Porky: << Anyone who loves mother or father or sister or brother more than me is not worthy of me... >>

I think that anybody who "loves" a guy who's been dead for a couple of thousand years more than their family "is not worthy" of having one.

hear, hear.

Yes CJ.. on the surface that sounds even reasonable.

I'm surprise you didn't come up with the "But look at what the Church put in Jesus mouth so they could use this to force compliance and mindless obedience"....that's usually a good standby.

But of course..for those who have read the Gospels and grasped their content, and as a result met the risen Lord.. and experienced His grace.... well.. they view things differently.

The point of course, in me using those 'hard' sayings of Jesus was to illustrate that happy clappy, cheap and shallow pseudo animistic Christianity will have a very predictable result.

This article on Hillsong reviewing a book from a disgruntled parishioner is interesting. The reviewer has obviously never been a long time attendee. The lessons taught at Hillsong, are constantly derived from both the Old and New Testament, and delivered with flair and passion. People are encouraged to bring their own Bible, and the message is essentially exactly the same as that delivered by the Anglican Church, and I have no doubt the Presbyterian Church as well.

While the Anglican, Presbyterian and Roman Catholic Churches are losing weekly attendees, Hillsong continues to attract regular crowds, in all of its services throughout Sydney. No one makes anyone attend. They come because the services are fun, the music is great, and the quality of the pastors is superb. The Word is delivered by both men and women. Husband and wife teams are the norm, and women at Hillsong are honoured and immensely appreciated.

On top of that the very best preachers in the world come as guest speakers. They come not just for conferences, although the three major conferences attract very interesting speakers, weekend services often have the worlds very best evangelical speakers, with their own special message. Outsiders concentrate on the money involved, but the Church itself concentrates on the welfare and spiritual health of its many members. It thrives because it is all about people, not money.

The common law of all Christians is the New Testament, and the system introduced by Jesus Christ replaced the Roman System where the State was the Church. The second temptation of Jesus Christ was when Pontius Pilate offered him citizenship of Rome. That meant repudiating Almighty God and accepting Caesar as god. Jesus preferred death to dishonour. Nature abhors a vacuum, and the mainstream Churches have left a vacuum. They fill at Easter and Christmas, christenings, weddings and funerals, but they have failed to educate their flocks on the benefits of Christianity, in each and everyone’s daily lives. The States have filled that void by becoming “churches”. The Priests of the State Church are lawyers, and Parliaments are treated as their nine gods

',I think that anybody who "loves" a guy who's been dead for a couple of thousand years more than their family "is not worthy" of having one.;

And yet those who do love the Resurrected life are far more likely to be faithful to their wives, children and enemies.

another point re: 'Testing God'...

If God did not want us to ask for anything, why then are there passages in the scripture which suggest that all you ask of the Father in the name of the Son will be granted?

For me, it is hard to grasp... Sometimes the scripture seems contradictory - or otherwise misinterpreted...

For instance, it is suggested in Revealtions that ALL one asks of the Father in the name of the Son will be granted...

Elsewhere it is suggested that one must be a 'Friend' of Jesus for this to be granted.

And elsewhere again, it is suggested that it is a matter of faith - that all you truly believe will be granted - that you ask for - will be so...

Regardless of confusion, though, the scripture does - one way or another - seem to invite us to ask things of the Father in the name of the Son...

Is this 'testing the Lord'?

And why should we not ask for that which is merciful, gracious and just? And if we suffer - what is there left if we give in on our prayers being answered? How to persevere without hope?

Holding on to hope in prayer - I don't believe this is 'testing the Lord' in any sense forbidden.