exchange, however buying war, marketing 'dog eat dog" partner deceptions to support my own comfort-zone means I suggest; we are economically [least we make the connections], Now - about to pay for it as citizens, by association.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-5600677940569035557&hl=en

Our blindness has no excuse.

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=1237881540722380082&hl=en

My own interest is "what will Ms Hillary Clinton" do about Gaza?

What is the question we need to ask Now and where is Australia to be?

http://www.miacat.com/
.

Dear miacat,

Kathleen Christison, wrote on 8 November 2003:

"...the most pernicious aspect of a political
philosophy like Zionism that masquerades as
democratic is that it requires an enemy in
order to survive, and, where an enemy does not
exist, it requires that one be created.

In order to justify racist repression and
dispossession, particularly in a system purporting
to be democratic, those being repressed and
displaced must be portrayed as murderous and
predatory.

And in order to keep its own population in line,
to prevent a humane people from objecting to their
own government's repressive policies, it requires that
fear to be instilled in the population: fear of "the
other," fear of the terrorist, fear of the Jew-hater.

The Jews of Israel must always be made to believe that
they are the preyed-upon. This justifies having forced
these enemies to leave, it justifies discriminating
against those who remained, it justifies denying
democratic rights to those who later came under Israel's
control in the occupied territories."

Desmond Tutu, April 2002 had this to say:

"People are scared in this country (the US),
to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby
is powerful - very powerful.
Well, so what?
For goodness sake, this is God's world!
We live in a moral universe.

The apartheid government was very powerful,
but today it no longer exists.
Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin
were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.
Injustice and oppression will never prevail.

Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test
that God gives to the powerful;
What is your treatment of the poor, the hungry,
the voiceless?
And on the basis of that, God passes judgement.
We should put out a clarion call to the government
of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people
and say:

Peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible.
We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this
peace, because it is God's dream, and you will be able
to live amicably together as sisters and brothers."

People also paid little notice to the ongoing sanctions against Gaza or the kidnapping of Hamas politicians until the last week or so.
Now all they talk about is the Hamas rockets and the Israeli response, not the lead up to them.

The public are mere reactionaries, responding to the immediate situations they are told abour or allowed to see.

Just like all the noise made about Tibet during the Olympic torch relay or the occasional news from Zimbabwe, this will also fade away as soon as "the next big thing" is announced.

how dare anyone compare the murder of SIX MILLION jews to israel's actions, whether you support israel or not? in aushwitz at the height of the holocaust 12 000 jews were being gassed every day. if israel wanted to commit genocide then the death toll would be higher then 800.

Totally right Liberal. if Israel wanted to, it could completely flatten Gaza, and, for that matter, Southern Lebanon, Syria and Iran.
It has not done so.
Hamas bears all the responsibility in this conflict because it wilfully refuses to entertain peace with Israel. Indeed its very charter specifically states that it wants the complete destruction of Israel.
Hamas is also completely amoral, in siting their rockets and military among the Gazan population and using hospitals, mosques, universities and private homes as arms caches.
We are not talking about a children's game here, that leftist bleeding-heart apologists for the Islamo-fascists can pontificate upon, all in the comfort and security of their homes. I'm damn sure that if anyone was sending rockets into my neighbourhood every day, I'd do anything I needed to do to stop it. Hamas is using its captive population to score political points, as it does not care about dead children. Hamas can't even deal properly in a democratic manner with their political opponents.
Hamas is deliberately doing all this so it can use the dead civilians as pawns in their religious/political inspired cause. They do not give a damn about the people of Gaza.
Why can't otherwise intelligent people see this?
If the people of Gaza have elected Hamas, knowing what Hamas intended to do, then they can't complain about the consequences.

I really do not think it is actually representative of any
description Foggy by referring to the Leftist bed wetters as
anything other than the correct clinical expression. – They are chronically deluded psychopaths, and it is rather obvious , and
almost ridicules where some like to invoke some Media Idiocy, as
accurate reporting,; it rather gives a reasonable impression of how
life was when Gobles was the Information Minister of the Anti Semite Socialism party, the only difference in Modern times is the media is in Automaton mode and propagate the disinformation by default.

They do not require a disinfomation minister anymore.

Have a look at this, you brave defenders of war on women and children:

"Five women – Palestinian, American, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish – tell stories of humiliation and harassment by Israeli border guards and airport security officials.
Watch the Video"

http://ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/childabuse.html

"If Americans Knew was astonished to learn that Israeli officials have also been strip-searching girls as young as seven and below.

According to interviews with women in the United States, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli border officials periodically force Christian and Muslim females of all ages to remove their clothing and submit to searches. In some cases the children are then “felt” by Israeli officials.

Sometimes mothers and children are strip-searched together, at other times little girls are taken from their parents and strip-searched alone. Women are required to remove sanitary napkins, sometimes with small daughters at their side. Sometimes women are strip searched in the presence of their young sons.

All report deep feelings of humiliation. Many describe weeping at the degradation they felt.

“I remember crying and pleading with my mother,” Gaza journalist Laila El-Haddad recalls of an experience when she was 12-years-old, hoping that her mother could convince the Israeli official to allow her to keep her undershirt on. But parents are unable to shield their children, El-Haddad and others report.

“They had machine guns,” El-Haddad explains. “We just had to submit.”

What goes on at the Israeli-Palestiniqn border crossings border crossings is an abuse of power. This kind of perverted, power-mad behaviour destroys lives and breeds suicide bombers. Is this the kind og behaviour you can defend?

This disgusting cruelty has been reported in the past by B'Tselem. It is officially or unofficially sanctioned behaviour, or it would have ended long, long ago.

Some posters here will try to prevaricate or simply lie their way out of it. My advice to them is wake up and smell the corpses.

Sur Vivor
I have just watched the video that has got you so steamed up.
Are you for real?
Even if these things had happened as stated, remember that the border between Israel and Gaza is a war zone, largely because of the suicide bombing and rocket attacks by Palestinians.
It is necessary to strip search women as they are constantly used by the Palestinians to carry out suicide bombings in Israel.
You are seriously equating a strip search with a suicide bombing which indiscriminately blows people apart as they go about their daily business?
I think you desperately need to get a sense of proportion, old chap.

Israeli/Defense-Force:“..Being Cautious Means Being Aggressive”

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7069

Palestinian casualties keep mounting,with fully one-third being children.

Channel 4 UK Report From Gaza

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7056

Meet the children left to die among the bodies of their parents and families.

Gaza officials: Massive sewage flood imminent

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7071

..Due to the ongoing Israeli invasion of Gaza,nearly 700,000 Palestinians have gone without water for days,and sewage pumping systems have stopped.

Israel tells Gazans to brace for war escalation
http://www.infowars.com/?p=7068

..The Israeli threat to launch a“new phase”in its two-week-old offensive

Israelis Have Abducted Hundreds of Palestinian Youth for“Information”

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7077

Hundreds of Palestinians have become the captives of Israeli forces during the current military operation in the Gaza Strip.

What Do You Know About Gaza?

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7080

essential points ,much of which has taken place in the press,about Israel’s attack on the Gaza Strip.

Foreign Press:Israel a“Military Dictatorship”

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7065

Israel running the risk of being portrayed in the same manner as countries such as Burma and Zimbabwe.

Israel’s Dress Rehearsal for Lebanon

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7058

..Israel’s new leaders are expected to take what they’ve learned in Gaza and use it in Lebanon.

Israeli Wiretappers,the NSA,and 9/11
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6983

..The two companies that should be getting extra scrutiny from 9/11 researchers are Amdocs,and NICE Systems...Both have direct links to 9/11 via the milieu known as the“Israeli DEA Groups”.

Ron/Paul on Gaza,Non-Interventionism

http://www.infowars.com/?p=7076

Ron Paul..says the U.S.should not support Israel and mind its own business.

‘Iran aid ship nears Gaza’
http://www.infowars.com/?p=7035

..An Iranian aid ship,..destined for Palestinians,has reportedly entered Egyptian waters and scheduled to dock at the port of Gaza on Saturday.

the Crime of using the depleted uranium against Iraqis
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6971

..The people of Iraq/gaza are very much concerned about the disaster of the depleted uranium,which threatens their lives,health conditions and the future of their coming generations.

‘Key Ally In The War On Terror’Breaks With U.S.,Condemns Israel For Gaza Strikes
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6915

CBS:KBR knowingly exposed troops to toxic dust
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6802

Dick Cheney,knowingly exposed United States soldiers to toxic materials in Iraq

The Secret and(Very)Profitable World of Intelligence and Narcotrafficking[and 9/11]

http://www.infowars.com/?p=6982
Noorzai..profited handsomely from the protection of his Taliban“friends,”his ISI mentors and allegedly the CIA.

Well, the last time I landed in Thailand, “Words used “; I was accosted by 4 Thai police men , who were four foot 8 with a hat, wielding automatic weapons, I am six foot tall , I felt threatened, I was unarmed , apart from a passport and a passenger ticket , so I had to submit, then I arrived in Heathrow where another 3 British Police accosting us, who also armed with automatic weapons; I think I have to undergo some psychiatric counselling now , And we are in the midst of Cultural Cretin attacks , And we are not at war with anyone else ; are we? ;-

Michael Moore has made the picture propaganda wars a bit harder to swallow, and I agree about smelling the dead corpses; but I actually wonder what side you are talking about, Israeli Hospitals are usually full of Palestinians seriously wounded by their own Government, just as a typical daily routine.

But I would guess that this is a public relations stunt? The Zionists are very clever in Media manipulation, obviously not as good as Idiot spherical psychopaths though. That propaganda is swamping everyone.

Froggie and others, there is a connection between the behaviour of suicide bombers and their past experiences. I suggest you Google and read the article below, by Scott Atran, then connect the dots.

[PDF] TUNING OUT HELL’S HARPISTS [Scott Atran, November 2004]

hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/05/36/11/PDF/ijn_00000564_00.pdf - Similar pages -

Professor Atran writes:
"When a person vows to avenge an insult or humiliation no matter the cost, even if it means losing his own life and shows that he means it with costly and hard-to-fake displays of preparation for attack then anyone planning an insult will think twice before acting. ... Revenge can give even the weak a better chance to survive in the long run."

Humiliation, through abuse of authority, is acknowledged as a source of motivation toward violence. Froggie, perhaps you can think of something relevant in your own past - not meaning that you acted on your dark thoughts.

Political organisations exploit the motive of humiliation and provide the means and opportunity. This exploitation is not limited to Islamist militant organisations, nor does it inevitably lead to suicide bombings or enlistment in insurgent resistance forces.

I am satisfied that Israeli government policy and complicity allow this particular sick, sad injustice to prevail.

For anyone to justify cruel, stupid, perverted behaviour by border guards, by saying "the border between Israel and Gaza is a war zone" puts them on the same level as the person who gets away with filthy behaviour in an official capacity.

Sir Ivor.... you are looking at the microscopic and trying to justify the MACROcroscopic.

Im genuinely curious... how would you react to some family near you, who wrote a declaration "Sir Ivor's family exists and will continue to exist until WE obliterate them"?

I suppose you would call the police ? but then.. they would say "Until a crime is committed, we can't do anything" So..you go back and endure the constant stone throwing..the molotif cocktails hurled at your house.. of course you can't prove it was 'them' so.. the police still cannot help.

In Israels case.. do you feel that the HAMAS CHARTER to obliterate Israel is something which can be negated simply by a few stories about strip searching?

If you do think that, in the light of the Holocaust, then..old son.. get help... real quick, because you need it.

The cry of every critic of the war there SHOULD be..

HAMAS..WHEN will you renounce your genocidal charter?

But Ivory.. they could not do that, because it is a very theologically correct document Islamically speaking. They would not do it..because Islam does call for that. You doubt me? read surah 9
Read especially verses 29 and 30

http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm

You might like to have a peek at the very first verse too.. yep.. and then compare the Hamas 'declaration that the cease fire is over' with what Mohammad 'declared' in that chapter.

If ur really adventurous.. you could look at verse 5

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Notice how it works ? "We will kill you wherever we find you.. OH..WAIT.. If you become Muslims.. ok.. then we won't kill you"

Surrender is the best and only option that 'Palestinians' must take:

The Palestinians need to surrender in the current conflict, for fighting an unwinnable war only raises the costs their long-suffering people face.
Latest article on the 'Palestinians' from Sir Wellington Boote:

http://www.henrythornton.com/article.asp?article_id=5571

dear poly carper

your story about throwing fire bombs is an absurdity[as usual]

for a start if they were being thrown by a jew and i exterminated all the jews , who then changed their name to philisteens .or fatah, or hammaS ,your still advocating destroying A NAME

how many times has the name of you enemy changed
first [in recent history] it was the natzies, then the egyptians , the jordanians,the lebonese , fatah, haMAS, THE NAMES SEEM TO CHANGE BUT YOUR ACTS OF MURDER DONT

NO MATTER HOW MANY NAMES
YOU WILL BE ATTACKING A NEW NAME NEXT YEAR

the only constant is your govt creates a new enemy[name]
next iran right

then the greeks then russia
get it?
then the xtian GOYS
got it?

quote>>Notice how it works ?
"We will kill you wherever we find you''

yes we are getting it

Estimating the rights and wrongs of the Gaza invasion is like walking into a bar-room brawl and trying to decide which drunkard is responsible for all the black eyes and broken limbs.

Given that the Middle East is awash with violent religious cults and is stuck in a mindset that pre-dates the Middle Ages, I guess the region gets what it deserves - just like the drunkards with the black eyes and broken limbs.

Precision bombing,kills how many children?,poor kids victims of a terrorist Air Force,and no one it seems cares

Uncle Pete wrote:

"Surrender is the best and only option that 'Palestinians' must take:"

It is a common mistake here to assume that "Palestinians", with or without quotes, are a side to this conflict.

The poor Palestinians are incidental casualties, and this is very sad, because if only Israel and the Palestinians were left alone in the Middle-East, they would have resolved their minor differences long ago.

What we actually see today is how Iran, having vowed to obliterate Israel no matter what it takes (due to Israel's former close ties and support of the Shah!), is using both Hezbollah to the north of Israel and Hamas to its south, as its armed proxies. The weapons. money and instructions are sent from Teheran, causing Israel to suffer - and the Palestinians even more.

In past decades, it was the Arab, Suni countries that in their wish to obliterate Israel pushed the Palestinians into disaster after disaster, but in the 21st century, Arab countries (such as Syria, Saudi-Arabia and Lebanon) have become more rational, have grown out of such silly ideologies and are ready for peace with Israel. However, their place was taken up by Iran that dreams to control the whole middle east, and indeed, the whole world.

The poor Palestinians are not in a position to surrender because Hamas are pointing their guns at them and already killed many Palestinians that hinted at possibly opposing them. Once Hamas is gone, Palestinians need not surrender either, because nobody wishes them ill. On the contrary - once Israel is no longer in danger, it will gladly and peacefully give the Palestinians all they want.

For Israel, Palestinians are brothers: in fact, many of them are descendents of Jews that continued to sit on their land, but were forced to convert to Islam, mainly in the 8th century due to the high taxes imposed on non-muslims. Israel will happily welcome them back into its fold (I don't mean religiously - they can remain muslim if they so wish, it doesn't matter), but only once they do not foolishly side with its enemies.

I wonder if anyone has got any backing or correction of the following item please?

War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields

by Michel Chossudovsky, January 8, 2009

The military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israeli Forces bears a direct relation to the control and ownership of strategic offshore gas reserves.

This is a war of conquest. Discovered in 2000, there are extensive gas reserves off the Gaza coastline.

British Gas (BG Group) and its partner, the Athens based Consolidated Contractors International Company (CCC) owned by Lebanon's Sabbagh and Koury families, were granted oil and gas exploration rights in a 25 year agreement signed in November 1999 with the Palestinian Authority.

The rights to the offshore gas field are respectively British Gas (60 percent); Consolidated Contractors (CCC) (30 percent); and the Investment Fund of the Palestinian Authority (10 percent). (Haaretz, October 21, 2007).

The PA-BG-CCC agreement includes field development and the construction of a gas pipeline.(Middle East Economic Digest, Jan 5, 2001).

The BG licence covers the entire Gazan offshore marine area, which is contiguous to several Israeli offshore gas facilities. (See Map below). It should be noted that 60 percent of the gas reserves along the Gaza-Israel coastline belong to Palestine.

The BG Group drilled two wells in 2000: Gaza Marine-1 and Gaza Marine-2. Reserves are estimated by British Gas to be of the order of 1.4 trillion cubic feet, valued at approximately 4 billion dollars. These are the figures made public by British Gas. The size of Palestine's gas reserves could be much larger.

Who Owns the Gas Fields

The issue of sovereignty over Gaza's gas fields is crucial. From a legal standpoint, the gas reserves belong to . .

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680

Thousands of pro-Israel supporters have gathered in London's Trafalgar Square to call for an end to the violence in the Middle East.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7822656.stm

Canadian Jewish women protesting against Gaza War, Arrested after occupying the Israeli Consulate
http://rainbowwarrior2005.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/canadian-jewish-women-protesting-against-gaza-war-arrested-after-occupying-the-israeli-consulate/

Australian Jews protest against Israel's action
MORE than 100 Australian Jews, including two award-winning novelists and a former federal cabinet minister, have signed a statement condemning Israel's siege of Gaza, heightening tensions within the local Jewish community over the violence.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/05/1231003936981.html

Thousands of Israelis protest against the war in Gaza
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=mc9DN2Oi0-w

Yes ASymeonakis, what it shows is that Jewish people are democratic and believe in free speech.
How many demonstrations or "speaking out" about Hamas rocketing Israeli towns have you seen from the Palestinian side?
There have been a few references in the press regarding Palestinians who blame Hamas for all the recent violence and who condemn them, but there have been no demonstrations against Hamas actions.
Ever wonder why that is?
I think it is pretty obvious that Hamas retribution for any demonstration against them by the people of Gaza would probably be worse than anything they get from the Israelis.
After all, Hamas throw their political opponents, Fatah, off tall buildings.

PALESTINIAN FERTILITY and the CRISIS.

Given that most of Gaza depends on foreign aid for its very day to day survival....can anyone suggest what motivation there is for Palestinians to have HUGE families?
-Nazir Rayan (hamas leader recently killed) 12 children 4 wives
-Ismael Haniya (Hamas Leader) 10 children.

It seems that wherever you look in Gaza you see 'children'.

Does it not strike others as rather irresponsible to be having such large families when the means of supporting them is not there.. rather.. they live by international aid handouts alone.

President Houari Boumedienne had led Algeria to independence,

he stood in the General Assembly of the United Nations in 1974 and declared, "One day, millions of men will leave the southern Hemisphere to burst into the northern one. But not as friends.
They will burst in to conquer.

They will conquer it by populating it with their children.

Victory will come to us from the wombs of our women."

ARAFAT:

Authority president Yasser Arafat, who coined the adage that the Palestinians' most potent weapon was the womb

Sergio DellaPergola, a professor of population studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and one of Israel's leading demographers. While the fertility rates in Israel are high for a developed country -- on average there are 2.7 children per family -- they do not come close to those in Gaza, where the average is around 5.5 children per family. "We are almost at the point of demographic parity,"

THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY should ensure a 1 couple 1 child policy for Gaza until they have the economic means to cope with higher fertility rates..... (works for China.)

MEANS.. the IC can simply demand policies be implemented on which aid it dependant. Australian government seems to like this approach when it comes to curriculum and religious schools.

Polycarp, regarding your post of 12 January 2009 1:54:55 PM:
I am pointing out one specific, long-standing, widespread pattern of stupid, cruel and insidiously violent behaviour: the sexual harassment and abuse of Palestinian women and children by Israel's border guards.

It is a potent example of a more general pattern of cause and effect. A person who has been humiliated, or has seen his loved ones humiliated may wish for revenge. Political and other groups, can provide the means and the opportunity for acting out the motive, thus exploiting this urge for revenge by encouragement, approval and public admiration for acts which are criminal - or justifiable acts of war, depending on one's point of view.

Many thoughtful observers have provided numerous examples of IDF force members humiliating Palestinians, over the years.

Polycarp, you don’t need a science degree to have some grasp of cause and effect. Little causes may deliver big effects. The computer monitor you are looking at right now depends on transistor amplification of signals through very, very tiny current changes. Electronic circuits and computer monitors are far more predictable than neurons and raging humans, but the micro does indeed explain the macro, in more areas than you seem willing to admit.

How would you feel, as a grown man, if you were ordered to drop your trousers in front of your daughter, or granddaughter or other child relative? Palestinian men are also sexually humiliated by the IDF.

Maybe you are just happy to tip-tap along your keyboard, using alleged Islamic texts to justify sexual abuse by the IDF, as well as their indiscriminate murder in war zones - calling it "collateral damage".

Polycarp, how do I tell you apart from the religious zealots you say you condemn? Does your special (but so far unexplained) status give you a special license to spread hatred and mistrust?

Read the story below again, and try to connect the dots:

http://ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/childabuse.html

Terrorism and Collective Punishment
An If Americans Knew Investigation:
Humiliation and Child Abuse at Israeli Borders & Airports
Strip-Searching Children
Alison Weir
CounterPunch
March 15, 2007

Bren,

In response to your article, 2 wrongs don't make it right.

True that Israeli civilians suffered daily with the Hamas rockets,
but don't ask the average citizen to put a different lens when judging collective punishment and bombing palestinian civilians murdering close to 300 children and 100 mothers in 2 weeks.

In addition, I think Israel lost the mind and hearts with the average citizen in most countries outside the arab and muslim street.

Someone should have studied the consequences of the action.

Peace,

For anyone that's interested the following
website gives an insight as to how
this conflict may be resolved:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Froman

Or alternatively you can google:

Menachem Froman

He's a very interesting man. A Hassidic Jew,
A Rabbi,who lives in a settlement on the West Bank,
and has been a moderator between the Palestinians
and the Jews for quite a few years.

He believes that Peace is possible.

It's worth a read.

As I've said previously, we desperately need
voices of reason from both sides at this
time.

Hanna O'Connor,

Regarding the ideas of Michel Chossudovsky about Gaza's natural gas reserves:

I have no idea what interest Michel has to present Israel as total fools, unless he himself is: wage a war costing about 10 billion dollars to recover gas worth 4 billion and make a profit of around 2 billions? this even before considering the uncompensatable costs in human lives!

Israel went to war to protect its citizens. Period.
But if you like to discuss the economics of the situation, you must understand that it is in Israel's interest to have Gaza prosper.
On the other hand, it is in the interest of Hamas to keep Gazans poor and hungry.

At this very moment, Israel supplies Gaza with humanitarian aid. It has been doing so before and during this war, but do you think that ordinary Gazans are going to see any of it? no! Hamas takes it all to itself and its supporters.

Before the war, Hamas made a special target of the very border crossings from which Gaza received food, medicine, petrol and practically everything else it needed, just so that when the crossings were blown up and Israel could not deliver the goods without risking the lives of its citizens and soldiers or have them kidnapped, Hamas could cry out propaganda about the "blockade". This is how much Hamas cares for Gazan Palestinians and their welfare!

People who are well fed and provisioned, people who got jobs, those who have a life, are much less likely to join Islamic cults of terror and death. Those who are desperate, those who have nothing to lose, tend to listen to cynical promises and dream about potential rewards in heaven.

Israel prefers happy Gazans, and it is no big deal for it to sacrifice some offshore gas-fields to achieve it. If you only think of the amount of petrol needed to keep the Israeli air-force in the air for the last 2 weeks, you will quickly reach the conclusion that such stories about greed-for-gas are nonsensical fluff.

The Arab nations initiated four wars against Israel:
· 1948 War of Independence
· 1956 Sinai War
· 1967 Six Day War
· 1973 Yom Kippur War
Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war, the Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured.

I think it is a long bow to draw that the Palestinian grievances and suicide bombers stem from being humiliated by border guards strip searches.

Perhaps what is more of a humiliation is that Israel, with a population of about 8 million, has defeated Arab nations with much bigger populations, especially when it is those nations that launched war against Israel.

However, it is time, don’t you think, for the Palestinians to realize that they would be better off to move on and get over this humiliation, and try to live in peace with Israel, instead of electing Islamist gangster terrorists like Hamas?

They would probably find a huge increase in their standard of living. There are plenty of States and City-States with a greater population density than Gaza, who nevertheless do very well economically and don’t sponge off the International community. continued...

It is difficult to argue objectively any virtue of war when the argument of women and Children are killed – but the emotive reasoning of reporting these things and not actually stating the circumstances of Civilian – Women and children casualties , - used as shields to protect the Weapons firing position; purely to gain the Useless Idiot emotional opinion.
The Useless Idiots or “U N”, well. A whole new level of psychology at work here , that’s why the Acronym of “U N “ -Useless Idiots is authentic in it acclaimed position.

If you actually think about it for a moment and invoke some philosophical perspectives;
Who said this:-
“We can forgive them for murdering our children, but we cannot forgive them for making us murder their children.”- In context.
And as far as Sexual harassment of women by border guards; Fairdinkum Survivor, you are actually talking about the Middle East – are you?
An Ideology that has women stoned to death for being raped, and “Women “- whom are purely used as human weapons procreation.
You would do well proselytizing your concerns in a Moslem Democracy I think; and for a mere moment, you can realize how ridicules you notion is- and yet for a mere moment - I realise , No you won't.

"History cannot be deceived, and
it is impossible to conceal something
from it forever."
- Anatoli Kuznetsov.

"Do you want democracy? No problem.
Either abandon the greater land of
Israel, to the last settlement and
outpost, or give full citizenship
and voting rights to everyone, including
Arabs.

The result, of course, will be that
those who did not want a Palestinian
state alongside us will have one in
our midst, via the ballot box. The
prime minister should present the choices
forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy.
Settlements, or hope for both parties."
(Avraham Burg, 15 Sept. 2003).

SOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE SUPPORT FOR TERRORISM.

http://www.sa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1876&Itemid=125

From their web site. (Oh how I pray the AFP are monitoring them)

1/ Praise for genocidal Hamas.

The militant spirit that animates the millions who follow Hezbollah and Hamas is WHOLLY POSITIVE. It embodies the defiant anti-imperialist determination to resist that has dogged the imperial overlords of the Middle East for almost 100 years.

(COMMENT: Err... yes.. positive like 'Muslims must kill the Jews' in Hamas Charter! If I'm not mistaken..to say such things is a crime no?)

2/ MORAL SUPPORT FOR TERRORISM.

<But it is impossible to defeat US imperialism (and therefore Israel) by military means alone.>

3/ MORAL SUPPORT FOR TERRORISM -PERIOD.

We in Australia will not play the decisive role in creating such new organisations. Nonetheless it will not be an insignificant contribution IF WE CAN BUILT A SOCIALIST MOVEMENT HERE THAT CAN OFFER SOLIDARITY AND SUPPORT TO THE NEXT GENERATION OF MILITANTS IN THE ARAB WORLD whose political consciousness is being formed by the horrific injustices and heroic resistance that characterise the Middle East today.

TRUE COLORS OF AUSTRALIAN SOCIALISTS. "Militant/Terrorism supporters"

Froggie “However, it is time, don’t you think, for the Palestinians to realize that they would be better off to move on and get over this humiliation, and try to live in peace with Israel, instead of electing Islamist gangster terrorists like Hamas?”

Wholly agree with your entire post.

The next thing is they will demand someone give an an official apology, a “Sorry”

but somehow I cannot see any Israeli politicians falling for that scam.

It is only spineless Aussie spruikers who go around declaring “sorry” for supposed wrongs inflicted upon the ancestors of current minorities. Real Aussie politicians had the courage of their convictions and declined at every turn (good on ya Johnny).

Polycarp “Socialist Alternative” is a mouth piece for the dilitant underperformer possessing just enough sense to understand they lack the where-with-all to achieve in the main stream, so they pursue a counter cultural agenda, in which reward from ones own honest effort and ability is divorced.

It would not be so bad if they actually had an ‘alternative’. The problem is, what they promote has been seen to fail and fail and fail again.
It is entire logical and reasonable, therefore, that they would support terrorist organizations like hamas, with it is counter-cultural, counter productive and well-spring of excuses for the mayhem and murder in which all personal accountability is lost.

Bren Carlill's article is titled Hypocrisy and the War in Gaza. Bren complains about hypocrisy in public commentary, and compares the difference in fatalities in the Congo in the past 10 years with deaths attributable to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict over the last 60 years or so. He sharply criticises Greg Barns, who wrote an earlier On Line Opinion piece (West Weak While Palestinians Pay - 6 January).
Bren is "a writer and policy analyst at the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council." The aijac.org.au website says, "The Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council (AIJAC) is the premier public affairs organisation for the Australian Jewish community."

A visit to gregbarns.com identifies him as an "Australian writer and political commentator who has previously advised Australian governments on policy."

What is hypocrisy? A Macquarie Concise Dictionary defines it as "(1) The act of pretending to have a character or beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not possess. (2) Pretence of virtue or piety; false goodness."

Are states, such as Israel, or non-state actors, such as the PA or Hamas, or AIJAC capable of hypocrisy? I am saying no. Hypocrisy is a human attribute, and organisations are no more human than Greek Gods, although we do mistakenly anthropomorphise them from time to time.

Where is the hypocritical behaviour? Where are examples of Greg Barns' or Bren Carlill's contradictory behaviour and conflicted values? I find none.

While AIJAC and the US AIPAC are not capable of hypocrisy, they are “public faces”. How does it look to reasonable and unreasonable people, when Colin Rubenstein, CEO of AIJAC, asserts that
"For the civilian deaths, as for the conflict on the whole, Hamas bears full responsibility."
http://www.aijac.org.au/?id=articles&_action=showArticleDetails&articleID=5562

Unreasonable people either agree or disagree, without further consideration; a reasonable person does not mistake a debating proposition for the truth.

AIJAC leadership should know that reasonable people worldwide would not support the Israeli war on Gaza without examining current IDF violations of IHL; or past history, right back to 1948.

Near the end of my tether, have become truly ashamed at the way not only concerning the national media but the way our OLO has been hidng the real truth behind the ME Arab Israeli problem.
It is so interesting that it has taken the chief journalist of our only newspaper, the WEST AUSTRALIAN to allow in letter s from veterans revealing the historical happening that caused the melee certainly now getting bloody worse than ever.
Talking to the chief journo’ it seems that the three letters from three different old-timers over the last week or so, reveal that the major historical mistake was not so much the break-up between the UK and the US, but that the US after arrogantly ousting the British, failed to carry out the UK plan to grant equal amounts of Palestine to both Jews and Arabs.
Further in a fourth letter from John H May of Collie, he goes on to say -
‘That when one considers the trillions of dollars on arming Israel up to this time, just ten percent of that could have created a Palestinian paradise for both participants along with its subsequent influence on future world peace’.
Finally, I’d suggest that not only our not very gallant OLO’s look to their media and historical facts better, but might say the same about the management.
Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA.

No takers on the rest of the speech?
Well; -
We can forgive them for killing our children – but we cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children-
There will never be peace with Arabs until they learn to love their children, and love them more than they hate us.

And that is about the central crux of the whole entire epic , and not just isolated to Israel.

And there lay the axiom of the motivation of Ideology, they despise and hate success with absolute psychopathic passion.

And that is where the Socialists of any Ideological Idiocy join the band wagon of haters; They are far too lazy to achieve anything at all at their own abillities ,other than polifiration of propaganda , it is easier to steal others property and efforts to live off - in turn,whome their own hoasts they so despise.

Like so many others around the world, I know very little of the Israeli Knesset. A Finnish news release paints a gloomy picture - see below.

What little I do know suggests to me that it is weak and rudderless, a tiny sailboat of democracy, easily blown about by the winds of geopolitics. That it is unable to navigate a safe path, because the crew is made up of hostile and self-absorbed factions, some of which support what I would call very stupid, careless policies.

Perhaps Bren Carlill or someone else can direct me to a site that offers a more edifying view of Israeli democracy in action.

http://www.ksml.fi/mielipide/keskustelu/demokraattinen-israel/333485

"Demokraattinen" Israel
Democracy in a panic
By Avirama Golan
Tags: Israel elections, Israel News

”Even if the Supreme Court overturns the unfortunate decision by the [Israeli] Central Elections Committee to disqualify United Arab List-Ta'al and Balad, enabling them to compete in next month's general election, the damage has already been done and Israeli democracy has been exposed in all its fear and panic.

” … sponsors of the ban on the Arab parties are Avigdor Lieberman and his party, Yisrael Beiteinu, which supports moving Israel's Arab citizens and their communities to the other side of the border and making their civil rights conditional on proof of loyalty, and which enthusiastically supported former Kach leader Baruch Marzel and the head of the extremist World Headquarters to Save the People and Land of Israel (SOS Israel), Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe ...”

Have become truly ashamed at the way not only concerning the national media but the way our OLO has not been using more dinkum historical channels to find the real truth behind the ME Arab Israeli problem.

It is so interesting that it has taken the chief journalist of our only newspaper, the WEST AUSTRALIAN to allow in letter s from veterans revealing the historical stuff-up that caused the melee certainly now getting bloody worse than ever.

Talking to the chief journo’ it seems that the three letters from three different old-timers over the last week or so, reveal that the major historical mistake was not so much the break-up not long after WW2 between a victorious US run by an inexperienced Truman, and a penniless UK with its heroic Churchill ousted by Labour, the arrogant Yanks simply ousted the Brits favouring the Jews rather than the Palestinians who had every right to be angry - even more so when the UK focused International plan to grant equal amounts of Palestine to both Jews and Arabs, was thrown out by Truman.

Further in a fourth letter from John H May of Collie, he goes on to say -

‘That when one considers the trillions of dollars in arming Israel up to this time, just ten percent of that could have created a Palestinian paradise for both participants along with its subsequent influence on future world peace’ causing a possible WW3.

Finally, I’d suggest that not only our not very gallant OLO’s look more to genuine academic historical accounts and less to Murdoch media spin - and might say the same about our management.

Weakening Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA

GDay Bush bred , I don’t think you are going anywhere for a while yet.

I would not be too concerned about the amount of money to arm up Israel , the threat to Israel is very real , It is difficult to substantiate the finances that was spent on weapons for Israel , could have been spent on the Palestinian State , Yes , from an Ideological perspective , but when the Peoples of such a state are not willing to do anything that would make themselves independent of trouble or Tribal warring factions , then all the money to date , and all that was given in the past , only provides weapons , and larger bank balances for the instigators of this whole ridicules conflict.

It could have been argued quite successfully that K9 Rudd and his cheque book extravaganza with tax payer’s money , handing it around like it grows on trees , provided many terrorists with the funds to arm themselves back up .
You do not actually think that any of the funds , goes to help a single sole in the Palestine or Afghanistan?
We just have to accept that the ability of Ideologues to assess the factual situation of what happens ; is only a lesson in absolute feel good freak show and guilt mongering.
Deploying a sophist approach only creates more paradigms in a thought process , thus adds, and accelerates a whole new complexity of issues that never could have existed – The premise that is presented as an argument is a falsehood and fabricated – Marxism is that ;- a continued trade mark of Leftoid Psychopaths- a trail of destruction where ever it lurks- like a grim reaper looking for more victims to feast off.

But, All, my arguments are based on real history, mate, so as a historian I am feeling real nasty over it.

I guess it's the only way to be for one who has got historical Honours.

Really got shocked about it myself becasue it was mostly about learning what colnial bastards we were, basd on the 18-19th Century Tea Economy.

Yet going by the way America has spent a flamin' fortune just paying the Israelies to knock out the Arabs, has really got us historians wondering what is the worst, Global Warming or Western White Rhoguery.

As Gazan hospitals and
morgues fill beyond capacity... it doesn't
take extraordinary analytical skills to
appreciate that when the White House
blames what's currently happening on
"terrorists" in Gaza, and when moderate
Arab states adopt an accomodationist position
pleasing the US and Israel, a profound Arab/Islamic
radicalization grows.

New 'terrorists' are being born as innocents in
Gaza are getting ripped to death by American-made
Hellfire missiles, dispatched toward fleshy targets
by Israeli pilots.

This counter-productive outcome of Israel's
action makes one suspect that there must be
other motives at play here judged by Tel Aviv
to be worth the risk.

However it's a high price to pay, and should
be universally condemned in the strongest
possible terms, and stopped at once.

I marked a student's assignment once, in which the student proposed the only solution to the Arab/Israeli conflict: pack up all the Jews and ship them to Siberia. They want room, well there's plenty of room there. I think, though, that the 'pack 'em up and ship 'em off' approach has been tried before when dealing with Jews.

Who's to know what would have happened if Palestine had been partitioned according to the British plan? I reckon there would be no Palestine left - it would have been taken over by one Arab state or another. Israel may have been more successful, or it may have failed altogether. The reality is, despite their best intentions, the Western powers botched it up and now Israel and Palestine have to face the cleanup.

I should add that I don't support the Siberia Solution, but the student was adamant.

Get this.
Palestine did not exist until the 1920's. It was part of the Ottoman empire.
Even then it did not exist as a separate and independent state.
The name Palestine only refers to a geographical area.
The inhabitants were mostly Arabs until the mid 19th century.There has been a constant presence of the Jews in the land of Israel. The Jewish people, who originally inhabited the land and lived there for the longest period of time, returned to it from the 1850's onwards and their population grew as the idea of a Jewish homeland took hold.
About 40% of the world's Jews now live in Israel.
The only reason the majority of Jews were not in Israel was because the Jews were expelled from Palestine by the Romans to form the Jewish diaspora.
Now, they are returning to the land of Israel, and I applaud this. I am agnostic, so don't accuse me of religious affiliation. I just think it is time that the Jews had their homeland returned to them, which has belonged to them for thousands of years, well before the Arabs were there.
Now, the Arabs are trying again to dispossess the Jews of their land. But they are failing utterly. They should accept that Israel exists, has a right to exist and will continue to exist irrespective of what they think.
If they were clever, they would choose co-existence, and thereby share in the fruits of the creative genius of the Jewish people.
Unfortunately, they have been captured by the Islamic death cult, which will continue to lead them to disaster.

So many endless posts about history - what happened and "what would have happened if" (something a real historian never does). Why can't you keep it simple?

People in Israel have a life. They have homes, jobs, families, freedom and everything normal as we are used to in Australia.

People in Gaza have no life, because they are hijacked by a murderous cult which has the interest of keeping them poor, hungry, miserable and afraid.

The people that have a life just want to live peacefully. The people who do not have any other life entertain themselves by shooting rockets at the people that have a life, wishing they will not have a life either. When the people that have a life ask the people that do not have a life "what do you want, how can we help you?", the only answer they get is "we want to kill you, that's all. If you want to help, allow us to bring in more deadly weapons so we can do it sooner".

So - the people that have a life have no choice but to fight back, doing whatever is necessary to stop being fired at.

People that have a life are not eager to lose it, so they do their best to avoid casualties. So, Foxy, if someone across the ocean comes and offers them more sophisticated weapons that reduce the number of casualties, then of course they say "Yes, thank you".

And that's a summary of the whole story, which goes on for nearly 100 years.

Yes, Otokonoko, I acknowledge that there are some Jews with the land-virus, but they are a minority, they do not represent Israel. As far as I am concerned you can go ahead and send them to Syberia, but do remember that overall Israel is just a normal country with normal people, don't be deluded that removing them will satisfy Islamic appetite: there will come a time when they say "oh, those land-hungry Australians, send them off to Syberia".

Yuytsyu says
"People in Gaza have no life, because they are hijacked by a murderous cult which has the interest of keeping them poor, hungry, miserable and afraid."

This is the sort of simpleminded tripe I was expected to believe about Soviet Union, back in the late 1950's. Then, of course, it was the murderous Russians, represented by the mad, shoe-pounding Nikita Kruschev, screaming "We will bury you!" at horrified American diplomats. I don't remember if it was televised. I do remember that my social science teacher just couldn't understand why everyone didn't try to leave Russia, and live in a free country.

Yuyutsu, I don't know where you get these wierd explanations about Gazans and Hamas. Do you make them up, or do you read them? Do you live anywhere near Gaza?

Here is link to an article in a moderate and reasonably impartial US newspaper which might offer you an overview of the larger geopolitical landscape:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0112/p09s01-coop.html

The first paragraph says much. The rest of the article is well worth anyone's time, unless their mind is set in concrete.

"An inside story of how the US magnified Palestinian suffering

By Norman H. Olsen and Matthew N. Olsen
from the January 12, 2009 edition

Christian Science Monitor

"Cherryfield, Maine; and Washington - A million and a half Palestinians are learning the hard way that democracy isn't so good if you vote the wrong way. In 2006, they elected Hamas when the US and Israel wanted them to support the more-moderate Fatah. As a result, having long ago lost their homes and property, Gazans have endured three years of embargo, crippling shortages of food and basic necessities, and total economic collapse."

Do read on.

Gday Bush bread ; you have my attention , but you must know what you mentioned about the Arab Genocide is but Fiction ; and must sound awfully familiar- indeed if it was the case , then do you really think it would not be the case , and it had failed quite dismally . Simply put – absolute convolute bovine excrement. and a non event.

And a point you make as a historian, you say Genocide of the Arabs; well that by default is an admission that a greater Genocide had taken place for there to be Arabs- Saudi Arabia is the home of the Arab? So I must prompt the question of when the word Arab is used is it in Context of Race Demography or Ideological description of antitheses Culture? ie , Islam?
And the automatic denial of Assyrian’s- Egyptians- Iranians – Sumerians – Talmud- Chaldean etc – they never existed before Arab Culture ? Or just another Historical oversight?

The Ottoman Empire was not Arab, although they adopted the Arab Antitheses Culture- Sacking of Constantinople ring a bell – Anatolia – aka now Turkey. They were Hittites at some point in history, were they not?

Look for The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem , his allegiances , and of course , how many people know that ; Yasser Arafat (Tiger Arafat) was the Grand Mufti’s Nephew?
Why do people not know this?

, It was the Secret services of Britain that recruited Local Moslem groups in Palestine and elsewhere to attack the newly formed Israel, after the surrender of Germany, this group you may now realise was the genesis of Al Qaida, put simply, when the political conflict became too heated, M I 5 disbanded funding, and On sold it to the newly forming CIA, Who in turn had NO idea of what the British had just done or what it was they just inherited. ,

Thanks to Post Modernism and Socialism in definition, is The intellectual equivalent of the Nabowla virus applied to the human consciousness and Psychology ;, that is the attack points.

Yuyutsu, I think you misinterpreted my post - or, perhaps, missed the whole bit about not supporting the Siberia Solution. I don't think the student had any idea at all of how to solve the problem, but then again very few people do. It seems that the two groups have such contrasting aims that we cannot make one happy without devastating the other. Besides, we (as in we, the west) have messed around with other people's lives so much that you'd think we'd have learnt to back off by now. Every time we do something good, it seems to have a bad side-effect. But if we let go of the helm, what will happen?

"It seems that the two groups have such contrasting aims that we cannot make one happy without devastating the other"

Only two groups? only two aims?

You are right, Otokonoko, that it is not possible to make everyone happy simultaneously without devastating others (BTW, this is true not only in the middle-east).

To solve the middle-east conflict, one must first realize that it is not between "Jews" and "Palestinians". I often find on OLO how the attitude towards Israelis is coloured by thinking of them as "Jews" - just as the attitude towards Palestinians is coloured by thinking of them as "Muslims". While technically correct, most Israelis and most Palestinians do not give as much importance to their religion - while there are religious habits (and why not?), they have much more in common then in separation: most of them are ordinary people who just want to live and have a good and peaceful life.

There are however, on both sides, fanatics that would not accept normality, those for which being a "Jew" or a "Muslim" means more than life. If you want to help towards a solution, you must equally and delicately support the silent majorities against the crazy extremist minorities. It is a fine art though, any wrong move can throw the baby out with the bath water.

Unfortunately, too many contributors bring into the discussion foreign, unrelated political objectives that have nothing to do with the real situation in the middle-east and the welfare of its moderate and reasonable inhabitants.

In the 1920s, among their final acts as victors in World War I, the British and French created the states that now define the Middle East out of the ashes of the empire of their defeated Turkish adversary.

In a region that the Ottoman Turks had controlled for hundreds of years, Britain and France drew the boundaries of the new states, Syria Lebanon and Iraq. Previously, the British had promised the Jewish Zionists that they could establish a "national home" in a portion of what remained of the area, which was known as the Palestine Mandate.

But in 1921 the British separated 80 percent of the Mandate, east of the Jordan, and created the Arab kingdom of "Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah, who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian Peninsula and lacked a seat of power. Abudllah’s tribe was Hashemite, while the vast majority of Abdullah’s subjects were Palestinian Arabs.

What was left of the original Palestine Mandate – between the west bank of the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea – had been settled by Arabs and Jews. Jews, in fact, had lived in the area continuously for 3,700 years, even after the Romans destroyed their state in Judea in AD 70. Arabs became the dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century AD as a result of the Muslim invasions. The Arabs were largely nomads who had no distinctive language or culture to separate them from other Arabs.

It is a little more indepth than good and naught people . Fairdinkum.

Should not be a surprise to anyone; The White Phosphorus is a Hoax; if this is humour, what does the media do when it is serious.
White Phosphorous has not be manufactured for weapons use in about 28 years,Probably much longer , although stocks where depleted 25 years ago I should have said ;- the only phosphorous that is used in modern times , is on tracer shells - the ammunition that lights up whilst in travel; hardly a mistake.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m50381&hd=&size=1&l=e

White Phosphorus burns and fires are reliably documented

See, for example:

- = + = -

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Israeli-39phosphorous-shells39-incinerate-1000s.4883418.jp

"Israeli 'phosphorous shells' incinerate 1,000s of tons of UN food as Gaza starves

Published Date: 16 January 2009
By Ben Lynfield and Ibrahim Barzak

ISRAELI shells set ablaze a food warehouse at UN headquarters in Gaza yesterday, destroying tons of emergency rations intended for needy Gaza civilians, a senior UN official said.

A pall of black smoke rose from the UN compound, visible across Gaza City. Flour spilled on the ground and mixed with soot as Palestinian firefighters tried to douse the flames.

"The main warehouse was badly damaged by what appeared to be white phosphorus shells," UN humanitarian affairs chief John Holmes said at a news briefing in New York.

"Those on the ground don't have any doubt that's what they were. If you were looking for confirmation, that looks like it to me." The compound belongs to the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (Unwra).

The rights group Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using white phosphorus, which can create smoke screens or mark targets but also makes a devastating incendiary weapon.

Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said the military fired artillery shells at the UN compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location, a version of events John Ging, director of Unwra in Gaza, rejected as "nonsense"

Mr Ging said Israeli shells first hit a courtyard filled with refugees, then struck garages and the UN's main warehouse, sending thousands of tons of food aid up in flames. Later, fuel supplies ignited, sending a thick plume of smoke into the air.

"It's a total disaster for us," said Mr Ging, adding that the UN had warned the Israeli its shelling put the compound in danger.

- end of quote-
any and all may read more by Googling "white phosphorus" on google news

True, Yuyutsu, that there are more than two viewpoints, more than two groups and more than two aims involved in this conflict. And certainly there are many for whom the conflict is more about staying alive from one day to the next than it is about eliminating the enemy - I am sure that, for many, the idea of having enemies is absurd. Just today I was reading a National Geographic article in which a Jewish archaeologist lamented (or, more accurately, hinted at lamenting) the end of an age when he would visit Palestinian villages now deemed off-limits to him. In those villages, he would visit and dine with friends. I am sure that, for him, the elimination of Palestinians would be a great tragedy; likewise, his friends in those villages would view the elimination of Israel and their Israeli friends as a tragedy. It serves as a reminder that not all Palestinians and not all Israelis see the other side as 'the enemy'. Thanks for making me think!

Harking back to the title of the piece which stimulated so much comment, "Hypocrisy and the war in Gaza", a recent quote comes to my attention:

"Two weeks after the Sabbath opening of the assault, with much of Gaza
already pounded to rubble and the death toll approaching 1000, the
U.N. Agency UNRWA, on which most Gazans depend for survival, announced
that the Israeli military refused to allow aid shipments to Gaza,
saying that the crossings were closed for the Sabbath. To honor the
holy day, Palestinians at the edge of survival must be denied food and
medicine, while hundreds can be slaughtered by U.S. jet bombers and
helicopters."
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20316

Bren Carlill of AIJAC and all those publicists of AIPAC and a vast troup of fellow mummers can congratulate themselves on a well-planned war and publicity campaign which saw ordinary Palestinians vilified, maimed and murdered. No crocodile tears, please, I'm sick of all the hand-wringing and anguish about how Gazans forced the IDF to kill children and hospital patients.

The next big World Media Circus is now underway: the early days of a new US president, bearing a bright flame of hope. May it burn as brightly in one year, in four or eight years, and may some of this year's war criminals watch that flame from behind bars for many more years.

The quote is from Noam Chomsky.

I hope you know Sir vivor that the Chompa is a rebound anarchist, and that has been his coercive linguistics that elevated him to cult hood status ; - And an explanation about the U N , well the last tsunami that ravished Asia a few years ago , well you do realise that most of those Items , including ambulances , are still to this day on the docks to where they arrived ; That is The U N at work , or how it does not work to the point.

But I have tracked down an essay for you Bush bred , ; http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/loftus101106.htm

This is the one I mentioned before ; note how Covert things are , but are the best known secrets on the planet.
If you know the Google word

Googling Alls nomenclature:

"the Chompa":
85 hits along the lines of the item below:
"I really dug the Chompa noodles but Yak butter on my toast was just too strong for me.
www.cloudlam.com/china.php

"Chompa" appears to have been cooked up on the spot, to play the man (Chomsky) and not the argument (war crimes).

"coercive linguistics"
yielded weird stuff on obscure threads, including a peculiar rave, two years ago, by "All" - All might write A Wikipedia article on "coercive linguistics", for the sake (if not the outcome) of our edification.

As for publicist John Loftus' tale of the Muslim Brotherhood, CIA-Nazi connections and the Saudis, it is a red herring.

But can All be believed?
Regarding "The White Phosphorus is a Hoax", see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

"Israel has admitted – after mounting pressure – that its troops may have used white phosphorus shells in contravention of international law, during its three-week offensive in the Gaza Strip."

"One of the places most seriously affected by the use of white phosphorus was the main UN compound in Gaza City, which was hit by three shells on 15 January. The same munition was used in a strike on the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City the same day."

"Under review by Colonel Shai Alkalai is the use of white phosphorus by a reserve paratroop brigade in northern Israel."

"According to army sources the brigade fired up to 20 phosphorus shells in a heavily built-up area around the Gaza township of Beit Lahiya, one of the worst hit areas of Gaza."

If there is a hoax involving WP, it involves no lack of evidence of its use. Stupid, cruel villagers being allowed to masquerade as IDF soldiers, through the ignorance or complicity of their superiors, now there is the seed of a hoax, grown and blossomed into grotesque proportions.

How am I to distinguish these IDF soldiers from others? From those who burned and murdered in Lidice, or carpet-bombed over Guernica, or from Hamas soldiers doing their rocket science on Israeli civilians?

Am I supposed to distinguish them by the righteousness of their cause?

I do not know what more to say Si r Vivor , other than to make an observation that If White Phosphorous munitions were indeed used , especially in the commodity that you have stated , there would not be much of Israel or the Gaza or Jordan and parts of Egypt left . The death toll would be in the hundreds of millions.
There is some lobotomized moron, who clearly does not have a clue what they are talking about – and warn you not to be so naive, it is not healthy.

And the Chompa, well he could be categorised as a Sales Genius – that’s why he is Cashed up and loaded – he clearly knows and understands the nature of his new cult followers, he wrote – worded – and expressed exactly what they wanted to hear; He was and is a linguistic Professor you know; and these very same naive people, made the Chompa Very rich, and his cult following; - very poor – in wealth and Intellectual ability-
A good resource for entertainment thoug

All,

Are you really so confused about white phosphorus munitions? They are incindiary (cause fires). They aren't fissile or radioactive.

Why not read the Wikipedia article on WP?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon).

Bren Carlill's piece is about Hypocrisy. Here is more, from Noam Chomsky’s article, “Exterminate all the Brutes": Gaza 2009”
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20316

“Does Israel have peaceful short-term alternatives to the use of force in response to rockets from Gaza[?] One short-term alternative would be to accept a ceasefire. Sometimes Israel has done so, while instantly violating it. The most recent and currently relevant case is June 2008. The ceasefire called for opening the border crossings to "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza." Israel formally agreed, but immediately announced that it would not abide by the agreement and open the borders until Hamas released Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured by Hamas in June 2006.”

“The steady drumbeat of accusations about the capture of Shalit is, again, blatant hypocrisy, even putting aside Israel's long history of kidnapping. In this case, the hypocrisy could not be more glaring. One day before Hamas captured Shalit, Israeli soldiers entered Gaza City and kidnapped two civilians, the Muammar brothers, bringing them to Israel to join the thousands of other prisoners held there, almost 1000 reportedly without charge. Kidnapping civilians is a far more serious crime than capturing a soldier of an attacking army, but it was barely reported in contrast to the furor over Shalit. And all that remains in memory, blocking peace, is the capture of Shalit, another reflection of the difference between humans and two-legged [Palestinian] beasts. Shalit should be returned - in a fair prisoner exchange.”

“It was after the capture of Shalit that Israel's unrelenting military attack against Gaza passed from merely vicious to truly sadistic. But it is well to recall that even before his capture, Israel had fired more than 7,700 shells at northern Gaza after its September withdrawal, eliciting virtually no comment.”

Thanks Sir Vivor, I must admit that my casualty figures were slightly exaggerated – Must have been a bit of lefti in me.
Now I know that you know what white Phosphorous is; it is a canister with a jelly substance < Non flammable – and it is a pure and simple Anti personnel munitions. I t has not been in service or manufactured as weapon munitions for donkeys years. Not very effective in built up areas , its primary role was to create an area atmospheric condition to stick and hinder infantry; for that very reason it was never used in Gaza or anywhere else.
There is a strong probability they used May palm ; considering that the methodology of tunnelling is used by Hamas , and there be a very strong possibility of secondary explosions of Munitions stored in the tunnel system ; That incendiary device is designed for rapid air consumption , normal high explosive device would obliterate a building.

Unless you are suggesting Saddams weapon of mass destruction, or a portion there of are held in the tunnel systems in Gaza? Syria would have been my bet. But who knows.

I can only give advice when it comes to the Chompa , have a good laugh , and just ignore him.
You do know he is Jewish ?

All,

re:
"Now I know that you know what white Phosphorous is; it is a canister with a jelly substance < Non flammable – and it is a pure and simple Anti personnel munitions."

You are mistaken.

I share public knowledge, clearly explained on Wikipedia and other sites, repeatedly televised and discussed in unmistakeable terms. For an undisputed photo of WP bombardment, see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

And you are foolish to state (or assume) that you know what I know.

I readily admit that I do not know what you know, because I am not the sort of smug, patronising buffoon who repeatedly misinterprets others information and ignores their questions.

As for your question, yes, I have been aware of Noam Chomsky's Jewish background. I do not know how devout he may be, or whether his jewishness is as of much interest to him as it would have been to Reinhard Heydrich, whose assassination in 1942 precipitated the atrocities at Lidice.

Three questions for you:
(1) What does Noam Chomsky's religion have to do with his comments, in
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20316?

(2-3) (with context, from my earlier post of Fri 23 January 7:14 AM)
" "According to army sources the [IDF]brigade fired up to 20 phosphorus shells in a heavily built-up area around the Gaza township of Beit Lahiya, one of the worst hit areas of Gaza."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/gaza-phosphorus-shells

If there is a hoax involving WP, it involves no lack of evidence of its use. Stupid, cruel villagers being allowed to masquerade as IDF soldiers, through the ignorance or complicity of their superiors, now there is the seed of a hoax, grown and blossomed into grotesque proportions.

[Question 2] How am I to distinguish these IDF soldiers from others? From those who burned and murdered in Lidice, or carpet-bombed over Guernica, or from Hamas soldiers doing their rocket science on Israeli civilians?

[Question 3] Am I supposed to distinguish them [IDF soldiers guilty of war crimes] by the righteousness of their cause?"

I have to concede Sir Vivor , that it was very awfully presumptuous of me to assume that I have come to realise the whole some of your knowledge; I had not realised I was looking at a postage stamp size summary.
If your only reference to the sum total of your contribution is Public Information supplied by Google and, or Wiki, Then that Sir Vivor, is a testimonial to the intellectual buffoonery; and the indoctrinated ignorance of your intellectual programmers –I do not blame you, you are seemingly an end product of the transition of Intellect and reasoned objectivism to primitive whichdoctory, heavily loaded with Sophism and utter Trope.
I cannot argue a point of fact, if that fact does not exist – un like the sophist approach by creating a question based on your answer and a conclusion before the fact is known; - in Dialectic’s Sir Vivor, that is sophism. A post modern short cut and docile laziness.
I suppose we can change it from the fog of war to the White Phosphorous of intelligent debate.
You ought to start a discussion page for yourself about the Chompa, but remember when he was hard at work , the drug sucking hippy freak show of the sixties and seventies are your teachers and lecturers- and their kids ; Good luck sir-viving That onslaught of intellectual deactivation.

All: This discussion is about hypocrisy. It is not about me and you.

I refer you to the UK parliamentary speech below. If you really want a killer last word, try staying on topic.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090115/debtext/90115-0013.htm

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

(snip)

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

(snip)

The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis’ real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

I understand that point Survivor- the Guilt of the Holocaust; - and it is not ours to bare- and Your parents migrated from Poland ; then you would also know the holocaust , many countless millions attributed to Communism in Poland and Ukraine etc ; and it was far more than 6 million – try conservatively 25 million .

I do not consider Israel guilt mongering for what had happened in WW2 ; There are some , and not many that would use that to gain advantage , as there is others who would use it to incite hatred at any level – pathological hatred ;- and as you know already the misery it caused to you and your family , and the countless millions of others – The weapon of socialism ; Whether it be NAZI Socialism or Communism in any form - they are the same Ideology and narcissistic personas - period.

That is why it is of the utmost importance to identify the charter of, and those that convey information (Oxymoron in most instances).

It is an absolute lie for anyone to suggest Israel is about terminating any one, and I would be certain that you know and realise that the Protocols of The elders of Zion are a fraudulent document.

There are many publications in the early part of the century that have investigated and reported of its origins- ; I am on Satellite, not my mainframe, so I do not have the links to the publication reproductions here.

Anyway, always be weary of Publications of most things after the late 1950 ‘is; - is the best advice,
And as best as anyone can; - understand the new Anti-Semitism and its origins , Your parents may well know the answer ,but it does not fit the puzzle; - The puzzle was scrambled deliberately- and that means people need to work harder.