When the premise of what you believe is based on untruths and spin-magic anything is possible. Once you lay the foundation for power that comes through religious authority the path to corruption is open. And no I am not offering that all religious leaders are corrupt just that the ground is fertile and the conditions ripe for those that might take advantage of their power.

Many bizarre sects have arisen from Christianity, the leaders of which have their own agendas and usually it is far from the idea of "God" that most moderate Christians would hold and lies more in power, wealth and sometimes perverseness.

runner, I know many Catholics who have had abortions and many other of various religious faiths. One girl I knew at university had three abortions because she was more afraid of God's law about contraception and her parents finding out she had sex than about abortion. People will use any rationale sometimes to support their actions. This girl would have done better psychologically had she been not so indoctrinated in the first place.

Pelican, surely if this girl was concerned about God's law against contraception (as you referred to it), she would have been equally concerned about God's laws against fornication and abortion?

You did, however, hit the nail on the head when you mentioned her fears about what her parents would say. Obviously Catholicism was her parents' religion rather than hers - it worked for them, so they assumed that it must work for her and consequently forced it upon her. That sort of indoctrination (or evangelisation, perhaps) is a key problem with many religious people.

I, personally, am a Catholic. Catholicism works for me and I am content with its rules, practices and beliefs. That doesn't mean I am indoctrinated or that I am a mindless drone - it just means that, on close investigation, I found something I am happy with. While I was baptised as a child, my parents always offered me an escape clause: if I didn't like it, I didn't have to follow it. If I became a Methodist, a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Mormon, or if I rejected religion altogether, it would have been fine. As I came across friends who were atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, or agnostic, they were welcoming and so was I. Consequently, I am happy. I have explored beliefs, questioned them and worked with them. Will I force my children to become active Catholics, or to believe anything in particular? Certainly not.

What I'm getting at is this: religious people aren't necessarily weak or feeble. They aren't necessarily critical or hateful of others. I work within my own system of belief and let others work within theirs. If I believe something, I follow it. But I don't judge others who don't believe it.

Otonko
I wasn't offering that her reasoning was rational - just the opposite. Perhaps you are right in she may have been more fearful of her parents than anything else although she presented herself as of Catholic faith. But again that may have been more a result of her parent's influence.

"What I'm getting at is...: religious people aren't necessarily weak or feeble. They aren't necessarily critical or hateful of others. I work within my own system of belief and let others work within theirs. If I believe something, I follow it. But I don't judge others who don't believe it."

Otonko, I agree with this statement to some extent and I am pleased that there are many religious people like you. OLO has tended to attract some religious folk who are far less egalitarian or open-minded. Unfortunately religion as a whole tends to promulgate the view that theirs is the one true religion. There are often many prejudices against those who might put forward a different view. As a Catholic I am sure you must have met with other Catholics who believe that only Catholics go to heaven and Anglicans are heretics.

I have an issue when these prejudices play out in society and affect the lives of other people. Many of my friends are religious and are not weak or feeble nor are they any more moral or compassionate than others merely by virtue of their beliefs.

Religion has been around for centuries and is very much part of the fabric of our society so for someone to declare themselves religious is hardly out of the norm nor could it be considered weak or feeble in that context.

Otherwise as you say, people should be free to take comfort in their beliefs if they choose but it is never as simple as this. I remember going to a Mormon (breakaway group) wedding years ago where the pastor/priest/rector (?) used the ceremony to castigate members of the congregation who did not 'fear' God. It was terrible and I know this is just one bad example but unfortunately it happens.

I understand exactly what you say, Pelican. And I grinned to myself when you mentioned the at times bigoted beliefs of many of my fellow Catholics. Every Sunday at Church I get the feeling that I am looked down upon by many others because:
a) I'm young
b) I go alone (what sort of family must I come from?!!)
c) after many, many years, I still don't know all the words I'm meant to say, or sing.
If they look down on me - some with pitying eyes, others with distrust - what must they think of my Anglican mother? Sadly, these people had their beliefs forced upon them, and know no other way. Furthermore, they know of no reason to find any other way.

A couple of questions:

The Catholic church demands proof of miracles performed before formal canonisation. Aside from Hillsong - is this 'signs and wonders' or 'magic'? And what of those miracles proclaimed in the Gospel?

(perhaps the trouble here is unlocking the true meaning of scripture... Perhaps in our Literalism we misunderstand?? The question is worth asking...)

This is not an attack on Catholicism-although personally I think most saints are never recognised by the Catholic church as an institution...

But it is just to show that such beliefs are 'in the mainstream' of Christianity...

I believe it best to combine appreciation of 'transcendential' phenomena - with scientific method on the other hand - with intent of discovering natural law - and anything that may be beyond natural law.

We need BOTH - as How can we understand free will AND consciousness except as transcending the material principles of cause and effect? This alone should be enough to make us consider God more seriously - and with an open mind.

We shouldn't dismiss that we cannot understand. Gallileo was condemned by the Roman Catholic authorities in his time...The frontiers of science were curtailed - because the escelesiastical authorities could not accept what they did not yet understand...

Dare I say today we need consider the opposite...Secular materialism denies that which cannot be observed so as to comprise natural and material laws of cause and effect.

I do not deny the Holy Spirit. As a Christian I long to appreciate God as much as my limited faculties enable me to. I long for a peace of mind that the World alone does not provide.

My argument with church institutions, though, is that so many do not attempt to reveal the true meaning of mysteries-most of which I believe-are not meant to be taken as Literal.

Those who are seeking 'spiritual truth' need more than fear-although probably there is much in the world that warrants fear...

We could do with truth,understanding,wisdom: and rather than hiding behind mystery - those in the position to do so should reveal its meaning....

Unlike some I don't believe churches should be banned but do believe with good cause that the favoured position of churches should be revoked. There are far too many 'American styled’ cynical corporately operated churches abusing the law.
The law as it stands is unable to distinguish between those whose purposes are to minister to the people who have the need or those that treat the law as a licence to print money and indulge in power plays perverting public policy for the benefit of their controlling groups. Including outrageously extravagant lifestyles while emotionally manipulating the poor to donate.
I would argue that they should be treated as the Corporations that they in reality are. This would include Tax and having the same reporting requirements, disclosures and legal obligations.
Hillsong is one clear example.