As a layperson this situation seems frustratingly simple to me than very possibly most others visiting this site. None-the-less, I want to express that simplicity.
Every single individual that makes up the 6 billion population of the world is different. I think the main aspect that humanity needs to focus on is like Shakespeare said, "Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so".
Yes there need to be rules. Yes Israel should NOT be bombing the Gaza strip right now -they should be stopped, they should be made accountable, but according to rational, objective, international, inforced laws, that are based on everyones general wellbeing.
I think it's got to the rediculous point where no-one should live in the Gaza strip and it should be just blotted out of existance. Like a toy being taken away from two spoilt, disrespectful, inconsiderate children for not being able to share because that is how rediculuous they are behaving! Except in this case innocent people with their own individual potentials are being murdered.
If Israel and Palestine where children, what would be done? That is part of the problem, there are as many answers for that as there are people in the world.
So, world peace...? Only if people can learn to see past their own lives and realise that globalisation is here to stay and that having consideration and thought for someone next door that you see every day should be the same consideration you give to people living thousands of miles away from you with completely different perspectives from your own, reguardless of race, creed and especially religion. It's just getting stupid now, we do after all live in the 21st century. How long do we allow ourselves to keep on making the same mistakes.

As usual, these two vicious anti-Israel & self-hating Jews have gotten their facts wrong & try to mislead their reading public. Just two examples are necessary:
1. As the special feature in today's Age points out, during the "cease-fire" Hamas never ceased firing rockets (either by them or their proxies) - they were merely reduced significantly (see today's Age). So no, Israel did not violate the cease-fire. It was unquestionably Hamas. As stated above, Hamas never ceased fire. Regarding the tunnel issue, Israel simply bombed a tunnel that was to be used to kidnap an Israeli soldier. Naughty Israel!
2. The distortion of numbers by these 2 "distinguished" authors is mind-boggling. To quote: "Nevertheless, horrifying accounts of human tragedy are emerging from human rights workers who describe the carnage of civilians - around 380 dead and more than 1,700 injured by "surgical" air strikes that have..." Around 380 civilian deaths?! Total rubbish. By all accounts (including by the Palestinain groups themselves), around a quarter of all fatalities (currently around 400) are civilian - that's 100 civilian deaths. Unfortunately these numbers are set to rise but this is solely due to the Hamas illegal & immoral method of fighting. By the way, please name me a recent war where less than 25% of the fatalities were civilian.
The authors' hate for Israel & their embarrassment of being Jewish has confused them. Be proud of who you are!

Jindy, you seem a little bit apologetic for thinking the solution is "frustratingly simple". I am drawn to the Mencken quote "for every complicated problem there is a simple solution, and it is usually wrong" (I have quoted from memory, but the point is made), but on this occasion, I do think the answer is "frustratingly simple", but the implementation is exceedingly difficult.
A letter to the Herald (SMH) this week (to which I replied but was not published) made the frustratingly common comment that it is "the responsibility of every government to protect its citizens". This is one of those statements which seems unarguable at first thought, but you soon realise the statement should be that it is the responsibility of government to protect ALL citizens, no matter where they live.
continued next post

)continued)
If we looked at issues in terms of "how can this problem be resolved" rather than who are the "goodies" and who are the "baddies"; if we did not look on other countries as part of an "axis of evil"; if the attack on Iraq was not justified as "good for America". The trouble is that in the 21st century when we should be attempting to find ways to resolve problems without resort to war, we are not able to do so. Our mindset is "do unto other before they can do unto us". To turn the other cheek is too difficult for us. I am sure that if I were an Israeli living under the threat of a bomb from Gaza, I would want to do what I could to avoid the threat. If I were a Palestinian, living in the Gaza strip, in abominable conditions, with tough sanctions imposed while my enemy lived in "occupied territory" contrary resolutions of the United Nations, I too would want to do fight against this.
What we need is an honest broker. And we also need to get rid of these ridiculous religions which tear people asunder. That's another issue, but it does indicate how your "frustrating simple solution" is so difficult to implement.
But don't give up the (peaceful) fight.

In order to liberate Iraqis from the oppression and misery of Saddam Hussein's rule, all we had to do was get rid of Saddam Hussein. In order to liberate the people of Gaza from the oppression and misery of Hamas rule, get rid of Hamas. It's as easy as that, and the Gaza operation promises to be as successful as the one in Iraq. No one is saying that either Hussein or Hamas were/are pleasant company, but the parallels are blindingly obvious.

Israel invaded Egyption administered GAZA in 1967 and have controlled it since then. A few years ago, after Israel decided that it was not in their interest to remain in control of GAZA they provided some autonomy to Palestinians living in GAZA. However Israel kept full control of all the borders, the airspace and the sea. It controls all the imports of food, medicine, fuel and all other goods, including medicine from the Red Cross and other aid providers, and also much of the finance. No one is allowed in, or out, unless the Israelis give permission. Hundreds of sick and injured Palestinians have died waiting in fain at an Israeli checkpoint. Even UN officials and church leaders have been prevented by Israel to enter GAZA. Consequently their is starvation in GAZA, many children suffer malnutrition, more than 50% of Palestinians are unemployed as their is no import or export industry. Consequently the Palestinians living in GAZA are frustrated and angry. They are at the end of their tether and can endure no more. How can they care for their children? What future do they or their children have? What can we do, what options do we have? None?

In the West Bank negotiations with the Israeli's have produced little: More Israeli settlements, more road blocks, more arrests, more properties destroyed and no independent Palestinian state in sight. No wonder that HAMAS is seen as popularly elected movement to use their very limited options to change their impossible and inhuman situation. No I do not support violence, but when a peoples well-being and their future is removed by force, it is not surprising that too use force against their oppressors.
The Palestinians living in GAZA urgently need our support to regain justice and their human rights.

MEBDA,
I am no apologist for Palestinian violence.

But to use your tone and reasoning 100 odd civilians dead is OK (just so long as they're not Israeli.) Not to mention the hospital that is hobbled from saving lives by Israeli intent. Of course Mossad are an entity of extra ordinary international moral integrity quite averse to manipulation of situations outside international law or cease fires. e.g. Man hunt and wrongful executions of Palestinian innocents like the man in Norway.

BTW Jewish is a religious determination NOT a national one.

I have a Jewish daughter who has recently returned from Years in Israel and swears never to sanction the prejudice etc. that is rife there. She is proudly Jew but despises the hypocrisies that are "Israel’s justifications.”
When I read your post to her she said it is YOUR Attitude that needs 'the mote removed'.

Just because you don't agree with someone that doesn't give you the right to question the integrity or authenticity of what is written via personal and irrelevant insulting attacks designed to avoid any meaningful objective examination. Lowenstein’s et al’s personal religion has NOTHING to do with the issue. The hatred/ loathing are in your mind, not his or mine. I seek a fair resolutions positions of power etc are irrelevant to that end. Negotiation is best between equals otherwise it is simply one side dictating the terms and by definition that is imposition. Ultimately a forced solution never lasts.

BTW Right and wrong are among the first victims in a war neither side is ever blameless.

Jindy, has it ever occurred to you to read a few books on a subject before parading your profound ignorance? Maybe you could begin by reading Antony Loewenstein's excellent My Israel Question.

The resettlement of holocaust survivors in a 'jewish' old testament promised land set the stage for this deplorable state of affairs with the Holocaust survivors Zionist leadership morphing into the Nazi's they escaped from.
Without support from Britain and the USA the present impossible situation would not prevail.

A two State solution will not resolve the problem with fundamentalist extremists fanning the flames of dissention at every opportunity
There is not likely to be a solution during the Presidency of Barack Obama who has already indicated his unequivival support for Israel.

I have indicated in other forum that the time is right for the United Nations to review the veto rights of the Five Permanent members and seriously set out to correct the mistakes of 1947-48
Firstly the lack of consultation with the Palestinians and
Secondly the green light for the establishment of a Semitic state instead of a secular one.

The United Nations does not have a great record when dealing with difficult racial issues but that is the forum where a solution must be thrashed out without the USA & Britain being allowed to veto the efforts.

Over two-thirds of the worlds population is without tertiary education, and it's not always as financially available as you might think, even in developed countries.
You shouldn't knock someone for the guts to express their opinion, reguardless of how simple and ignorant it is. Everyone has a different perspective.
However am looking for further information so thanks for the tip.

I was researching Cognitive Dissonance for an article when I came across something I had been working with before. We need the duality of who we are not to tell us who we are. An example given was that fundamentalist Jews needed Hamas to be Jews, and that Hamas need the Jews to give them their identity.
Neither the Jews or Hamas are as alive as when they are fighting each other. There is nothing like conflict to give identity.
Fundamentalist Jews and the Palestinians share a common root to their religions, and a common ancestry. They are more alike than different. They also share a common attitude to war. If they are not fighting they are not alive. If there is nobody else to fight they fight each other. Fighting for both has become a cultural necessity. It has been going on for four thousand years and if anyone ever finds a way to change the attitude of either the Jews or Hamas it will be a miracle.

oHHHHH my... STEWTH is back.. *ow_r_ya_moit*?

I find it fascinating that in the midst of all these disturbing goings on in Israel/Gaza..... so many of us are looking for "Mr Right".. i.e...the good guy and the bad guy..and different posters have different opinions about this.

WE NEEEED TO THINK BIG PICTURE ... sorry but true.

Unless we examine the framework for these events we will just be pushed and belted from side to side..this way and that like an inexperienced and docile dodgem car driver at the mercy of 'Satan and his cohorts' in the black cars.

FRAMEWORK.

1/ Israel is there.
2/ Israel is there to stay.
3/ This is theologically and territorially anathema to Muslims.
4/ This is an insult to Mohammad and his many victories in the past.
5/ This is a reversal of the victory of Caliph Omar who Muslims love to love. Specially it is a reversal of KHAYBER where the last Jews were conquered on the Arabian peninsula.
6/ Mohammad/Umar's spiritual descendants HAMAS have openly declared they plan to 'evacuate' (ethnically cleanse/genocide) 'Palestine/Muslim lands of all Jews.

You need look no further in understanding this conflict.

If this is understood, there will not be any more grasping at straws trying to identify each jot and tittle of 'WHO BROKE' the latest ceasefire.... specially considering that Abu Abir from Gaza said:

"The cease-fire offers a period of calm for our fighters to recover and prepare for our final goal of evacuating Palestine,"
That was in 2006!

But we don't need to go anywhere other than the HAMAS charter..which is abundantly clear on their goals.

The state of war exists because of competing claims to land believed to have been given by Allah/God.

There can only be ONE earthly solution.... a total victory for one side or the other, which means brutal total war and ultimately the complete evacuation/re-location of those who would do the same to your side.

Personally, I believe HAMAS is trying to drag Israel into an unwinnable (for HAMAS) fight they believe will create a united Arab war against Israel. (yet again)

examinator, if you want to change the tone, you might address mebda's clear and specific criticisms of the original article, which was clearly the point of his/her post.

As if Israel needs to be dragged into a war. How delicious!

I found this article to be extremely
resonable and responsible. And I fully
agree with the two authors:

"...if we are to make some contribution towards a
just peace... we must join with Israelis such as
peace group Gush Shalom to condemn the
unprecedented terror being perpetrated by the
Israeli government against the people of Gaza."

Israel has brought these conditions upon itself
by its blockade of Gaza. They have created a
humanitarian crisis by its blockade. (A crisis which
even the Red Cross condemns). In not allowing
either basic essentials such as bread, or medical supplies,
into Gaza. I'm surprised that rockets are the only
weapons being used in retaliation

Dear Foxy... ur right :) we are about to disagree again.... but hopefully in a congenial manner.

I note your perspective on the events. You said
"Israel is at fault because of it's blockade."

but the Israelis say:
"We are blockading because of rockets"

You suggest that the rockets are some kind of retaliation for the blockade? At this point it almost becomes meaningless to debate the issue because it's kinda chicken and eggish no? If we focus just on the last side which did a bad thing, we can derive any perspective we like.. all we have to do is choose an event which supports our predisposed opinion don't we?

I'll be surprised if Logic does not enter the fray here as he has a very detailed time line on all these events.

I become weary of trying to work out who did what to whom and when, because no matter how well we think we have tied it down..... suddenly it comes unstuck with just one new fact.

EXAMPLE. Lowenstien quotes Haertez claim Israel broke the ceasefire by bombing a tunnel- buttttttt the tunnel itself is a breach of the ceasefire as it is being used to accumulate arms and weaponry.
So...it becomes very murkey and messy trying to decide who is right or wrong here. How many missiles can be smuggled through a tunnel?

Unfortunately, no matter which way the cake is cut, we cannot escape the underlying problem as illustrated by a sign at this Sydney '(Muslim)Prayer for Gaza' event. The sign said "Palestine is MUSLIM land, we will never surrender even a handspan of it"...note the sign did not say 'Palestinian' land..but 'MUSLIM'. That's the key to it all.

One could re-write this article under the title “Israel Distorted by Lowenstein’s and Slezak’s Lens”. The lives of 400,000 Israelis that live and work within the range of the Quassam rockets are threatened on a daily basis and their FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT is infringed as they are enforced to live on a daily basis in-and-out of shelters, which is a cardinal principle of human rights, and L and S with a sleigh of hand transform this threat and abrogation of freedom of movement into a failure of the media and of politicians to acknowledge the transgressor in this conflict which to them clearly is the terrorist government of Israel.

Guilty to the brim of his cup of consciousness that he does not support Israel in this deadly conflict, Lowenstein—as I don’t know whether Slezak too is a Jew—attempts to cover up his “turncoatedness” to Israel under the slogan of “TOUGH LOVE” and furtively place himself as a true friend of Israel. True friendship however is shown when friends rush along to help someone who is in a critical situation, like Israel is and has been for a long time. Lowenstein is no friend of Israel.

http://kotzabasis.createblog.com/blog/

Hi,

Nice article .I think it's got to the rediculous point where no-one should live in the Gaza strip and it should be just blotted out of existance.

NYK

<a href="http://www.drug-intervention.com/texas-drug-intervention.html">Drug Intervention Texas</a>

Jindy,

I started reading your item thinking "Here we go blah, blah". Another dumb idea.

But frankly you're right. Apologies for prejudging.

If those two were your children? I suspect you'd drown them both and feel better about yourself having made the world a better place. Justifiable homicide if ever there was such a case.

The people's in that region have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what it's about. Now it's just about hate and revenge for yesterday, and tomorrow. The innocent can stop it today if they all stood up and said "No more". But of course they are terrified of the few living nightmares.

I'd suggest the whole area be cordoned off and told to sort it out in say, 12 months. No more supplies from anywhere, nothing. Anyone who survives get's a country each as that's all that would be left.

Neither will ever stop. Bigger countries use them as entertainment frankly. Sick world.

Dear Polycarp,

We are definitely going to disagree on this
subject.

I agree totally with Antony Loewenstein, when
in his book, "My Israel Question," he points
out that:

"...the Israeli perspective is far better
understood in the West, largely because of
the Zionist lobby's activities, but also
because Israel's struggle against 'terrorism'
is now framed even more so since Sept. 11 -
as 'our' struggle against Islamic
fundamentalism..."

So, it's obvious to me why you'd be riding on
that bandwagon. But hey, you're not alone, so
don't feel bad.

The author tells us that:
"The Palestinians are not particularly effective at
translating their message for a Western audience,
and most Western journalists based in Israel
spend relatively little time in East Jerusalem and
the occupied territories."

He emphasises that:, "...Zionist lobby groups
in the USA, UK, Europe and Australia are highly
vocal and efficient at persuading journalists,
editors, and politicians that Israel must be
supported and defended. Ferocious media-monitoring
groups such as HonestReporting contribute to this
atmosphere of intimidation. They also refuse to
tolerate dissenting opinions on the conflict,
and actively campaign against Jewish and non-Jewish
critics."

The Zionist lobby isn't solely responsible for this
situation, as Loewenstein points out, but the post
Sept. 11 environment has emboldened the lobby.

Loewenstein sums it up in a nutshell when he says
that, "As Muslims grow in number and political potency,
the dynamics of the Middle East conflict could change
radically. Only then, perhaps, will we understand that
the US role has always been a rejectionist one,
dedicated largely to maintenance of the Jewish state,
and not really that of an 'honest-broker' at all.

And only then will there be recognition that the
Palestinian leadership has not in fact rejected
'generous' peace deals with Israel over the years;
there has never been a fair and balanced offer on the
table."

RobbyH

'The people's in that region have been fighting for so long they don't even remember what it's about.'

Rubbish. They know all too well what the fighting is about.

This is typical condescension progaganda, routinely used against dispossessed people who often have to spend many generations resisting an occupying force that becomes increasingly punitive and desperate over time.

The Israel-Palestine issue is just another manifestation of the age-old war between a largely transplanted population and a dispossessed population. The former always has might (and sometimes law) on its side but little moral justification, while the latter has moral justification but a severely weakened military or legal ability to reverse its own dispossession.

As sure as night follows day, the occupying force increasingly falls victim to its own fear of retribution from the dispossessed population, seizing more and more internal territory and taking more and more rights away. In response, the dispossessed population loses confidence in the ability of non-violent negotiation and compromise to reverse the injustice of its dispossession and increasingly resorts to violence. This in turn allows the occupying population to reinvent itself as the victim.

This dispossessed-as-aggressor (and occupier-as-victim) propaganda was used against the Irish, black South Africans, the Vietnamese, virtually every nationalist struggle in history ... and Indians in several hundred Hollywood westerns.

It is impossible to reconcile with an organization that vows to wipe Israel out, is it? It is stated clearly in their (Hamas) charter, thus, this article bears little water and an attempt to distort the truth regarding the ongoing on battle in Gaza.
Think about these things. Hamas invaded, tortured, and toppled Fatah government in Gaza last year because they believe that Fatah is very proWestern and anti-Palestine liberation. Secondly, 400 missiles reigned over Israel long before the first bomb dropped on Gaza.
In fact, last year, Israel dismantled and arrested Jews protesters in area closer to Gaza that Palestine authority demanded as part of the peace process. It seems then that the Hamas is carrying out its Charter! not the other way around.
I don't think that 200 rockets were fired to Israel because a tunnel was bombed! this is preposterous!

Matangi, The Israeli UN ambassador only this week said that Israel intended to wipe out Hamas, so your argument crumbles a bit.
But this continuing discussion gets nowhere, each author trying to lay some sort of blame on one side or the other, as if the "final solution" is to decide who is to blame, and then wipe them out. What is needed is a pathway to peace, and firing rockets by either side does not get peace unless one side eventually overcomes the other, and that peace would only be shortlived.
Compromise is needed and I believe the major compromise and the first step should come from the stronger side. The Palestinians should be released from their Gaza "prison", and Israel, the UN, and individual countries should take steps to improve the lot of the Palestinians. This is a first step only. It would take decades to remove the hatreds of the last five decades.

nyk007

Isn't that what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has been castigated for saying about Israel?

Harry G,

Your viewpoint is one that has growing credence in the West. The Israeli's and their propagandists cannot grasp this concept and are relying on their past methods to achieve their deceipt. Those methods are now easily seen through as the west has growing disregard for is media. The western media is now so opinionated and biased in so many ways it is simply no longer trusted when reporting events. More and more people are turning to the internet. As we can see in this article the arguments in favour of a just solution, and one obviously opposite to the desires of the expansionists, far outweigh in reason and volume the arguments of the Israeli supporters.

It's been a trend over the past few years and accelerated after the latest Israeli debacle in Lebanon.

Would the Israeli's in the past have ever been accused of using military action against the Palestinians so as to affect the outcome of an upcoming election? Never ever, yet today it's commonplace and significantly a point religiously ignored by the Israeli's and their supporters ... and that is very telling.

Matangi,

You seemed somehow to have missed the result of the UN observed Palestinian elections ... which saw Hamas elected as the Government of the Palestinians. Which resulted in Gaza being invaded and tortured, and it's elected representives imprisoned. But note in the meantime Hamas hasn't been toppled and actually had a peace agreement with Israel. Odd really eh?

As always, Lowenstein is the one doing the distorting.

Yes, the Hamas won the election so what? It is a party that sworn for the destruction of Israel, and whose charter is not endorsed by the Palestinian authority. Israel is a state recognized by many countries except the hard-line Islamic states who are now using Hamas to wage proxy wars against Israel. If Israel is intended to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth so be it, let Hamas fulfill its own charter and promises to wipe Israel of the face of the earth. Go back and have a look at every peace agreements signed between the Palestinian authority and Israel since the days of Arafat. Hamas have always been the breaker of peace negotiations!
When President Abas signaled his intention of setting up a Palestine state, as proposed by Israel, the Hamas invaded Gaza and toppled the Fatah authority! I just don't understand why apologists like you guys criticize Israel.
My heart goes out to the innocent lives lost in the Israeli air assault, but unless Hamas ceased its senseless attack on Israeli neighborhood, there will be no peace! The world is quick to condemn Israel and not the Hamas, which is interesting! When rockets reigned down on Israel, no one seemed to care!
Plus, toppling a legitimate government by a criminal faction loyal to one party in government, is amount to treason! and you guys should know that! Fatah loyal officers were lined up and shot when Hamas took over Gaza. A number of Hamas men deserted the Hamas after seeing the treatment of their own people. Including a son of a Hamas founder now speaking out against Hamas now!

To all those 'Hamas' supporters out there.

A recent demonstration (days ago) found on youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Xl68kP4wo

from fort lauderdale florida shows a largish Pro Palestinian demonstration and a smaller pro Israel one on the opposite corner.

A muslim woman repeatedly shouts out "You are losers" while holding up a sign "Nuke Israel"...later she abuses the Pro Israelies with this charming example of Muslim womanhood.."you are your mothers whore"
Another delightful Pro Palestinian woman says "Go back to the OVEN...you need a bigger OVEN"

The Imam then says "Once we educate people to the true Islam, they won't be able to resist it".. duh!

The Muslim crowd then tries to attack the pro Israel group and shows the true nature of "Kill them wherever you find them" Islam.

TOMORROW (Sunday 2:00pm) at the State Library (Melbourne) we will have the usual 'Rent-a-Crowd' of loony lefists and their Muslim partners, both using each other.

When Lowenstien speaks of 'Muslim numbers growing' is he talking about the likes of Nisam Rayan who has 4 wives and 12 children?
That kind of thing?

-Israel relinquished Gaza.. and STILL missiles flew.
-Hamas builds smuggling tunnels for weapons.. Israel bombs them.. Israel is the bad guy? sorry.. that defies rationality.

But come what may, as I said before.. the FRAMEWORK is the important thing.

HAMAS CHARTER is the basis on which Hamas works...and it involves genocide against Israel

Hands up all those 'pro palestinians' out there in OLO who support GENOCIDE?

Now..hands up all those who support Hamas, and DON'T believe they will do what their charter says (Genocide).

All those who put up their hands for the last question may now go to the dunces corner.

I like you, Polycarp:-)! Loved your last post & link! As many people as possible should view it. It speaks for itself. Unfortunately too many Muslims share these views (that the entire world should be Islamised, that not enough Jews were killed in the Holocaust etc. - on the latter point many belive it simply didn't happen!).
The need to turn to violence (which was luckily prevented by police in this instance) is also not too uncommon.
But as our "distinguished" authors would have us believe, it's all Israel's fault - and so was September 11!

The Palestinian/Israeli conflict was essentially a political one but is now complicated by Islamism.

The Israelis have to finish HAMAS off, from its top general to the last foot soldier. Then, she has to return all the land captured after 1967 in exchange for lasting peace. This is possible only after the citadel (Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Al Azhar 'university')of Islamism is completely cleansed.

Hi Mebda... any support is always welcome :)

for all:

SELF TEST: "Am I a supporter of Genocide against Jews?"

Questions.

1/ Does Israel have a right to exist?

2/ Does Hamas believe they have a right to exist?

3/ If Hamas had the power, would Israel exist?

4/ Do you support Hamas?

5/ Do you believe that Israel should be free from the indiscriminant, evil attack of rockets which don't care if they murder old men and women or young children in the playground?

6/ If one of YOUR neighbours was hurling rockets into your back yard on a daily basis, would you just whine, wring your hands and bear it OR.. WOULD YOU take decisive action to end it by finding the perpetrator AND all those who voted for him and all supporters?

7/ Is Israel at fault for blockading Gaza as a LEAST harmful action to prevent rockets being launched and arms smuggling tunnels being built?

8/ Have you read and UNDERSTOOD the Hamas Charter(Islamic Mein Kampf)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article721211.ece (exerpts)

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html (full text)

Article 7 "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews),

Article 18:
Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them.

It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Muslim generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. (Article 15)

NOTICE that? "it is a religious problem" according to Hamas.

Oops..I thought it was about land? silly me.

IF...you support Hamas, you support Genocide! Sorry..but true.
The claim that they were democratically elected is meaningless.
Those who don't get this should not even discuss the matter.

see you all at 1.30pm (sunday 4th) Melbourne State Library in SUPPORT of Israel :)

Philip Tang

You are quite right when you say that it was previously a politcal question but is now an Islamic one.

There have been several articles recently in OLO about Islamophobia as though it is something one shouldnt discuss but there is all the evidence us to show that there are very good grounds for being wary--very wary.

The Hamas Charter on its own makes for very disturbing reading. Just one snippet, involving the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

"Article 32

Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

Now you would have to be seriously delusional to believe whats written in a work of fiction. But then, isnt that what the koran is, so I guess its not so surprising.

But wait there is more.(Courtesy of MAC on another thread)

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=daceykoproske_29_1

This is what the Islamists are trying to do to the UN Declaration on Human Rights, and the way they have gone about it.

Me thinks the world is going back to the dark ages, and the Isrealis are the only ones, at the moment, with the balls and the brains to try to stop it, in their area of influence at least.

Go Israel.

Dear Polycarp,

I agree with you on one thing:

"Those who don't get it should not even discuss
the matter!"

Hear! Hear!

In your entire rant what I find depressing
is that the Palestinian people don't rate
a mention. But I guess I should not be
surprised. Your anti-Muslim mantra always
over-rides all reason. You're always
consistent in your attacks.

As Antony Loewenstein tells us, in,
"My Israel Question," ...

"It is politically and morally convenient
for Zionist groups to continue to portray Israel as
'disenfranchised' rather than as a global power."

..."Arabs are continually associated
with terrorism and violence, being primitive and
anti-Western...it is unpopular to support the
Palestinians... it is an uphill battle for
Australians to unlearn years of Zionist
propaganda...

"People seem to make no distinction between an
occupied people and those who occupy them.
Israel talks about the right of self-defence.
How can an occupier claim self-defence but
deny the same right to those who are occupied
and have the right of self-defence with whatever
means available to them."

Loewenstein asks us to, "hope for a day when Zionists will
cease using Israel's 'security,' or the
Holocaust, or the 'war on terror' to justify and
excuse actions that are routinely condemned when
committed by any other country..."

"Most Israelis, like the Palestinians, simply want to
live in peace and security, though successive leaders,
in Israel and the Diaspora, seem determined to undermine
this possibility. Many, have a vested interest in
prolonging the conflict. Israel opposes a resolution
to the conflict because it opposes the presence of
another people on land it has claimed as exclusively
for Jews..."

The real challenge Loewenstein says,
"is to persuade our political leaders
and news media to listen to voices that challenge their
prejudices and preconceptions."

"The establishment of an independent, Palestinian state
is inevitable, but it won't happen easily, not without
the involvement of many caring people."

"Neither side has a monopoly on suffering but only
one side has the power to end the occupation and to
recognise that Israel and Palestine are historically
destined to share the same homeland."

How sad to see some of these posts. It is clear that the fanaticism displayed by Hamas, Ahmadinejad, the Israeli leadership and others, exists here in these posts and the only "final solution" some can perceive is death to the opposition.
I find it peculiarly strange and sad to see that the children of the survivors of the holocaust see the obliteration of Hamas as their way forward.
The indications of neo-nazism as displayed in these posts does not augur well for the future.

cont'd

The credibility of Antony Loewenstein has been
raised by several posters on this thread.

I would like to respond.

The author has impeccable credentials.
He is a distinguished journalist and author.
An expert on Middle East and North African Studies.
He has written for, The Sydney Morning Herald,
The Sun-Herald, The Australian, The Bulletin,
Crikey, Znet, New Matilda and Counterpunch.
His book, "My Israel Question," is required
reading for all HSC students.

As Dr Ilan Pappe, Senior Lecturer at the
University of Haifa, Israel, and author of
'A History of Modern Palestine,' says:

"My Israel Question" will serve as an essential
guide for those who dare to criticise Zionist
wrongdoing in the past and Israeli policies in
the present, without being deterred by false
allegations of antisemitism."

Personal attacks against such an author say more
about the person making the attacks than they do
about the author.

I have just received this email from a cousin in London:

"...the whole thing makes me sick - can't either side see that nothing works other than by talking? It's all so pathetic and tribal, and you can certainly feel the anti-semitism building up in England. It's mainly about the whole bloody scale of it. I still can't forget that dreadful 'shock and awe' thing which Bush and co. did; and everyone watched it on tv like a firework display, never mind the fact that citizens were underneath it all, and amidst it."

The only thing this article tells me as an Australian is that we don't need either of these two cultures in our country. Allowing them in, is just importing problems. Let them fight it out between themselves. I am sick of seeing masses of comments whenever a topic concerning Israel is posted. There are obviously too many people in Australia with divided loyalties. Go home and sort out your own problems, don't bring them here.

foxy, i have little respect or trust for anybody who uses the word "zionist" in the ludicrous manner in which lowenstein engages. i'll also point out that posters have not (merely) been attacking the person, they've been making substantive attacks on the original article. it is not about lowenstein's credentials, it's about his arguments, and the integrity with which he frames them.

it doesn't mean i diagree with the conclusions of the article or believe in the wisdom or morality of israel's current actions. but i don't respect or trust lowenstein, degrees and stature notwithstanding.

other than that, harryg nailed it. most of the posts here are very very depressing.

OK Ozzie...and while we're about it, let's deport all Greeks who have opinions about Macedonia, Sri Lankans with views about the Tamil Tigers, Croatians and Serbs with views about each other and Englishmen with opinions about soccer.

Youngsteve,
I totally agree with you, we don't need them either.

With Israel said to be supported by Obama and also apparently by our Rudd government, and with little Israel allowed still to be the most vicious world strike force - plus nuclear, one not only fears for the Middle East, but also global peace.

Thus I still believe Henry Kissinger was right when as Minister of State, he lambasted Nixon for allowing tiny Israel
to go Nuko.

Certainly America can be blamed for the whole schemozzle, especially with its crazy hold over the UN, especially when we have found the present US Minister of State Condoleeza Rice most alway jumping in to run the rotten show which has always meant that the US has always had its own
messy way.

So it seems even with Obama there will be the same lack of commonsense with little change.

One wonders why some of us oldies became qualified historians in our dotage, one now only wondering whether our younger public will ever know that at one time it looked like we would have a United Nations truly fashioned on what a UN was all about, not run by one nation with the most fire-power, and an undemocratic constitution, but a truly democratic Federation of Nations.

All one can say to our smart arse younger OLO's, please get your brains together and try to share the global guilt
before it's too late.

Have Fun - BB, Buntine, WA.

The New Year is a good time to start with commonsense; Israel's doing the commonsense thing. Defending herself from Hamas in Gaza. Now the Dutch Labor Party's doing the commonsense thing; abandoning its silly notion of parallel societies (aka 'multiculturalism'); calling for integration into Holland of muslim migrants. The International Herald Tribune may herald the opening barrage in the long awaited European backlash.

Be aware that the word 'multiculturalism' means different things in different places. In Australia it means integration; this policy of integration into the Australian mainstream is the policy that every migrant group, bar one, has adopted 100%. They have been keen to do this. We old Aussies have always been enthusiastic to welcome them (after the standard few years of grizzling.) However, the leadership of the mussies in Australia ... the imams, mullahs, muktahs and sheiks ... are not in favour of the muslims integrating into Australia. Their policy is to develop a 'parallel society' on this continent. This traitorous concept, applied to Holland, is what has now got the Dutch Labor Party reaching for the alarm bell.

What is a 'parallel society'? This is an islamic program whereby they pretend as much as possible that they are living in the seventh century and we little aussie mugs provide the rest. Islamic countries are backward. This is an observable fact around the world. (Travelers to Malaysia see a society built by non muslims; a society built by Indians and Chinese who are Hindu and Christian.) Islamically organized societies lack proper facilities for water, sewerage, non torturing police, modern science based education, freedom of expression, equality between muslims and non muslims and between men and women. So, in Australia, we would provide all the aspects of society that they want but they would provide for themselves for the inequality of men and women, the suppression of freedom of expression, female genital mutilation ( re-appearing in Australia), forced marriages, shariah law which always gives the man what he wants etc.

The hundred approx muslim clerics here are busy (with Wahhabbi money) consolidating their grip on the lives and souls of sunni muslims in Australia ... no-one seems to care in the slightest. I have a connection to a fellow who works for national security. He says that ASIO and other groups are all over the muslim communities; they cannot cough without some security agent saying 'gezundheit'. A slow steady construction of an islamic 'parallel society' in Australia is actually taking place right now; most muslims in Australia don't want it, but they have no allies in government or the administration of the society to help them resist it.

Now that we have a PM who is a church goer perhaps we can hope that he will be able to soon see that Islam is fundamentally a geo-political enterprise (unnervingly close to German National Socialism of unlamented memory). This arabian supremacism is wrapped in 'religious' clothing because in the seventh century all ideas had to be religiously based.

Today we can distinguish between politics and religion, disease and God. Islam is politics. The Cabinet has to grasp this nettle and move on from this point of awareness. The Dutch tried the path of 'tolerance' by accepting that Islam is a religion. They now can see that Islam is actually politics hiding behind 'alleluias' and 'hosannas'; the raising of hands and the bending of knees. This move by the Dutch Labor Party will very likely see the Party win the next Dutch election. We in Australia should lift our vision and game and reach out to those sunni muslims who do not want to be enslaved by seventh century imams operating from Lakemba and Preston. The government needs to take action action to prevent the construction of an islamic 'parallel society' before it is too late. Howard let them get their foot in the door and start building and now Rudd's doing nothing. Can we hopelessly vain and egotistical Australians actually learn from our Dutch colleagues? The signs don't look good.

Good to know ASIO is out there William of Young.

We dont often hear they are still breathing:)

Maybe they ought to look into 'Mosques as arsenals'.

If Islam here is building a parallel society they might just need, or feel they need, guns for the great mission.
Ive heard stories that some have stored up guns for the day of Jihad in Australia.

We are so stupid as a country as to allow Defence to remain at 3rd world levels... decades and decades...whilst sedition quietly moves forward.

Jack Burrell was saying in his book WHAT WILL BECOME OF AUSTRALIA way back in the mid-70's that there were "men of dark countenances" plotting against Australia.

That would be from within... as well as from without... from the near north of our great land.

Why wouldnt there have been quiet two-way chit-chats between Islam here and Islam in Indonesia about "OZ under Sharia Law".

http://whatwillbecomeofaustraliajackburrell.blogspot.com/

Gibo, thats why you carry a cross and bible mate, your safe and only the taxman will get you!

Ozzie are you are aware that you are an immigrant?

All most of you younger guys seem to want is more war war war, as Churchill intimated at one time.

Yet though the same Churchill was forced to change his mind once again with the rise of Hitler, one wonders what Churchill would do with today's Middle East problem.

Would he do the same as he did against the anti-colonial Iraqis in 1922, bombing them with mustard gas, or would he have learnt from the past that to decimate and wipe out is not the only way to solve a problem.

Indeed, even the CIA has talked about how Western Payback can be ten to twenty times heavier than even the results of Islamic terrorism.

As has been also shown with Israeli Payback against the Palestinians right now.

It is so strange how in our academic areas we can discuss sharing the blame or sharing the guilt with our enemies, but one could say that as a historian studying our arrogant Western actions through history makes one wonder if we have ever thought about making peace with our duskier world neighbours in a more sensible non-murderous way?

Cheers, BB, WA.

The hate filled eyes of the demonstrators here in Australia against Israel here in Australia really says it all. Not a peep from them about rocket attacks or suicide bombers that their brotherhood inflict daily on Israel. The supporters of Hamas are a disgrace and to think that we allow them to immigrate and poop on our country after destroying their own is unbelievably stupid.

I notice it took quite a few posts before someone had to blame the US for the actions of these terrorists (HAMAS). Some people can't help but to be blinded by their dogmas.

Harry,

You say >> “The Israeli UN ambassador ... said that Israel intended to wipe out Hamas ...”

If you can’t see a difference between Hamas promising to wipe out Israel and kill or expel all the Israelis, and Israel threatening to kill all the members of a terrorist organisation, there is something wrong with you. An equivalent statement on behalf of the Israeli UN ambassador would be to promise to wipe out Gaza, or Palestine. Clearly they said nothing of the kind

You say >> “I believe the ... first step should come from the stronger side. “

I see. What would you call the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza? Hamas and their cronies haven’t used this chance for peace. They have merely moved their missile batteries closer to Israel. How can Israel make the first move with an organisation which is committed to Israel’s complete destruction? Haven’t you read Hamas Charter? Or do you simply not believe what they themselves are telling you?

Keith,

I really expected something a little more balanced form you. You normally provide evidence for your claims. I just cannot see how you can justify this idea that Israel is the only party lying, the only party to blame. And where do you get the idea that the West is turning against Israel?

You say >> “The western media is now so opinionated and biased ... it is simply no longer trusted ...”

I find this simply astounding. How about some evidence for this.

You say >> “the result of the ... Palestinian elections ... which saw Hamas elected as the Government ... resulted in Gaza being invaded ...”

Even if Hamas are the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people, and I doubt that, they are committed to Israel’s destruction. How is the fact that they were elected relevant to Israel’s right to defend itself? Of course Israel would prefer that the Palestinian Authority represented the Palestinian people. The Authority isn’t committed to driving every Jew out Israel. It’s hardly surprising or even unreasonable that Israel would attempt to assist the Palestinian Authority.

WHAT A DAY...... this was quite something.

-RESISTANCE.
Opened with a discussion on phone with "Khalid" from Melbourne "Resistance" (a communist group running a 'Pro Gaza' protest rally today) Although a communist by ideology, he has an 'Orthodox' Christian heritage from Lebanon. 0418 819 548 if you wish to know how 'David' came across to him..by all means call him and ask.

-RALLY. 2.00pm at State library. Palestinians, socialists and anti war people gathered to protest "Israel's Massacre of Gaza"

I rocked up with my 'sign' and plonked myself on the sidewalk, and it didn't take long for some people to notice my 'sign' was not in the same tone as the rest. I had some good conversations with various parties, but..then there was one...from a woman

-REVILED.. who cursed me in both english and arabic, and threatened me with the wrath of Hezbollah.
When the police saw my sign, they asked me to move on as they did not want conflict between groups. They informed me of 'The Israeli' demonstration at Parliament house and I happily moved to that.

-REWARDED. as I was walking up Bourke street a middle eastern man saw my sign and gave me the thumbs up. (My sign declared Hamas a terrorist group) This surprised me, so I asked his background. "Iraqi Christian"..well that said it all. We embraced..and I continued up to Parliament house.

-REJOICING. The pro Israel rally was in full swing..what a relIEF to see Jews actually caring enough about their own destiny in Melbourne.
Had a wonderful conversation with a Jewish man in his late 40s..who tried to convert me to Judaism :)

-REVELATION.... it was abundantly clear that most of the 'positions' people adopt on the ME is "emotion" based. Just show a few images of hurt children on TV and that's it... no critical analysis of the reasons..and worse..the ANTI WAR mob were noticably ABSENT when HAMAS was hurling rockets indiscriminantly at Israeli women and children..and they got a mouth full from me on that score.

Paul, if you want to get rude and generally ill-mannered, then that is your right, but I don't think it does much for you or your point of view. I can see the difference between the two positions which is why I wrote "The Israeli UN ambassador only this week said that Israel intended to wipe out Hamas, so your argument crumbles a bit." I did not say your argument is countered, or knocked out ... I merely said it crumbled a bit, because both sides are now calling for the knocking out or obliterating of the other.
I acknowledge too that Israel pulled out of Gaza, and the reasons are too complex for a short post such as this. Pulling out of Gaza was a concession of sorts, but it was not part of a structured plan to peace, more like a convenience to Israel.
I do not think it is worth trying to work out who is the biggest sinner in this from the time of Ben Gurion's terrorist attack on the British hotel; the road to peace is difficult and certainly not linear. Five generations of Palestinians living as refugees in their own country will not be forgotten just because Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. There is going to have to be a certain amount of "turning the other cheek", and this is not easy. But one of the pre-requisites is to try to understand the position of both protagonists, rather than just be bellicose and bloody-minded.

'Hamas' is not synonymous with 'Palestine'. I would even contend that Hamas causes a great deal of harm to the Palestinian cause. It is true that there are serious humanitarian concerns in Gaza. However, these issues are multiplied by a leadership that has a greater zeal for hard-line Islamism, and the destruction of Israel, than what it has for its own people.

Hamas, where is a government that represents the Palestinian people responsibly? What about an attempt to build infrastructure that exceeds third-world levels? Israel's withdrawal from Gaza gave the opportunity to show that you are more concerned with your people's well-being than with murdering Israel.

I believe that a co-operative Palestinian leadership, with it's people as the number-one concern, would attract even greater levels of aid than what already pours into the territories. Perhaps even enough to build a viable state from the ground up.

Alas, the rockets continue day and night...

Hamas, you are a terrorist to your own people.

Whilst there's not much I am able to add to this discussion at the moment, I thought the following from a Jewish American Australian resident is at least as good as anything else which has been posted here:

TITLE:  Demonstrate against Qassams and Israeli aggression, both

The world cries in sympathy for Gaza residents enduring a ninth day
of merciless pounding - from land, sea, and air - by Israeli
soldiers.  Struggling to survive after 18 months of extreme
deprivation, pushing 80% of Gazans into abject poverty, unable to
feed or support themselves.

Pro-Gaza demonstrations abound; sympathy rightfully placed.

Among the 1.5-million people crammed into the most densely populated
360 square kilometres on earth (barely 140 square miles), a tiny
fraction are Hamas members, and far fewer fire Qassams - Israel's
justification for their current attacks.

Since 2001, when Qassams were introduced, more than 4,000 Qassams
have been fired, and a similar number of mortars.  Some days bring
nearly 200 Qassams and rockets, raining on Israeli citizens living
well within the 1949 armistice lines.

About 30 Israelis have died; more than 400 wounded.

Israelis around Gaza live in daily fear - Israelis wanting only
security for themselves, a better life for their children, and
living peacefully with their neighbours.

What most Gaza residents desire for themselves and their children, too.

Nine days of Israeli bombs and bullets, and nearly 450 Gazans are
dead - about 1/4 of them women and children, 2,000 wounded - many
civilians.  Terrorising Gaza civilians.

Hamas's response?

30-100 Qassams and rockets fired into Israel daily - which triggered
Israel's violent onslaught.  Terrorising Israeli civilians.

I'll be at the next pro-Gaza demonstration, holding the banner
imploring Israel to cease immediately its violence in Gaza - and
demanding Hamas to stop lobbing Qassams into Israel.

---

(To be honest, I can't be sure if the above is unfair to Israel, Hamas, both, or neither.)

I have to laugh, I waited to see who was here...

Firstly, here is an excellent piece on the legal principles under discussion (http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/dershowitz/entry/israel_s_actions_are_lawful), anyone wishing to challenge Messr Dershowitz's understanding of International Law, feel free - tell HIM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz) about it.

As to the current operation, Cast Lead, a small nation has democratically chosen leaders who ran on a platform of firing artillery at the much stronger State on the border, that they are now suffering the military consequences of that idiocy is best described as C'est le guerre.

Militarily, the IDF has broken the strip into 3 portions, which I'd suspect they intend to neutralise & clear one at a time... As sympathetic detonation will remove roadside bombs & improvised devices, I'd hope they use artillery on a massive scale (from the footage to date, it looks like they are prepared to)...

I'd also suspect the IDF watched the battle for Falujah very closely... Expect to see the same tactics used here, advise all non-combatants to evacuate, screen them and secure them for the UN to access.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza

Be interesting to see what weapons Hamas comes out with in the next week

Haganah Bet

Good Article and many valuable comments.

It is difficult to report on a region when the lens is being panned from the outside, when the intensity is as highly charged as this conflict is and where the warts of international factional complexity can make it unsafe if you should get it wrong. Everyone distrusts everyone else and as Israel dominates most, it is harder during a festive season to get the supports you might need to surround the information and debate required to motivate people and their governments to take action against the many many forms of violence in operation here.

Unsaid is Iran and Israel and American interests. Worst is the connections you make across regions once you begin to discuss difficulties when our best talkbalk experts are off on their break.

I am not happy with world leaders pandering to either American or Israelis agendas present. I am furious where we have another war adding to some 100 or so other wars, three of which are most vivid for their propaganda and failed rhetoric.

Just for measure I consider the Australian political climate unstable. This is because our own strength to help mediate is being drained by the childish tattles rather than intelligent debate in the ACT. I add that while I am critical of all prattling parrots, it is that we need to stand up to government to keep citizenship viable and ought not to be discouraged by the heat. We need substance on these issues and pandering to niche cultures because we fear, must be overcome.

Israel is on the offensive, so is America and any other Nation, Corporation or citizen who can't see the poverty and terror underlying Palestinia's situation.

To expect more from the media we need to expect more from ourselves. The issues are greater than what we think and if we are to see non-violence as a solution than each and everyone of us must become involved.

As each person dies, it is another life lost.

http://www.miacat.com
.

Kipp.
I woudnt make too much fun of it all.
Most of you younger guys are going to live long enough to do national service on Australian soil against an asian intruder.

Did you have a good read of my site?

http://whatwillbecomeofaustraliajackburrell.blogspot.com/

*Theres a high probability, with so many revelations from The Lord (visions, words of knowledge and prophecies), that there is much truth in what has been sent to the christians, as warnings about the sins of the Australian people, of it all coming to pass.

Look at China!
She smiles at everyone and pretends to be a good friend...yet she builds her armies for the outward march. She appears to be the invader of christian prophecies.

God has little love for the abortions, sexual perversion, the porn, the idolatry, our their easy going ways.

Allowing an invader is a 'known way' God has of punishing nations for their sinful ways.

I can't believe you are even allowed to write columns given your complete ignorance about the situation.

Lowenstein likely doesn't read these comments, and thus can't learn from his mistakes, but this is the guy that tried to say Israel was an apartheid state!

Unless the definition has changed to include allowing ethnic groups to live in peace - even when they openly call for your destruction as many Arab-Israeli's do - or

He tried to say they close off roads for Jews, but that was nonsense and I remember his face looking all embarressed when he was on TV, although the stubborn ignoramus wouldn't retract his bizarre statement. The IDF closed off roads for Israeli's, which includes Arabs, when near Palestinian areas.

He is trying to do the same here, grasping for a straw! But Lowenstein, Israel bombing a tunnel smuggling weapons is not the first act of aggression. The terms of the ceasefire are no smuggling of weapons from Egypt!

They broke it, they should be punished, collectively, because just like we hear Muslims say when they bomb our trains (you voted for Blair or Bush) they voted for the genocidal lunatics Hamas.

Shame. What utter bigots. And the fact that Hamas in-bred hick leaders know Israel won't bomb while their 4 wives and litters are around (glad Israel changed that dumb policy, and good on them for bombing mosques storing weapons - all the IDF need to realise now is that mosques themselves are weapons and bomb them too) shows they know IDF values are civilised compared to their own!

Polycarp, if I had known you were placarding melbourne yesterday, I would have been happy to walk with you. Pro-Commie and Pro-Palestinians share my contempt, as well as them sharing a lack of reasoning skills, morals and the qualities which will avoid their early extinction.

As Daggett points out “a tiny fraction are Hamas members, and far fewer fire Qassams - Israel's
justification for their current attacks.”

Two points

1 since the death of Arafat and the decline of his political faction, Fateh, Hamas has become the dominant political force and administers what is loosely recognized as the “government” of Gaza.

The proportion who are actually card-carrying Hamas members is, therefore, mere academic observation.

If so few people are actually firing Qassam rockets

Why cannot the acknowledge government of Gaza, Hamas police their territory and arrest those who fire these rockets?

This is a replay of the apologists for anarchy, very few Irishmen were members of the IRA but it did not stop the UK government sending troops into Northern Ireland to defend UK territorial integrity and curb the excesses of self appointed murderers.

Israel, in bringing down the military on Hamas and anyone who supports it either materially, emotionally or simply by silence against their butcherous attacks on Israel, is acting to defend itself against a lawless and murderous enemy which the world has suffered for far too long.

My observation of history, fighting a war absolutely kills more people immediately but fewer over time, when compared to a half hearted “conditional war”.

I trust Israel will fight this war will all the effort needed to eliminate, once and for all, their enemy and the enemy of all nations who respect the rule of law.

The Palestinians are just another example of a failed state and their failure has not been for the lack of external aid which the west has provided nor the willingness of Israel to negotiate (which has, at times, wavered but has, nonetheless, been sincere) it has been on the historic unreasonable expectations, deceit and intransigence of Palestinians

Taking sides in this conflict is really
not going to help anyone. It's only going to add
fuel to the fire with dire results.

From watching the media, and reading the posts
on this thread - it's obvious that it is time
for a radical rethinking of the conflict.

Both sides are convinced that the other side
doesn't care about its stories or suffering.
As Loewenstein points out, this makes
reconciliation next to impossible.

There's no point in blaming one or the other for this
conflict.

There must be a way for Israel to exist
securely while allowing justice for the Palestinian
people. A sustainable future should involve both
of them. Pointing fingers, inciting further
hatred, achieves nothing constructive.

Israel deserves our support, but not at the expense
of the Palestinians. Palestinians should not be
regarded as 'unpeople,' seemingly unworthy of our
sympathy or understanding. Why should Israeli people
be important, but Palestinian people not? This
attitude results in a skewed perspective on the
conflict.

It is time that Israel and the Palestinians met
face to face, listened to each other's grievances,
kept politics out of the discussion, and negotiated
with honesty. As Loewenstein emphasizes, only then,
and on the condition that both Israel and the
Palestinian state achieve safety and security will
this conflict be resolved.

I can hope and pray, but I won't hold my breath.

Foxy “Taking sides in this conflict is really
not going to help anyone. It's only going to add
fuel to the fire with dire results.”

‘dire results’ must be a rhetorical comment, I can think of little which is more dire than tanks rumbling through your living room, especially when you invited them in by firing rockets at them.

Margaret Thatcher had a couple of things to say about taking sides too

Lightly “Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides.”

With more gravitas

“ To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects.”

“Taking sides” is in the nature of people.

If we left everything to those who cannot take sides or come to a decision or resolution, we would still be hunter gatherers, living in caves and the Palestinians would have been extinct years ago, because of inter-clan warfare and the Palestinian strategy, where they consistently switch between firing rockets and adopting the fetal position, thereby securing their position at the bottom of the pecking order,

"It is time that Israel and the Palestinians met
face to face, listened to each other's grievances,
kept politics out of the discussion, and negotiated
with honesty. "

Check your history, you will find the last few decades are littered with the agreements Israel has agreed to and the Palkestinians have rejected. That is why Israel & Jordan, Israel and Egypt have instituted successful peace accords, Jordan kicked Arafat & his rabble out and Egypt maintains a border with Gaza.

Dear Col,

Thank You for responding to my post and for
the quotes from Margaret Thatcher.

I respect the right for you to have your opinion,
however I also believe that there must be as
I stated in my post, a radical re-think on this
issue. No one has a monopoly on suffering.
But only one side is in the position to end
the occupation and to finally recognise that
they both are historically destined to share the
same homeland. A democratic state can not continue
to maintain a brutal occupation over another
people for over 40 years and continue to claim
that they are doing it in the name of 'security.'

Peace should not only be acceptable on Israel's
terms.

Well said, Foxy.
I pick on Col Rouge only because his is the post you are responding to, but there are many others posting here to whom my comments could refer.
If there is such a thing as a basic problem, I fear that it is that there are too many Col Rouges - not only here in Australia, but also in Israel and Gaza (and elsewhere of course) who respond to their primitive instincts rather pushing forward to an enlightened world community.
It is only when we see that people behave in a certain way because of the environment in which they live (not wanting to open up a nature vs nurture debate), and to change that environment to reduce their hatreds, that progress will be made. Col might argue that we can change that environment by bombing one side into oblivion, but as an atheist and a humanist, I strongly reject that attitude.
The evolution does take time, and there will be plenty of going forward and going back, but at least the Col Rouges of this world (again, my apologies for using you as the example, Col) are well educated, and can think, and there is a chance that their attitude will change to one of more tolerance. Let us hope it is sooner rather than later,

Hamas is a Creation of Mossad/by Hassane Zerouky http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html

the Mossad/Israel's"Institute for Intelligence and'Special'Tasks" supported the creation of hammas...while Arafat's Fatah'Movement'were subjected to the most brutal form of repression and intimidation
.

,to push the'Islamists'against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation(PLO)"..Prime-Minister Golda/Meir,saw this as a an opportunity to counterbalance the rise of Arafat’s'Fatah-movement.

the Islamic associations and the university]were authorized to receive money payments from abroad...."The Real Goal/Gaza Assault?..Jonathan Cook/Counterpunch/January

Gaza,refugee camp...,is a death trap.]..and will require the permanent military reoccupation of Gaza...to assume responsibility for the'welfare'of the local civilian population,

an invasion of Gaza to overthrow'Hamas'is a reversal of the trend in Israeli policy since the'Oslo'process of the early 1990s...Naively,Arafat assumed he was leading a government-in-waiting.

In truth,he simply became Israel’s chief security/oppression contractor.

Arafat was tolerated during the 1990s because he did not stop Israel’s effective annexation of large parts of the West Bank through the rapid expansion of settlements and increasingly harsh movement restrictions on Palestinians...[while preparing for a statehood that never arrived.]lol

The savage blockade deprived Gaza’s population of essentials..Israel has barely bothered to hit the Hamas'leadership'..or its military wing...it has killed substantial numbers of'ordinary'policemen,the guarantors of'law and order'in Gaza.

Israel/settlers apparently hope to persuade the Hamas leadership,as it did Arafat,that its best interests are served by co-operating with Israel...

israel and Hamas are almost certain in'the end'to agree to another ceasefire...in doing so,Hamas,like Arafat before it,loses sight of its primary task:to force Israel to end its occupation...but ask why settlers want talmud law?

http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
quotations;from the Soncino Edition of the Talmud,(Book)

YEBAMOTH,60b...Rabbi.Ramanos who conducted an inquiry and'found'in it the daughter of a'proselyte'who was under the age of three years and one day(14),and Rabbi declared her eligible to live with a priest(15)."

(footnotes)"(13)A proselyte under the age of three years and one day may be married by a priest...(14)And was married to a priest.(15)i.e.,permitted to continue to live with her'husband'."

(Book)

SANHEDRIN,55b-55a:"What is meant by this?Rab said:Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is not deemed as pederasty with a child above that.

(footnotes)"(1)The reference is to..the passive..'subject'/victim..of sodomy

Wake up everyone;
There is no solution to this dispute.
Accept that some disputes have no solution.

Don't worry about it !

I'm all for your concept concerning hatred between Jews and Arabs, Harry G.

Thus to weigh it up, could say it has become a case between Arab resentment and Israeli arrogance.

Therefore as it has been over two thousand years since the Jews had a say in Palestine, Israeli arrogance should be calmed down by a very competent United Nations with former Pax Americana now simply taking a back seat.

Cheers, BB, WA.

"Moawiya Hassanein, head of Gaza medical emergency services, told AFP the number of Palestinians killed since the Israeli operation was launched on December 27 was now 512, including 87 children, with more tan 2,500 wounded."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iZCONo8ygEjHolVWwW7wN50I0suQ

Further to my last post - see the following article

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230733181633&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

All involved infantry units (a MASSIVE change in thinking for Israel, but the IDF is now led by an infantry General) have been trained intensively for urban/built up area warfare.

The position is extremely similar to that in Falujah prior to the USMC's attack on the same, so the response is likely to be similar too.

Expect to see Gaza fully surrounded, the citizen's advised that given their failure to elect a government capable of governing their own city peaceably, that they are required to move out for a period.

The rest will proceed almost the same as Falujah... Massive artillery preparation, followed closely by an infantry assault.

There is no relevant "Occupied Territory" argument, it is dead in the water in Gaza, Israel handed over the territory at issue.

As to the moral equivalency argument, the people elected a government who chose to wage war against their inestimably stronger neighbour, as I said, c'est la guerre.

The Grad Rocket is an artillery rocket (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21), used extensively by ex-Warsaw Pact countries, it is NOT homemade, any more than the Merkava IV's being used in response. The fact it's operator's to date have been inadequately trained and/or inept, doesn't change the nature of the weapon ( see http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1210668635737&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).

For those who continue to trumpet bizarre racial theories, perhaps the UN can determine those likely to commit such crimes by the exact science of phrenology?

A question on timing: Everyone is aware that Barak Obama will be inaugurated as US President in just over two weeks. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that the Israeli decision-makers, knowing well that the change in the White House could signal a more active, positive US policy vis-a-vis the Middle East, felt it was "now or never"?

I don't think President elect Obama will be effective in handling the situation between Israel and Hamas, I am saying this for a number of reasons.
1. President elect Obama never served in the USAF and doesn't know anything about war, especially the Middle Eastern conflict. After 140 days in the Senate, he was elected a president. His inexperience have already been felt when he made conflicting remarks on Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and off course, Israel and Palestine. There is a very huge chance that President elect Obama will be effective in handling the situation.
2. President elect Obama decided to pick a Jewish man as his chief of staff (the brain behind the presidents domestic and foreign policy). He was the Chief of Staff for Bill Clinton, and many people know that Clinton was the softest of all Presidents when it comes to Middle Eastern issue. President elect Obama is likely to be a pro-Israeli president. In a statement made a few days ago, Obama said that if someone sent missiles to his home where his children live, he would do everything to protect them. Such statement had been the justification of the invasion by Israel.
3. President elect Obama is elected by Americans and American issues must and will be his priority. Which means that majority of Americans are pro-Israel and it will be his downfall if he chose to do the opposite. US and other major countries in the world also declared Hamas as a terrorist organization.
Right now President elect Obama is running out of ideas.
With that said, the Arab world may never see their favorite man on their side. He is an America, a country that supports Israel 100% of the time and whose ballots did President elect Obama entered the White House.

Dear Harry G (and MX2)

I'll try to make this a very short post so as not to bring too many issues at one go.

HAMAS CHARTER.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

First..note the source.. Yale Law school. This is from a documentary history of the conflict..including various UN resolutions.

FIRST WORDS: (Addressed to the Muslims)

"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind:"

SAME PAGE

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

REQUEST to you.. HARRY G. Please look at that document, note what it says... and try to explain to us exactly how you would respond to this if you were an Israeli.
OR... If Indonesia had a similar document regarding Australia... how you as an Australian would respond to it? Do you see any room for 'negotiation'?

Once we determine this issue, we will know exactly where you stand regarding those committed to genocide. Then..we can speak from a better understanding of whether you support genocide of Israel or not.

Does this insight not help you to understand why Israel is doing what it is doing right now? Does it not help you to understand why Hamas continues launching rockets at Israeli towns? It has nothing to do with minor time line scurmishes or breaking of cease fires..but EV-erything to do with the overiding ideology.

matangi you are correct re obama

the link reveals a list of those in obama's elect,with strong ties into israel by virtue of their religious beliefs

[it is quite a loaded up field]

http://www.civilrights.org.nz/forum/index.php?topic=364.msg1062;topicseen#msg1062

asnyhow dont be expecting nothing from usa
[except more aid ,90 billion so far]
more bombs and more winks

ps it has occured to me that EVEN aid given to palistein has to go through israel

noting a lot of cash 'aid' will be forthcomming
as a result of this attack to 'rebuild
that us bombs are destroying

and every penny goes into/through israel

[it is not beyond the realm of an israelie think tank having the idea that the huge cash injection to rebuild the war torn gaza will yet further proffit israel, who does quite well from seizing the assets [as well as the elected palistein parlement[when it isnt'surgiclly'murdering them ,or locking them into jail without trial

the israel cure for the cash crisis will have figured the 're-build funds' into the equation ,as well as the free prison labour and many other facts and advantages phycopaths are able to concieve to justify murder

have you noted how the murderers are on tv actually smuggly smiling , is that the predicted collective euphoria predicted in the bible [or simple religious mania[zeal]

jesus weeps ,who woulda thunk the end time could be so much fun for the so many trying to bring armogeddon and the faulse prince of peace..mess-iah that will destroy palistein for them

obama may well be mabos ,more of the bloody same

all life is sacred...[because he who gave it is sacred]
that we did to the least we did to him

what happend to love god [love neighbour]?
why is the pope so silent?

Polycarp, thanks for your concerns.
I do have a fairly good understanding of the issues surrounding the conflict; I do have a fairly good understanding of Hamas's vows and its policies. I do also understand the view that the best way to world peace is to kill everybody that you don't agree with, or does not agree with you.
Understanding is a necessary pre-requisite to resolving the conflict, but not the only one. I reject the "peace by killing everybody" because it is against my basic humanist (as well as humanitarian) views. If Indonesia were to start bombing us, I would want to know why, and try to resolve their particular grievance. I would not attempt to retaliate by bombing them into oblivion.
There is a letter in today's Sydney Morning Herald by a Russell Mills which would better explain my view as to what Israel should be doing. I accept there are risks associated with this (bombing Hamas into oblivion carries relatively little risk to Israel - only the world's opprobrium, and ongoing sniping from its neighbours) but I believe itshould be the model used for resolving this and other conflicts, rather than bullying by the mighty. I believe that being fair to all sides is the long term solution to conflict. Anything else breeds resentment, hatred, and conflict.

If Indonesia or any other nation bombed Australia we wouldn't be entering into secular humanist discussions. we would be hitting back and rightly so.
Hamas do not have negotiation in their dictionary; nor do they respect the rights of Jews to their own State.
The UN offered a two State solution in 1947 which the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours rejected.
The secular liberal journalists are perpetuating false hopes and creating a terrible 'poor sorry me' wallowing type mentality through thier ideology of appeasement with Islamicists. The populations of the West are being fed on this rubbish which is sickening.
Arabs know the solution now is to clear out gaza and send these whingers to their existing Palestinian homeland which is callec Jordan. Jordan contains within its own borders 77% of the former British mandate of Palestine.

"The Palestinian argument should not be resolved just on Israel's terms"

Keep it up, Foxy, but please remember that it is only a strong UN that can do what you want.

And unfortunately a UN can only be fair if it follows Kantian procedure, not just to be backed by the world's strongest nation, but by a democratic Federation of Nations.

Cheers, BB, WA.

Polycarp, in an earlier post I responded to your request to me to "try to explain (to us) exactly how you would respond to this if you were an Israeli." I hope I have answered the question for you. And to put it another way, I would do my best to come up with a compromise that everyone would be happy with. Yes, a big ask, I know, and humanity has not done so well as I might like (I originally typed "we might like", but perhaps I should not be including you) but I do think we (society in general) are actually getting better at it as the years progress. The Israeli/US alliance has got a great opportunity to set the standard.
Having responded to your request, would you now like to tell me what you would do, if you were a 5th generation Palestinian refugee, living in squalor, disappointed after many attempts at peace (and oh so close with the Oslo and Camp David accords), living in a land which belonged to your recent ancestors, which was taken from you by a UN resolution only passed after frantic bribing by the USA (and I don't think the Palestinians even had a vote!)?
Your response might make interesting reading for many of us, and might make your viewpoint more understandable to those of us lacking your clear black and white vision.
It is all hypothetical, of course, but I hope I would try to negotiate a peace deal which was fair and balanced. I hope my first reaction would not be to fire rockets randomly towards the aggressor, but it seems that might be your approach. Over to you.

HarryG,

Your sentiments are admirable, but they don’t acknowledge the reality of the situation.

Israel runs very real risks by not responding to Hamas violence.

Hamas military leaders have taken heart and more importantly resolve from a number of Israeli and Arab actions you might consider sensible or justified.

1) The refusal to respond to attacks from Iraq during the first gulf war damaged Israel’s deterrence

2) The unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza strip was not seen as an act of goodwill. It was interpreted as weakness.

3) The failure to achieve all its objectives in the Lebanon war of 2006 was seen as a further sign of weakness

4) Israel’s preparedness to negotiate is also seen by Hamas as a weakness.

5) Failure to respond to the breaking of the ceasefire further signalled a weakness in Israeli resolve.

6) Arab/Muslim birth rates will result in Arabs becoming a majority in Israel within the next 30-50 years.

These things together have given Hamas renewed hope of totally defeating Israel and achieving all the aims they laid out in their charter. This being the case, Hamas are not interested in peace now. Temporary truces are therefore merely opportunities to rearm and rebuild for the next battle, and not stepping stones to peace as many who should know better would like to believe.

The Israelis, lacking a partner in peace, must follow a short term strategy of stopping the rockets, and hope that the Hamas leadership will see that Israel cannot be defeated militarily. A byproduct of this offensive will be that Hamas will understand Israel cannot be attacked without great cost.

This is a rather harsh way to go about things, but I cannot see any other way for Israel. There is no peace without both parties wanting it. The result is a human tragedy, but hopefully this will encourage Hamas back to the negotiating table and cost less in lives than a never ending low level conflict undoubtedly would.

Of course this last hope is a rather forlorn one, which is why Israel is limited to short term solutions

There was a time when the Palestine leadership was given the opportunity to establish a State of its own, it was rejected by Arafat and later by Hamas government. Their refusal to accept this proposal meant only one thing, the ultimate eradication of the Jewish State. Jews on the other hand argued that Israel belongs to the Jews people until they were scattered by European occupation. These two conflicting arguments will remain as they are as long as there is Islam and Judaism next door, which means that one must ceased to let the other one exist. Refusing to co-exist, empowers this deadlock.
The Palestinians struggled has been fueled by the Arab nations until Egypt backed down, after waging three unsuccessful war against Israel, and recognized Israel. Iran and Syria continued their support for anti-Israel movements led by Hamas to this day.
But what many people failed to see is that this is a war fought in the days of the David to this very day, a struggle of faith or religious beliefs. When you have a state that fights to protect its citizen and an army fighting for martyrdom, there is no solution but to let them fight it out. Europe is peaceful today after all the evil states were brought down! So let Israel or Hamas prevail.
It is hard to fathom the fact that innocent lives are lost in the battle between Hamas and Israel, or in any other conflicts, but innocent Gaza citizens knew very well that they elected a party that vowed to destroyed Israel and signed up for suicide mission in Israel.
Since Israeli pulled out of Gaza and signed a deal with Abas, brokered by Egypt, Hamas kept shelling Israeli towns. For 6 MONTHS, Hamas missiles struck deeper into Israel, an indication that the Hamas had acquired more sophisticated arsenals. Should Israel wait?
Last week, Israel implemented the first responsibility of state, i.e. protecting its citizens. Imagine living in a neighborhood that hits by rockets everyday for 6 MONTHS... with that, IDF received overwhelming support from Israelis to retaliate so be it!

77% of Palestine is contained within the nation State of Jordan.
Jordanians are Palestinians and as such ought to have offered rural or residential land gratis to their compatriots from Gaza and the West Bank.
The Queen of Jordan has been making all these morally toned speeches to the international press but should instead do her own people a favour and offer immigration to the east of Israel where the Kingdom of Jordan, which is Palestine already, could easily take them all in.

Lowenstein and Slezak have put forward such a considered and insightful opinion piece! Kudos to both. It is indeed illuminating to discover that the total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landing in Israeli territory in 2008, which has effectively placed 15% of the total Israeli population at risk, constitutes little more than "minor damage" and, clearly, poses minimal risk. Israelis should be able to withstand the barrage of Qassam rockets with sanguine tolerance and acceptance. And if constant rocket fire proves too much for the Israelis to bear - they can always move. Lowenstein and Slezak brilliantly "urg[e] negotiation with Hamas as the legitimate elected government." Peace can only be achieved by accepting Hamas' reasonable terms. Furthermore, the Hamas Charter sets out practical guidelines for the realization of said peace. Article Seven of the Charter notes that 'the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).'

What is so unreasonable about such a political manifesto? And why do the Israelis still persist in their refusal to negotiate with Hamas? Lowenstein and Slezak are justly outraged. Perhaps Israeli intractability has its roots in the infamous Gharkad tree. The UN Security Council should focus its efforts on finding, and uprooting, this Gharkad obstacle to peace. There can be no other reasonable explanation for the unremitting tragedy that is the Middle East. Get rid of that Gharkad tree - perhaps then, people throughout the region can stop eating grass and feast on olive branches instead.

Scriblerus the Gharkad tree
has only 6 branches,

i would ascibe this as the main reason the media barely is covering the gaza slaughter issue's..[the reason for the distorted media lens]

i recall in the old tesiment the stars of media and sharon must fall

might be relitive in these times

http://www.uwm.edu/People/woodsa/chart.html

In 1983,50 corporations controlled the vast majority of all news media in the U.S. At the time, Ben Bagdikian was called "alarmist" for pointing this out in his book,The Media Monopoly.

In his 4th edition, published in 1992,he wrote "in the U.S., fewer than two dozen of these extraordinary creatures own and operate 90% of the mass media" -- controlling almost all of America's newspapers, magazines, TV and radio stations, books, records, movies, videos, wire services and photo agencies.

He predicted then that eventually this number would fall to about half a dozen companies. This was greeted with skepticism at the time. When the 6th edition of The Media Monopoly was published in 2000, the number had fallen to six.

Since then, there have been more mergers and the scope has expanded to include new media like the Internet market. More than 1 in 4 Internet users in the U.S. now log in with AOL Time-Warner, the world's largest media corporation.

In 2004, Bagdikian's revised and expanded book, The New Media Monopoly, shows that only 5 huge corporations -- Time Warner, Disney, Murdoch's News Corporation, Bertelsmann of Germany, and Viacom (formerly CBS) -- now control most of the media industry in the U.S. General Electric's NBC is a close sixth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_of_media_ownership

us media is controlled by 5 coorperations

http://www.corporations.org/media/

Dear ‘one under god’, thank you for the information that Garkhad tree has only 6 branches. Clearly this only highlights the extent to which malevolent forces must be involved in Israel’s continued existence. How else to explain how 7 million people are able to hide under 6 branches. It must be the devil’s work.

Alas, the death of irony! QED.

PaulL, Thanks for your post. You say "my sentiments are admirable", for which I thank you, but does it not follow, therefore, that yours are not? You have listed several points regarding why Israel feels threatened, and I cannot disagree with the essence of the points you are making. Both sides feel threatened by the other, both with good reason. There is conflict. We are not denying this. I am proposing better efforts towards peace, resolving the conflict, without resorting to violence. A very difficult ask, I admit, but one which is nevertheless possible. The difference between you and me, I think, can be summarised by as follows: I want to continue attempting that peace process, you are exhausted by it all and wish to resolve by force, resulting in death, maiming and injury. I hope you are not right, though I cannot guarantee that you are wrong.
I am still buoyed by the fact that we did come reasonably close back in 1994 when Arafat, Rabin and Peres shared the peace prize. That foundered over the carve up of Jerusalem (religion is always a problem!) and then Rabin was assassinated by a right-wing Israeli (a hero to many Israelis today, because they did not, and do not, want concessions made).
Perhaps, soon, the right mix of leaders will arrive; leaders who search for justice and peace, rather than victory. They are certainly not there now, nor in sight. Bush was never a help, and the likes of Netanyahu, Olmert and their cohorts can smell the blood of victory. Abbas seems as if he could be right for the occasion; most Palistinians do seem to have had the fight crushed out of them. Obama is not likely to make things much better, because he too will rely on the votes of American Jews.
You can tell I am not terribly optimistic, but as you agree, "my sentiments are admirable" so they deserve support.
By the way, I wonder what happened to Polycarp. I answered his "challenge", but when I issued the same one back, he has gone quiet.

Paul,L ... I watched SBS and ABC News tonight, as probably you did too, and as I saw the bodies of dead and injured people, and listened to the UN representative tell of the horrors of the bombing of the UN schools (I don't know why Hamas just don't rule off areas, put signs on them saying "militants only", tell Israelis GPS coordinates and fight like men with their rockets against IDF) I thought of you. You seem like a reasonably pleasant chap, educated enough to string words together in a meaningful, coherent way, and logical enough to decide "it's either long term small scale warfare or a bloody none-shall-survive, bully-boy", yet you exclude categorically the wish for a third way, the ever striving for a peaceful solution. All the world seems to be opposed to the violence, except Israel, the US, and you and your fellow-travellers. I cannot really believe that someone such as you, with the benefit of education and an ability to empathise with others and understand their point of view (even if that ability is not used to its full) can endorse the torture of these people. Have you ever had a limb ripped off your body without anaesthetic and no relief from agony or infection, or cannot you imagine what it may be like? Paul, with respect, it is people like you from whom the Israelis draw their succour. Read some of the other posts here from people advocating the death and destruction approach, and you will realise that you are not like them. Or perhaps you have a religious background, so you think a god is managing this?
At least Obama made some encouraging, though non-committal noises tonight.
Did you support, incidentally, the Russian demolition of Chechnya? Do you believe that the relative peace there, with hatred still simmering, was worth the killing of tens of thousands (and that was only the first uprising)? I doubt that you did. But our media gave a different spin on that. We had sympathies with the underdog on that occasion.
Sleep well, my friend.

HarryG,

You say >> ‘You have listed several points regarding why Israel feels threatened, and I cannot disagree with the essence of the points you are making”

Actually my point was not merely that Israel is threatened. My point is that they have do not have a partner in peace. My point is that Hamas, at this stage, feels that it is in the box seat and therefore has nothing to gain by agreeing to a negotiated peace.

You say >> “. I am proposing better efforts towards peace … A very difficult ask, I admit, but one which is nevertheless possible”

This is an opinion. It is an opinion with which I and many others disagree. As I’ve stated above, besides Israel agreeing to leave the Middle East, Hamas is not interested in a negotiated peace. If you accept this fact as I do, you see that Israel’s choices are severely limited. Basically they can wear the rockets, or they can try and stop them.

You say >> “I want to continue attempting that peace process; you are exhausted by it all and wish to resolve by force …”

No. That’s simply not right. I am not exhausted by the peace process. I legitimately believe it has failed because the Hamas leadership are pursuing total victory. Therefore, they are not interested in a permanent negotiated peace. I believe there is strong evidence to support such a conclusion.

I do not wish for war.

I do not hope that Hamas are wiped out.

I believe that Hamas bears the lion’s share of responsibility for this regression to violence

I believe that Israel has been pushed against a wall with no good choices left.

I do hope that civilians are spared the brunt of the war.

You say >> “the likes of Netanyahu, Olmert and their cohorts can smell the blood of victory”

NO. They’re under no illusion that they are going to eliminate Hamas. They are fully aware that this is not a long term solution and that any victory will be tactical and short lived.

TBC

CONT’

This would be counter productive behaviour if Israel had within its power an offer which Hamas would accept.

But alas it is not so.

You say >> “All the world seems to be opposed to the violence, except Israel, the US … Obama … will rely on the votes of American Jews.

NO. You are neglecting the fact that Palestine has the unconditional support of the largest voting bloc in the UN, the Arab league/Islamic conference. You would also do well to realise that most of the countries backing Palestine do so to avoid raising the ire of their people and losing votes/support. In many European countries it is electoral suicide to support Israel over the Palestinians, whatever the facts. Indeed such support could stir up actual violence, ala the Danish cartoons. This goes doubly for any Islamic or Arab country. Then there are the nations which wish to do harm to the US and its allies, and voting against Israel in the UN achieves that aim.

So I hope you can see that there is no such thing as an independent, non-political response to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

You say >> “I cannot really believe that … you … can endorse the torture of these people. Have you ever had a limb ripped off your body … “

This is a fallacy. I don’t endorse the “torture” of these people. In fact to use such asinine language brings you discredit. Did the allies torture the civilians of Cologne when they took it after crossing the Rhine in 1945? And they took infinitely less care.

Do you imagine that Israelis don’t feel the same pain when one of Hamas’ hundreds of rockets actually hits its target?

You say >> “Paul, with respect, it is people like you from whom the Israelis draw their succour”

With respect, it is also true that Hamas draw succour from people like you. Western activism on this issue encourages Hamas to believe that they can attack Israel at will, and know that the softies in the west will limit any retaliation

Paul.
Glad you deny some of the traits attributed to you, but your denials don't sit well with previous posts.

By peace, I mean the absence of violence, eg Ireland, SouthAfrica, Cyprus, Armenia-Turkey, Korea. We can hope that this absence of violence can eventually restore tolerance and friendship. Was it not a joy to see Amla, Ntini and Smith embracing as they celebrated SouthAfrica's success in cricket. Twenty years ago, Mandela, from his cell, could hardly imagine what would be achieved. Be positive, Paul. Work towards our goals minimising bloodshed, not advocating. Don't give up and resort to the methods of terrorists. We are better than that.

My opinion that peace can be obtained is forged from recent past history, and also forged from personal, commonly held, humanist views. Don't disparage it as just an opinion as if it has no weight.

Original article made the claim that "we are compromised by the media's distorted view of Israeli politics".Are you proving the author's contention?

Most of our talk has centred on Hamas, despised or feared by most of the world; they have no ally in the Arab world except Hezbollah. Hezbollah has been emboldened and its numbers swelled by the recent war with Israel. Though Hamas was democratically elected by the people, I doubt they have popular support now, though they do have the sympathy of Palestinians (opinion gained from snippets of interviews on SBS news).

If Israel were interested in peace with Palestine including a Palestinian state, they should be progressing those talks with Abbas now, marginalising Hamas still further, and gaining kudos from the rest of the world. This is where we clearly disagree. Do you think that if Hamas agreed to, and stuck by, a peace deal, then Israel would leave the occupied territories, pull down the wall, extend a hand of friendship to Palestine? Nations find it difficult to make concessions, but concessions need to be made. This is a major difficulty (let us not forget religion as well, the elephant in the room).
TBC

...continued
Hamas and Hezbollah only exist now because of failure to reach accord over the last several decades. Support for a Palestinian state from the USA is only a recent development. Hilary Clinton has supported a Palestinian state for longer than the US official policy, so despite my pessimism about this aspect of Obama's presidency, there is hope.

What will the present Israeli action spawn? As China rises, the US wonders why it loses respect.

I doubt that the Allies took much care about the civilians in Cologne, and there were plenty of reasons why they didn't. But need to firebomb Dresden? No. Hatred and revenge prevailed.

Did the Americans care much about the civilians of Hiroshima? Probably not, because of the circumstances. Should they have bombed Nagasaki? Probably not. Do you regret raising the red herring of Cologne. Asinine indeed! Pots and kettles, Paul.

Visit the "Israel Today" website, view the headline 28 December, and read "US, Australia back Gaza strike; rest of the world doesn't". Do you think the Israeli Press is being just that little bit less than honest? Remember the contention of the original article which gave rise to these exchanges.

I don't think we have much more to contribute to this discussion, so I will withdraw now, unless there is a particular point you ask me to answer, or you raise a point which I consider particularly asinine, to use your adjective.

I will leave asking you to look at Moir's cartoon in today's SMH. See it at http://www.smh.com.au/cartoons/index.html. Two members of the Israeli Defence Force viewing the destruction of Gaza, one saying to the other "We're teaching them how a civilised democracy is supposed to behave".

I note the newly appointed head of the CIA has declared "no torture" on his watch. "We are better than that", he said. Let us hope we are better in all aspects of humanity in the future, including resolution of conflict.

Scriblerus, you wrote, "why do the Israelis still persist in their refusal to negotiate with Hamas?", in what seemed to be a defense of the Charter of Hamas. Isn't it Hamas that refuses to sign a truce with Israel, let alone acknowledge them?

The people of the region will be able to "stop eating grass and feast on olive branches" when they have a leadership that places the importance of their people over the destruction of Israel.

If 3278 rockets were flying into our nation, I would expect the military to take the necessary steps to prevent such a threat. This would include targeted bombings and most likely a ground invasion to uphold the security of all Australians (15% or otherwise). Your quote has demonstrated the hate-filled core of Hamas and the threat that such Islamism poses to the world in the 21st Century.

I support Israel and the IDF against such a threat

Harry G. your pathetic attack on America is uncalled for. You failed to mention that the British was occupying Jerusalem long before it became a UN Mandate and long before the Jews state was created. But that is not the point, the creation of Israel was inevitable and the Palestinians vowed to crash it from the beginning. They didn't want a state, they wanted Israel destroyed!
The creation of anti-Western movements from PLO to HAMAS is not a US fault as you pointed out. This is a movement that vowed to attack the West, hitting targets in UK, France, and the US. They are empowered by Islamic states of Iran and Syria, two of the most powerful countries in the Middle East.
I don't condone any use of nuclear weapons against civilians, but the ugliness of WW II was felt on both side. Americans were dying in tens of thousands, prisoners were beheaded everyday by the Japanese idiots who believed their Emperor to be a living God. Did the Japs care about Chinese and Koreas who were dying by the thousands every day in the hands of these demons? off course not. New evidence surfaced recently pointed to the Japan using chemical weapons in their raid in South East Asia, particularly China. Japs recently acknowledged and have apologized for it.
Your problem is that you don't see war, in this case Israel vs. Hamas, as a responsive act to an act of aggression, you see it as cruelty on the hands of evil Americans and Israelis. If Hamas shelled your home everyday for six months, what will you do? Negotiate?
To assume that Israel and its allies should negotiate with HAMAS or Hezbollah is ridiculous. These two organizations vowed to destroy Israel and have instigated senseless attack on Israeli towns. I don't see why people would support them.
During WW II, Japan drew up a plan to invade Australia, had a new name for Australia. Why did Australia chose to fight the Japs instead of Negotiating?

MaNiAc-josiah how would you feel if some crazy nutter killed 700 plus israelies is 2 weeks,and restricted you to your home via 24/7 bombimg by self rightious children in expensive american toys plying murder in your NaMe...,would you feel like talking peace to them

you take the high ground, but you are a low life allowing vile to be done in your nAmE..,go talk to your own docters treating your enemy,..killed and maimed by overwelming force crushing the life out of woman and children alike..[did these bomb you?

you are a perfect egsample of what is wrong with this whole issue, you poor retarded igN0rAnus...,you can keep count when countless bombs are dropping on innocent victims while you live in their house ,go see the persons behind the name...,go see the lives your allowing to be murdered in YOUR N@Me

you are an arrogant prat ,and most cetainly an opinionated dikkk head,...you defend the indefensable...,how many of the dead launched bombs at y0u..,but y0u dont care who dies for y0Ur self satisfaction

what threat do y0u offend y0uRSelf against,...y0u who would gladly support the murder of a people made powerless by Y0ur ignorance..,it is easy to suck the blood from others,

while y0u live in the home of the dead who's land y0u feel y0u to need more than they need their god given life to simply live..,trying simply to survive an overwelming OFFENSIVE...,yet trying to play the victim while offending

who's children you contin YoU cOnTiNuE to murder,..know you not the cammand..;THOU shalt not murder..,you dare call yourself gods chosen people yet serve the DeVile

who lives but by god will's them to life?
who living has god not breathed his holy spirit into?

you think god is pleased that the best you cant do with your LIfE is to encourage others into murder in your pReTenTioUs name

y0u are a pathetic excuse for living..but god chose you to live,
he is displeased with ANY life that is TAKEN in vain

vanity that pretends to give a damm
is as pretentious as your naMe

Something is freaking wrong you! you need to see a doctor!

>>In Hinduism Matangi is the aspect of Devi<<im sure there should be an L at the end of it

>>She guides her devotee to the incaused primordial sound.<<like the sound of children dying from nutters dropping bombs on em?

<<Matangi has three eyes.>>and two faces?

>>She first shows Herself as Kali and then manifests nine other forms.>>how many id's you post under

>>Traditionally appearing in the cycle after Bha-gulam-ukhi,Matangi is associated with the full moon,the night of intoxication<<im noting the bloggers are active this night

seems even an attack from a tank shell on a un convoy..that follows up the attack on the un school,yesterday..that follows red-cross finding 3 children with their dead parents and family this night..[and israelie soldiers near-by ignoring their cries,

been a busy day for you lot supporting the ongoing genocide of the expelled owners of the land you stole from god

matingi quote>>I don't condone any use of nuclear weapons against civilians, but<<facinating oh three eyed one[or should that be one eyed]

<<Your problem is that you don't see war,in this case Israel vs. Hamas,as a responsive act to an act of aggression,>>>that seems a two way street[an eye for an eye?]

<<To assume that Israel and its allies should negotiate with HAMAS or Hezbollah is ridiculous>>what is rediculous is this ongoing war
murdering the people who's land you stole
what land isnt gods land?

[he didnt give it to you..the belfore letter did][your ancestors were driven off it] THIS time a letter gave it to you against gods will
[thus the land is cursed,you are the curse]

<<I don't see why people would support them.>>i dont see why u.s should support YOU except your organised lobby took over the media and usa politics via organised lobby

israel is not a people it is a religion

<<The creation of anti-Western movements from PLO to HAMAS is not a US fault as you pointed out.>>wrong mate israel allowed them both to be set up

like it controls the other egypt/siria/lebinon leaders
all stooges,as research of my previous posts would reveal

No offense One Under God, but your previous posts are erratic rants in which it is hard to pick up any coherent train of thought. You seem to go by the rules of "Play the man, not the ball."

Just to clear up some errant pre-suppositions that you seem to have about me:

- I am not a Jew

- I am not an Israeli

- I am not happy about the civilian casualities that result from the actions of a militant (terrorist) group that governs these people (ie Hamas)

- I am not "a perfect egsample (sic) of what is wrong with this whole issue," nor a "poor retarded igN0rAnus (sic)."

- I agree that "[God] is displeased with ANY life that is TAKEN in vain." This includes those civilians murdered indiscriminately by Islamists in the World Trade Centre, Bali, Madrid, London, Sderot, Baghdad, Mumbai etc.

- I pray for peace in this conflict each day, NOT the destruction of either Israel or Palestine.

HarryG,

You say >> “Work towards our goals minimising bloodshed, not advocating. Don't give up and resort to the methods of terrorists. “

1) I don’t advocate bloodshed, I simply cannot criticise the Israelis for what I see/they see as their only real option.
2) I do not accept, (and you have not shown) that Israelis have stooped to the methods of terrorists.

Indeed I have introduced evidence that the Israelis have gone to extraordinary links to avoid civilian casualties, including ringing families and advising them where the bombs are going to fall. I cannot accept any comparison between the unfortunate events at the UN school for example, (providing the Israelis are being truthful about the facts) and Hamas suicide bombings of crowded buses or restaurants. Whilst the results are similar, the intent is not. And intent will always be a pivotal factor where issues of law, and for that matter morality, are concerned.

You say >> “My opinion that peace can be obtained is forged from recent past history. Don't disparage it as just an opinion.

1) I was not disparaging peace as a concept I was suggesting specifically that Hamas is not interested in making peace with Israel until it has fulfilled the goals set out in its charter.
2) You have not presented any evidence to the contrary.

You say >> “Most of our talk has centred on Hamas, despised or feared by most of the world; they have no ally in the Arab world except Hezbollah”

You see to be ignoring the fact that there is a large amount of anti-Israeli sentiment globally at the very best of times. Hamas may not have the full support of the majority of the global community, but you won’t see ANY pressure from these nations to have Hamas stand aside.

You say >> “If Israel were interested in peace with Palestine … they should be progressing those talks with Abbas now, marginalising Hamas still further.”

This is a misrepresentation of the likely outcome of such a course of action. Talking with Abbas won’t stop Hamas rockets.

TBC

CONT’

Indeed Hamas don’t even accept Abbas’ authority to make deals with the Israelis. Secondly, giving any Palestinians concessions whilst Israel and Hamas are at war will undoubtedly lead to more violence as Hamas will see such moves as accruing directly from their acts of violence. This just reinforces Hamas’ widely held belief that if Israel are attacked often enough for long enough they will cave in.

You say >> “Do you think that if Hamas agreed to, and stuck by, a peace deal, then Israel would leave the occupied territories, pull down the wall, extend a hand of friendship to Palestine?

I believe if Hamas renounced their commitment to violence, accepted Israel’s right to exist and agreed to a deal like the one offered to Arafat at Camp David, then Israel would do those most of those things. Extending the hand of friendship is a bit much, but I fully believe that Israel would remove the wall and abide by the land agreements. Israel is highly reliant upon its allies and could not get away with shirking its agreements even if it wanted, which I doubt.

You say >> “What will the present Israeli action spawn? As China rises, the US wonders why it loses respect.”

China’s human rights abuses place it in another realm altogether to the United States. Anyone looking to China for moral leadership is seriously misguided. Whilst I accept that there is a lot of criticism of Israel and the US at the moment I don’t believe the vast majority of opposition (ie other than western-liberal-elite opposition) is moral opposition, for reasons I’ve made clear. I believe that it is almost entirely political.

You have not commented on the question of whether the allies were “torturing” the civilian population in the case I raised. The attacks in Gaza bear NO similarity to the events in Dresden or Nagasaki or Hiroshima. Either in intent or outcome. I am surprised this confused you.

I will leave you with a cartoon from my favourite paper, the Australian, today. It entitled “ Hush your putting yourself at risk” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/gallery/0,26637,5024287-20581,00.html#

Dear MaNiK_JoSiAh,

I refer to your post of Friday, 9 January 2009 12:06:55 AM.

Is it so hard to tell that I was being ironic? The question of negotiating with Hamas, of legitimizing their organization (let alone their goals) is so manifestly absurd that it seems to warrant little more than an absurd response. I am surprised to see that people reading my post have actually taken it literally! My response was intended as a sarcastic rejoinder to the Lowenstein/Slezak article. I was extending their analysis to an even-more absurd conclusion. My apologies for any confusion that may have resulted...my rather warped sense of humour is obviously not shared by many.

Matangi

I am sure you will agree that it is difficult to debate issues with the 350 word limit, but you make it more difficult by not reading what is written. You have metaphorically "shot off your mouth" without reading or thinking. You refer to my "pathetic" attack on America, and ramble on about use of nuclear weapons against Japan in WWII. I did not criticise America in that regard, except I called into question the need for the second bomb (on Nagasaki). This was in response to a red herring raised by PaulL when he raised the subject of British bombing of Cologne, wasting even more words.

In one of his earlier posts, Paul L had asked "Do you imagine that Israelis don’t feel the same pain when one of Hamas’ hundreds of rockets actually hits its target?" the implication being that I do not condemn the firing of rockets by Hamas. I certainly do condemn it, as surely I have made clear, though I can understand it; just as I can understand why Israel fires upon Gaza. By making such a spurious point, PaulL wastes some of those valuable 350 words, and I have to waste words pointing this out to him because he has a clear reluctance to try to understand the points I am making.

Paul believes that "if Hamas renounced their commitment to violence, accepted Israel’s right to exist and agreed to a deal like the one offered to Arafat at Camp David, then Israel would do... most of those things" (leave occupied territories, pull down the wall etc). In other words, if Hamas surrendered what they are fighting for, and gave up completely, then Israel would reward them. This would continue the time-honoured tradition of dispute resolution by brutal military operations, getting agreement by force, which means continuing the death, maiming, destruction, lingering hatred, which is what I am trying to eliminate, or at least reduce.

I doubt Paul really believes that. There is clear evidence that the settlers will not move from their homes, though they have been built illegally.
tobe continued ...

The proposition I have been trying to get across is that Israel, as the much stronger protagonist in the much stronger position, should make the first concessions in a planned and structured compromise. There is not much point is discussing who did what to whom and why, though of course this is not completely irelevant if we want to understand why we have reached this deplorable conflict.

Reconciliation without military barbarism is an admirable aim, and this is an ideal time and place to establish this alternative model. Make the concession to Abbas and his moderate Palestinians, and support for Hamas will evaporate very quickly. Perhaps that way we can avoid the bloodshed, and set new standards for the future.

Remember how close we came with the Oslo and Camp David accords?

And Paul, did you deliberately misconstrue me, or did you just run off on another tangent? I was not looking for "moral leadership" from China. I am looking for moral leadership from the US. The leadership they have displayed over the past several years has turned much of world opinion against them. This is their opportunity to turn this around, and stave off any challenge from China. Is there "change we can believe in?"

Disagree with me if you must, but please don’t misrepresent me.

Paul, I did say that I would stop posting on this subject because I thought we had reached as far as we could sensibly go, but you have issued a minor challenge. You say that you “do not accept, (and I have not shown) that Israelis have stooped to the methods of terrorists”. Of course I won’t convince you, but let me tell you my reasoning. A man walks into a bus station with explosives attached to his body, and then detonates, killing himself and nine others. Another man sits in his armoured vehicle, fires a mortar into a bus station and kills ten people. Both these acts are acts of terrorism. Spin it how you like. It's irrelevant whether the Security Council has called for a cease fire or not.

Harry G, you must be kidding me! it is admirable for a nation to just sit back and watch its towns being attacked by 2000 missiles for six months? I have never heard of such a worthless diplomatic approach to a crisis so profound as this one. There is nothing admirable when it comes to a gang attacking innocent lives for six months. It is easy for you to make such statement as a spectator looking in from the outside, but it is the responsibility of a state that is to protect its citizens even if it means going into Gaza to stop the rockets.
Those who support Hamas do think like Hamas. To them, it is okay to send 2000 rockets to Israel but unacceptable when Israel retaliate. This is incredible.
Just imagine if all the Aboriginals attack every Australian federal building because they are built on their lands, what would you expect your government to do? Restrain? negotiate?
You failed to convince me that IDF going after these missile sites is unjustified.
The international media is making millions of dollars exploiting injuries and suffering in Gaza, but you won't see any of the pictures of Hamas militants firing rockets to Israel, and they weren't in Israel documenting victims of Hamas rockets! why is that? self-interest? The terrorists are those who don't wear uniforms, but hide in civilian homes! They hide in Mosques! these are the people you should criticize.
One under god, you need to write in proper English cos you make no sense at all. And noooo, I am not what you assumed to be. I don't have multiple IDs, I have been using my ID ever since I joint. You are a paranoia, illiterate freak!

Adios

yes abo's attacking LOL

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=27238&show=history
25 comments..total:25 article,0.
IN 3 YEARS

the first two on the big brother thread
7/7/2006

then,5 between
12/7/2006-31/7/2006
making strange comments in the middle of topic's then just disappearing

<<Yes,those terrible Christians and their respect for the sanctity of life.When will they ever learn?.. MaNiK_JoSiAh,31/July/2006

then nothing till

<<At least BM is prepared to go against the tide of popular reporting on David Hicks.Why not stir the pot?It beats the constant"Hug-a-Hicks"campaign in our neo-tabloid papers.>>

yet next day revealing a clear/informed insight

<<Jesus was far from a Talmudic Scholar...His onus was on the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings(the canonical Hebrew Bible).

Some of His most scathing criticism was of the Pharisaic praxis. They demonstrated an outward,hypocritical religion and yet neglected true justice, mercy and love.>>

then an occasional series of what appear to be reasoned insights into vairious aspects of religion

SO YOU HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING of many issues

10 posts for 2007

then 3 posts for 2008
now three for 2009

i reacted to your statement of support of premeditated/murder on the grand scale

<<I would expect the military to take the necessary steps to prevent such a threat.This would include targeted bombings and most likely a ground invasion...Your quote has demonstrated the hate-filled core of Hamas and the threat that such Islamism poses to the world in the 21st Century...I support Israel and the IDF against such a threat>>

i had just heard of the 3 children found besides their dead parents [bbc]and noted your occasional posting histry...and your sympathy that supports this ongoing genocide of civilians by those claiming talmudic right to abuse main and kill arab children

PS..911 was done by neo-cons not arabs[the research is available,and conclusive],but the media controled by neo-con zionista,wont be reporting it,

cheeney coordinated 911 and busche's brother,was involved in the buildings security[the jew that insured the building with a jewish insurance all points out 911 wasnt arab,...but designed and premeditated to set up arab people for mass vilification and mass murder[1,000,000 dead iraqies..,simular to we are now seeing played out?

One under God, you must be nuts! ask the forum admin who is watching my IP. I only joint this forum last week so stop your sorry arse assumption and stupidity. You assumed to know me when you don't know crap about me.
I am still struggling to piece together your messed up contributions cos they don't make sense at all. Your antisemitic sentiments won't change the fact of the issue; go on watching CNN and BBC and cry your head off because thats what Hamas wants the world to see. If they care about their Children they would have evacuated their towns! The deaths of their children, women, and men are their message to the world, thats how they earned the world's sympathy.
A newspaper in Iran accused Hamas of using Children to gain world's sympathy, and guess what happened afterward. It was shut down by the government! Egypt made a statement at the beginning of the Gaza invasion to the effect that Egypt is sharing a border with a terrorist organization (Hamas). In the Arab League, anti-Hamas leaders calling Hamas act as unwarranted.
Only you, nut head, that failed to see the reality of the issue. During the Israel vs. Hezbollah, photos sent around the world brought outrage and condemnation against Israel only to be found later that the photos were doctored or altered through Photoshop elements to make the scene in Lebanon extremely terrible. Same things occurred here recently. Photos circulated are mostly doctored.
UN criticized Israel, but guess what? the IDF announced today morning that they found military equipments embedded in the UN relief supplies. Investigation is underway and it will be interesting to know who is behind it, but it seems that some countries are using UN supplies to Gaza to smuggle in weapons for Hamas!
My final words to you: Idiots breed idiots, nuisances breed nut-heads, and illiterate breeds stupidity. So there you have it one-under-god! Does any one out there understand this person's so-called contributions?

Here's what my crystal ball tells me: Israeli forces will be out of Gaza well before the Obama inauguration on 20 January. I'll get a new crystal ball if I'm wrong.

Support of the comments by John Falconer in Friday’s WEST AUSTRALIAN of 6/1/009.

Quoting history, Falconer is right that a stronger UN at the time gave the only answer - that the Palestine area must now be partitioned democratically between Arabs abd Jews – as well as being under International control.

From Falconer - but the devil was in the detail and the Arab side of the partition was mostly brushed aside.

Thus with American help and US dollars plus, the tiny state of Israel was reborn

From Falconer - if the UN had ensured that the existing rather miserable Arab state had been given the same monetary and political backing as Israel, thngs might have turned out better.

In all this sorry affair the UN should surely take the blame, especially as America, in its position could not stay an honest broker.

Certainly the above still places one in that awkward position of still caring about what most of the present Israeli parents had gone through in the unspeakable Nazi terror camps.

However, historically what has mostly forced me not to change my mind has been the utter foolishness of our modern world to allow tiny Israelto go militarily atomic.

Admiration must thus go to Henry Kissinger who as a high ranking political scientist and Minister of State under Richard Nixon, gave warning that if Israel was allowed to go nuclear it would dangerously upset the ME balance of power so much it might easily start a Third World War.

Finally, also as a philosopher I must close mentioning Immanuel Kant from whom way back in the late 17th century wrote of the need for a democratic Federation of Nations, from which both the League of Nations and our United Nations evolved from, but while the League is said to be ruined by British single-power dominance, so the same has happened similarly with Pax American dominance over the UN.

HarryG

Generally I find it really offensive when people I have been debating start slandering me in a post to someone else.

You say >> “Disagree with me if you must, but please don’t misrepresent me.

So what you mean when you say >>> “ What will the present Israeli action spawn? As China rises, the US wonders why it loses respect” Because it is beyond me.

You say >> “ Paul L had asked … the implication being that I don’t condemn the firing of rockets by Hamas.”

You sound like Dagget. Please don’t imagine what I am implying. You’re flat out wrong. I rarely imply anything in these posts as I’m trying to make a deliberate point. Very few of the people I argue with a capable of anything as nuanced as an implication and you’ve showed us again how true that is.

The point in raising the above quote was to point out that your emotional language describing the suffering of the Palestinians can equally be applied to the Israelis. Israelis are also ripped apart by rockets, suicide bombers etc. The suffering is not one sided.

You say >> “There is clear evidence that the settlers will not move from their homes, though they have been built illegally.

How do you think the settlers left Gaza? You think they all went peacefully? You clearly don’t know what you are talking about. Read something and educate yourself. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4159958.stm

You say >> A man walks into a bus station with explosives attached to his body, and then detonates, killing himself and nine others. Another man sits in his armoured vehicle, fires a mortar into a bus station and kills ten people. Both these acts are acts of terrorism”

Let me put it to you this way. Israeli tank is under fire from Hamas launched anti-tank missiles. It fires back and instead of hitting the gunmen, kills ten civilians. If that to you is the same thing as walking into a bus station and exploding a bomb, then it’s probably a good thing you don’t want to continue our chat

Bushbred,

You are like a never ending record.

One question. How has Israels nukes got anything to do with this conflict, or the last, or the one before that?

You don't need Kant or Kissinger or the social science dept of your favourite university to explain that one simple question.

Matangi,

I wouldn't bother with OUG. He's speaking in tongues or some such. Maybe the resident born agains could identify what BIZARRE phrophecies have been revealed to him.

Young Steve,

As intelligent and thoughful a man as I believe Obama to be, he's going to be a lame duck president. The number of problems he's going to have to deal with beggar belief.

Some might pretend that these are of Bush's making. On the contrary, Obama will be tested by every despot going, in the hope that he will be a bleeding heart liberal, unwilling to use force even if it was needed, for fear of looking too much like Bush.

The Israelis are going to be the very least of his problems. Looks and more like the Israelis will have "won" by then anyway. Sad that it cost so many innocent lives for the enemies of Israel to learn that Israel will not be beaten militarily.

For a very well reasoned, and moderate analysis of the current tradgedy in the Middle East, see Daniel Finkelsteins article in the weekend australian Opinion section.http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,24892394-15084,00.html

matangu quote>>..I only joint [?]..this forum last week so stop your sorry arse assumption and stupidity...You assumed to know me when you don't know crap about me.>>

sunshine i was responding to the WeiRd n@meD occasional posting dUde

that was his posting histry NOT YOURS..,you nutter[yet your response is revealing ,and yes i dont know crap about you [nor give a damm]

you reveal more about you than me with absurdities like

<<..Only you,nut head,that failed to see the reality of the issue>>

mate your crafted reality is the delusional one,..more quotes

<<..outrage and condemnation against Israel only to be found later that the photos were doctored or altered through Photoshop elements to make the scene in Lebanon extremely terrible...Same things occurred here recently...Photos circulated are mostly doctored.>>

mate the media isnt allowed in[yet everyday we see some media from israel[usually a group of reporters being fed lies

[and then some panicked media liason dude,shepparding the media to safty to make todays 'news' report..when questions get out of hand[much like the embedded media in iraq 'war']

can you imagine the horror hushed up in that fake bombardment warning or the deliberated perverted bombing back to the stone age of gazaians ,iraq's bombing killed over one 1,000,000, iraquis sans media scruteny [just like israel is doing here]with the same bombs

800 reported dead..[but who has searched the bombed buildings?[recall from earth quakes]

how many are hiden under unsearched buildings[the truth is far worse than israel allows to be reported..[not that reporters will be allowed in before the real figure is raised to near 1,000,000 [ie the remaining palistein's are quietly exterminated]

issue-ing were going to kill you statements is revealed for what it is [those who flee ,are herded into buildings and bombed anyhow, and those killed in their hovels [well its their own fault right?]

your defending wholesale colluded murder

your just filled with too much fear and hate to know it

Bushbred
Bit hard blaming the UN. Initial voting indication was that UN would not agree to the partition of Palestine, but a few fairly well placed bribes (oops, did I say that?) from the USA was the decider. Britain was only too happy to get out of Palestine, (she was broke) and Ben Gurian, later the PM of Israel, was pioneering the concept of setting off bombs to encourage the Brits to get out. If you want to blame someone, go back to Britain’s Balfour Declaration and the apparent double crossing of the Arabs who had been cooperating with Major TE Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia). Or you can blame Richard Coeur de Lion and his fellow Christian crusaders, or whoever that fool god was who told the Jews they were the “chosen people” and Israel was their “promised land”. Best not to blame anybody if we are trying to resolve the issue. Finding someone to blame is for the historians, not today’s conciliators. I think the creation of Israel was the “right” thing to do; it’s just that the Palestinian state was never formed, and it would have needed a lot of assistance to modernise. But the world was pretty well broke at the time, after WWII, and only the US had money. Incidentally, Secretary of State Marshall (he of the Marshall Plan) advised Truman against the partition.
Matangi
You are a problem. There is responsibility to be honest and respectful. Your use of the straw man argument shows you to be either quite dishonest or unable to follow another person’s argument. Perhaps I have not been as clear as I thought I was, but I won’t repeat my position for you, in the hope you might read it more carefully the second time. For your information, to "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Enough said on your irrelevant comments.
tbc

..cont'd
When I continued reading your contribution, I concluded that you're a comedian, and here I was, taking you seriously. In your ill-mannered tirade again UOG you say: “you need to write in proper English cos you make ……… ever since I joint.” It is the spelling of “cos” and “joint” (misspelled again later, proving it was deliberate) while berating your target for his inability “to write proper English” that shows you have a great sense of humour and irony, or, perhaps you are a joke, and not the joker. (Respect is not always easy.)

While I have words to spare, the aborigines (and I am proud to carry aboriginal blood in my veins), though downtrodden since 1788 did not generally resort to violence as you are hypothesising, but won land rights through the High Court. Since 1967 the strongest (militarily and financially) group in Australia has been making concessions to the aborigines in a long term attempt to ameliorate the bitterness of the “invasion”. A good model for Israel to consider, during a period of peace?

PaulL … if I mention you in a post without directly addressing you, you can still read it. Each post does not have to be specifically addressed to an individual. I thought our exchanges had outlasted their useful life. We have different attitudes, and will continue to justify those attitudes though we may modify them over time, in the light of experience and maturity. I am seeking a peaceful reconciliation in the Middle East and believe we should continue to strive for peaceful solutions, not only there but also in other trouble spots. I try to adopt an even-handed approach, though I do believe that Israel as the stronger protagonist should take the lead and make the initial and probably bigger concessions. You endorse (by your direct words, and by IMPLICATION) Israel’s current bombardment. We disagree. I don’t think further exchanges between us are useful. But I will respond if I feel obliged, or I think I make a contribution. Atleast weagree that OUG speaks in tongues. My best wishes to you.

Harry G. I won't apologize for the way I contribute because I believe what I said in my previous writings. It is rather sad to see people who seemed very articulate in their writings, like you, approached politics and war in a very strange way. You expected Israel to just watch their own people dying, and to wait for more missiles, which is very scary way of thinking! A few things I see in your posting; you are either extremely liberal, which is not a strange thing, or you are just too perfect for this world of imperfection. If that is the case, then I am sorry I stepped on your toes.
I have my own way of writing that includes the use a few slang, example, my preference of "cos" over because and the word "joint", but if you take a closer look at OUG's writing, they just don't make sense; organization? nil! substance? nil. We can't seem to sense of his/her tirade. I maybe rude, but just read the way he analyzed my own contributions.
G, If there is any joke worth moving the muscles of my jaws, it is your argument that Israel should restrain and negotiate. Even if anti-Hamas contributors pointed out the fact that 2300 missiles were fired on Israel in a course of 6 months, excluding the amount of missiles fired before Israel moved out of Gaza. That is a joke to me! so who is the joke here? the answer is clear.
Iam glad to know you have some native Aussy in you, but the situation between the Aussy and the indigenous people is no way near the Israel and Hamas issue. In your case, the Australian government is able to negotiate peace with the indigenous people because they (Abos) aren't terrorizing Australian cities like the Hamas. If your people attacked Australian major cities with missiles everyday, what would the Aussy government do? Negotiate? You failed to answer my question.

matangi,i am a personal friend/and treaty holder of dennis walker[who was a member of the aust version of the black panther/movement]who was arrested on a trumpt-up charge and locked-away for over ten years,

much like the hamas membership has been locked up...[dennis had a show trial,...whereas hamas get locked up indefinatly[and permantly]just for getting electoral nomination AND NO TRIAL

that is where israel dont target them for assasination with bombs,and poisen..[you use phospher and depleted uranium..[we used cynide and small pox]..but it is revealed as simply colonisation 101

they[you remove their leaders]and try to corrupt the next in line[as long as the murder continues]...we know no coconuts are being conned
[coconuts are white inside black..[or as the arab league reveals arabs that serve the zionist/jew invader]

its the same omnipotant racist neo con type that controls the same old coloninising invader game of racial extinction any who could claim higher authority

i have with dennis visited many gulags,here in australia..[you need invader permission permits to visit]..you find the gulag system here is adopted from the american indian gulags...[upon which hitler modeled his gulag's...[upon which israel; modeled their gaza gulag

its the same colinisation system,..using the self same coliniser teqniques and languages...and the same red neck colonial racist attitude

that steals others land's while oppressing the natives into invader controled gulags..[we too have our capoes..[who bravely oppress their own serving the invader]

it is you that raised the abo issue,..but it makes the perfect live time proof of how far others are prepared to go to make themselves into the white good guy with absolute control over media laws and oppressive policing

now dennis sees that force is their weapon,that the moral duty is to simply survive the oppressor[hamas havnt got that far yet]..but why bother explaining stuff to the likes as you and your red neck mates who serve evil,

calling murder of indigenants fair,yet your crap stinks,..but with every vile emition from your mouth you reveal the evil invasion of others is revealed as the poor excuse to oppress others that it really is murder by invading..[overwelming force]

I will not change, Harry G, or in bush language I ain't changin'.

Possibly mainly it is over Israel's unlawfull allowance by both American and British leaders `to let Israel go militarily nuclear.

Certainly in the long run the false pride that the host of the latest atomic warheads is giving them might unfortunately be their undoing.

Finally, your nasty pings at my poor English makes me laugh, because that was I why failed to get a commission in WW2, even though I became a top specialist not only in scientific long-range gunnery, but later after it saved Britain, in radar.

Might add, that I never ever completed primary school, having to leave school early in the Great Depression at 12 to drive a wagon team.

Have Fun,
from BB, Buntine, WA.

HarryG

If Israel were fighting Palestinians under Fatah, many would be on the side of Palestinians. Fatah is a Palestinian secular organisation that represents the interests of Palestinians.

HAMAS, on the other hand, is an extreme Islamists group bent on killing moderate Muslims, non-Muslims and Jews.

The video produced by Palestinians shows HAMAS killing their own people. Guests at a wedding party were killed because music was played.

It's impossible to negotiate with irrational people who believe they represent god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I&eurl

One Under God,

Thanks for the interest in my posting history :)
You seem more concerned about it than what I am...

26 posts now! lol

doesn't anyone get it? hamas hide behind civilians. they take over UN buildings, schools, hospitals and mosques. what would be israel's strategic interests in killing civilians. it has hamas to worry about.

the attacks at the school the other day were not unexpected (http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115) as hamas frequently use civilian safe houses to launch attacks at israel.

if israel wanted to kill civilians, or even commit genocide, the death toll would be higher than 800, israel wouldn't drop leaflets warning of attacks and would carpet bomb gaza instead of using high-tech expensive weapons to target hamas terrorists hiding amongst civilians.

also: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32368_UN_School_Used_by_Terrorists_As_a_Weapons_Dump

Matangi:
You are still at it. You accuse me of saying: I “expected Israel to just watch their own people dying, and to wait for more missiles”. Where did you get that idea from? What allows you, in clear conscience, to make such an accusation? I have ignored your hypothetical about “abos”, because it an irrelevant simplification and carries overtones of racism.

PaulL, I had read Daniel Finkelstein’s article (The Australian is also delivered to my household) but I would not say it was “well reasoned and moderate” the way you do. He uses the typical approaches of someone who attempts to make an apparently “well reasoned and moderate” approach to help sway the opinion of the reader. It is not a bad opinion piece, nevertheless.

Incidentally, I have visited Anne Frank House in Amsterdam and was much moved by it. I also visited the Anne Frank exhibition a few years back at Sydney’s Powerhouse Museum, and I have visited Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Auschwitz and more recently Pol Pot’s torture rooms and killing fields in Phnom Penh. You might think this makes me a “sicko”, but I think getting “close up and personal” with places such as this makes me a better (and perhaps arrogant!) person. “Nie wieder”(Never again) is the cry, which I endorse, but unfortunately, I see the use of killing and destruction is still used as part of the process in conflict resolution. Having learned a little more of my background, you might understand better where I am coming from. As an atheist, I regard all human life as important, without reference to religion, race or location.

Finkelstein says that he “patiently explained to this kind, good man” (understanding his style, Paul?) about the 2000 Camp David accord with Yasser Arafat, but I submit that 2000 has long gone, as has Arafat, and with Abbas a better result could well obtain, and Hamas could be marginalised and made irrelevant. They receive sympathy but little respect from Palestine. It will require UN involvement, monitoring, “no go” zones etc but we have seen this work before.

tbc

...ctd

Finkelstein tells his Anne Frankstory because he wants us “to understand Israel”. He makes no effort to make us understand the plight of the Palestinians or the hatred of the Hamas militants. So though you might reckon the article is “well reasoned and moderate”, it is certainly not balanced.

He is being a little loose with the truth when he claims that Israel is ”no longer in Gaza, having withdrawn unilaterally and taken the settlers with it”. Israel still controls borders, taxes, airspace, supply of goods etc. Israel did not withdraw out of the goodness of its heart, or as part of an established peace plan, so the argument carries “furphy” writ large.

To his credit, Finkelstein admits: “Israel has made many mistakes. It has acted too aggressively on some occasions, has been too defensive on others. The country hasn't always respected the human rights of its enemies as it should have done.”

If only you and Matangi could recognise this, then a better debate could have ensued.

The courage of Anne Frank, the defenseless little girl in the face of arrogance, bigotry and people who convinced themselves that killing was justified exists in other parts of the world today. Think about it.

Bushbred, I was not having a go at you concerning anything. Matangi berated UOG because of his inability to write “proper English”, yet Matangi was shown he too wrote poorly. I laughed at him because of his hypocrisy. Still, hypocrisy is surely better than threats to shoot (now removed by the moderator), no matter how jocular. Many brilliant people use poor spelling and poor grammar, but in informal discussions such as this, it matters not a whit, provided the point is made clear.

PhilipTang
You are right. But I have been suggesting negotiating with Abbas and marginalising Hamas (refer post 8Jan,7:57pm). There has been plenty of opportunity for Israel to do this over the past couple of years. It is so frustrating that you criticise me in this way without reading or understanding what you are criticising. The right to comment carries other obligations.

Near the end of my tether, have become truly ashamed at the way not only the way the national media but the way our OLO has been hidng the real truth behind the ME Arab Israeli problem.
It is so interesting that it has taken the chief journalist of our only newspaper, the WEST AUSTRALIAN to allow in letter s from veterans revealing the historical happening that caused the melee certainly only now getting bloody worse.
Talking to the chief journo’ it seems that the three letters from three different old-timers over the last week or so, reveal that the major historical mistake was not so much the break-up between the UK and the US, but that the US failed to carry out the British plan to grant equal amounts of Palestine to both Jews and Arabs.
Further in a fourth letter from John H May of Collie, he goes on to say -
‘That when one considers the trillions of dollars on arming Israel up to this time, just ten percent of that could have created a Palestinian paradise for both participants along with its subsequent influence on future world peace’.
Finally, I’d suggest that not only our not very gallant OLO’s look to their media and historical facts better, but might say the same about the management.
Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA

Have my antagonists mostly given up? Have they decided there is nothing more to say, or have I converted them? Conversions are rarely instant, but perhaps I have given them food for thought.

People often say “you can’t do this” or “this will never happen”, and with the Middle East conflict having lasted this long, who can’t understand the pessimism? But Libya is now a friendly country, and look at the eventual triumph of Mahatma Ghandi, and then Martin Luther King.

Too often we see things through a narrow view point. The original article from which these comments flowed made this point. We are more likely to believe Israel because we still have some sympathy for them, they are strongly supported by US, many of them speak English, we are closer to them culturally than to “the other side”. The Australian Jewry has paid for columnists from the Sydney Morning Herald, The Australian and possibly others to go to Israel to get the story from their side. The Israelis’ Public Relations machine has been working flat out with Mark Regev (who was born and lived much of his life in Australia) the Israelis’ voice in Australia and NZ, always ready to be interviewed. He sounds like one of us, so we are more likely to believe him.

Whenever there is conflict, it is much easier to blame “the other side” and say nasty things to denigrate them which are so easy to believe because we hate/dislike them already. It is now taken as a fact that Hamas hide amongst civilians, and The Australian cartoon even showed a Hamas member telling the baby to stop crying because he was giving his position away. There is no evidence that Hamas is treating civilians (supporters?) in this way, only allegations. Israel won’t let the international press into Gaza. It is quite possible, even probable, that the Hamas militants are mingling with civilians. They would be mad to group themselves together in camp allowing one well placed bomb to wipe out their whole resistance against what they see as a “nazi-like” tyranny.
tbc....

..continued...
So easy to blame the US, and I do. The US has become what it is today by seizing anything it wants; against the original inhabitants (painted by Hollywood as the “baddies” as they fought for their rights and lands); against the Mexican/Spaniards who held Mexico and California. About 25% of US Presidents have a military background, and we all know how much store they put on having “God on their side” (we need a Bob Dylan revival). The US can properly be described as imperialist.

The US formula for peace has ever been “kill the opposition”, and they have stood idly by with the sycophantic “Israel has every right to protect itself’ without any reference to the fact that perhaps the other side has rights too. Remember, it was not US diplomacy which got Gaddafi to renounce opposition to the west, but European diplomacy. US policy is not to talk to Iran, Hamas (and at most times Arafat), and even Castro, on the basis that Cuba is run by a revolutionary government (as is the US if you want to take it that far!)

Let us hope that Obama, with probably a superior knowledge of what it is like to come from the “wrong side of the tracks”, and has more compassion than his predecessors for an alternative view point will bring about that change. He has already told us he is willing to talk to Ahmadinejad.

The US has shown us that it can be a “great” country particularly from a technological position. Its social mores are far different from what I would like, but it is only 40+ years since the race riots, and though the non-whites still suffer, the US has been able to regenerate and renew itself amazingly in that time.

We must always hope, and do our best to strive toward peace and reconciliation – as Ghandi and King showed us - by peaceful methods, not by falling to brutal militarism.

I have made many sweeping statements in this piece, and I know many of them are arguable. Constructive comments most welcome.

Dear Harry G

"Libya is now a friendly country" errr.. yep.. after the USA bombed the blith out of them....they had an amazing turnaround of attitude :)

No one to blame for problems in the Israel/Palestine thing? Oooooh yes there is.

1/ Israel has no drama/problems with the Arabs withIN Israel.... (apart from their verbal whining).. Israel has little trouble from Fatah controlled West bank regions. (more than Israeli Arabs but much much less than Gaza megalomaniacs)

2/ Israel has peace with Jordan..Egypt..and Syria... even though Syria is moaning about the Golan Heights.

3/ ISRAEL HAS NO PEACE with HAMAS.

a) Hamas continues to send war crime rockets against Israeli towns in ever INcreasing ranges.
b) Hamas has never renounced it's genocidal charter.
i)Islam must Obliterate Israel.
ii) Muslims must kill the Jews

So... there is someone to blame..and it's HAMAS with their theological basis. "The world and all that is in it belongs to Allah and his messenger" and "Palestine became an Islamic Waqf ever since it was conquered by force" (by the Caliph Omar in 637)

You should also realize that SPAIN is considered an 'Islamic Waqf' by orthodox Islamic theology.....and thus for even the most moderate of Muslims it comes under the verses which call for WAR against those who have 'cast you out of your homes'..... the PROBlem with Islamic theology..is that it does not recognize when ISLAM cast people out of THEIR homes.. such as in Spain and in Palestine when Catholics and Jews were displaced by invading Moors and Arabs.

As long as this theological foundation exists.. there is really only one solution... a 'final and absolute' one, humanly speaking.

Harry G, though we have not been getting on so well, possibly because of my rough bush background, could still reckon we both look more through the middle road true academic historical pathway.

Thus would like your opinion on my yesterdays post on this thread regarding opinions from ME veterans published in our WEST AUSTRALIAN newspaper, backing up the argument that the prime cause of Palestinian problems was the US arrogantly not only pushing Britain out of the way, but strongly favouring the new Israel, pretty well leaving the Palestinians out in the cold.

Also it seems both the chief WEST' journo' and the editor give credit to the veteran's historical quotations.

Cheers - BB, WA

Polycarp, your example supports my point, not denies it.

1986, US attacked Libya. It was not supported by European countries. Although the attack planes flew from UK, France, Spain, Italy refused air space. The jets flew through Maltese air space without approval. (What arrogance!)

Libya claimed “US had fallen prey to the arrogance and madness of power. It charged that any party that did not agree to become an American vassal was an outlaw, a terrorist, and a devil.” (Wikipedia). It is difficult to deny that claim, no matter what we think of Libya. (“Axis of Evil”,”You’re either with us or against us”)

“Some observers held ……. that UN Charter set limitations on the use of force in exercising the legitimate right of self-defense in the absence of an act of aggression, and affirmed that there was no such act by Libya. It was charged that the US did not bother to exhaust the Charter provisions for settling disputes”. (Wikipedia). Brutal militarism before diplomacy, and who cares about the rules, except when it suits us?

2008, US paid $300million in war reparations.

Two years after the 1986 bombing, Libya and its agents were responsible for the “Lockerbie Air Disaster”. Polycarp, the US bombing does not seem to have done much good.

Sanctions were placed on Libya in 1990s. “The full lifting of the sanctions, contingent on Libya's compliance with UN resolutions, including acceptance of responsibility for the actions of its officials and payment of appropriate compensation, was passed in 2003, explicitly linked to the release of up to $2.7 billion in Libyan funds to the families of the Lockerbie attack's 270 victims.” (Wikipedia)

“2003, Libya announced it had agreed to reveal and end programs to develop WMD and renounce terrorism. Gadafi has made significant strides in normalizing relations with west since then.” (Wikipedia)

Polycarp, if you feel that the US aggression in 1986 was the principal reason for Libya’s turnaround, you live in a wonderful world. Perhaps it did play a part, but even you would have to give more than 90% of the credit to diplomacy.

Continued ...

Polycarp, you are really an inveterate misrepresenter. Of course there is blame. I am having to repeatedly make the point that blame is now irrelevant; conciliation is the issue. Finding someone to blame does not help. That’s kindergarten stuff. “He hit me first, Miss”.

BushBred, I have harboured no ill-feeling. You thought I had been criticising you when I was really railing against an ill-mannered contributor to these posts, and you were justified in “firing” back on that basis. I think you realise now what the position was.

You have been complimentary enough to seek my opinion on the issues you have raised concerning matters raised in the WA press. I really don’t feel I can comment without seeing all the items referred to. I have commented before in these posts concerning the creation of Israel. I do believe it has been handled badly, though I do agree, on balance, with the establishment of a Jewish state (though my dislike for religion is strong. We cannot ban it and stay democratic, but we can argue against it).

By the way, are you aware that Western Australia was once put forward as a location for the new Jewish state?

I note Hilary Clinton is today saying how US foreign policy will now change with an emphasis on diplomacy (reminds us of ‘Walk softly, carry a big stick’), but she says she won’t negotiate with Hamas until they renounce their policy towards Israel. The illogicality of her approach will eventually catch up with her. Diplomacy and negotiations are needed to encourage Hamas to change policy (remember Libya); they cannot be pre-requisites to negotiations. The problems of the Middle East have not been helped by this ostrich approach. “We won’t negotiate a settlement until you have agreed to our terms”. Not a good start, Hilary. Does US want peace?

You cannot negotiate with Hamas, my detractors say, but we don’t know for sure. It certainly will be very difficult, but you must invite them to the negotiating table and try, and try, and try again. Remember Libya.

Dear Harry.... you forcefully make the point "Blame is not the issue now but conciliation is" (paraphrase)

I agree. The 'blaming' for the Gaza situation is more for our own benefit and sense of moral outrage than anything else.

But.. while conciliation is noble, it cannot proceed if there are insurmountable barriers in the way.

The primary barrier is the HAMAS CHARTER and it's diabolical content.
(Last hour.. Muslims kill Jews etc)

I suppose people could romantically and idealistically 'claim' that it's violent, genocidal, murderous words are just 'posturing'..but for the Jews.. even sympolic or indirect posturing has more significance that for most of us.

But when murder and genocide are specifically spelt out..and linked to what are considered eternal ideas (Allah/Mohammad/Resurrection/Islam) then we have a most serious problem that no amount of diplomacy will ever solve.

This is clearly evidenced by the words of Abu Obeida, chief thug in the Kassam brigades of HAMAS.

"You can do what you like.. you haven't damaged us. we will continue to fire our rockets at you and their range will reach further and further into Israel"

Now..given the amount of carnage already experienced by the residents of Gaza, these kind of words are worse than inhuman.

The only words we should be hearing from Hamas are 'We surrender' just like we demanded from and received, from the Japanese and Germans
If they don't surrender, then they should get their wish of matrydom and a quick ticket to hell.

You don't negotiate with the likes of Abu Obeida, or Ismael Haniya or Khalid Mishaal or HAMAS type organizations.. you destroy them, without hesitation...and the problem goes away.

The Israel/neighbours problem will only ever be managed by force or the threat of force and balance of power...the core issues are unresolvable politically.

Polycarp, just as I have forcefully made the point that “blame is not the issue but conciliation is”, you have also forcefully made the point, that the “primary barrier is the Hamas charter”.

The Hamas charter is unpleasant, but it is only a barrier if it suits your political attitude. Hamas would love to get rid of Israel, but reality is more important. I don’t want to downplay the charter too much, but I think you are overplaying it. It suits Israel/US to take the stand off position and say they won’t negotiate with terrorists, or with Hamas because of the charter, but is that helping the situation?

Cheers

Norway has kept communications open with Hamas, and recognised their government. Norway was prominent in the nearly successful Oslo Accord; Norway has gained approval for its efforts as the honest broker in Sri Lanka. Norway is not “hung up” on the Hamas charter, and does not use it as an excuse for failure to negotiate.

The offensive Hamas charter should not be used as an excuse, but as a challenge.

“We will not communicate with Hamas because of their offensive Charter” is a specious, pathetic argument, a sophistry. I implore you to think again.

Whilst we disagree over this issue, I am not dogmatic enough to say that there is no circumstance under which you can be right. I can understand your solution, but see it as a solution only of last resort. There are situations when I would “unleash the dogs of war” but we are nowhere near a last resort while diplomacy has hardly been tried. Twenty years of Republican policy from the US out of the last 28 has not helped.

If we lose respect for life, what hope is there for us?

Are you just a realist, and I am just a dreamer? We’ll have to reflect and introspect in our quieter hours.

It will be interesting to see how Gaza plays out. How sweet it would be if cool heads and a negotiated peace were to win in the end. What a giant step for mankind!

Harry G.

You say >> “Finkelstein ... makes no effort to make us understand the plight of the Palestinians or the hatred of the Hamas militants”

Finkelsteins article is an Opinion piece. He is arguing the validity of his point, not asserting it as incontravertble fact. Finkelstein has not set out to convince us of the righteousness of Israel’s motives and actions(indeed he criticises them at times), he has attempted to explain them. So the need to explore Hamas’s motives and the plight of the Palestinians is nonexistent.

His central point, which is that many Israelis legitimately feel that they cannot rely upon the goodwill of the West to keep them safe, is backed up with historical reality. Alas, time and again, the Jews have learnt that no-one will come to their rescue. If they want to survive they need to take matters into their own hands.

UN resolutions regarding Israel are a joke. I won’t go into the statistics again, but suffice it to say that the UN and its many organisations are dominated by the enemies of Israel. Finkelstein makes the point that if the liberal opinion, which champions the UN to protect the rights of people such as the Jews, worked, there would have been no need for Israel in the first place.

These two pivotal paragraphs in Finkelsteins article resonate strongly with me.

>> “ The poverty and the death and the despair among the Palestinians in Gaza moves me to tears. How can it not? Who can see pictures of children in a war zone or a slum street and not be angry and bewildered and driven to protest? And what is so appalling is that it is so unnecessary. For there can be peace and prosperity at the smallest of prices. The Palestinians need only say that they will allow Israel to exist in peace. They need only say this tiny thing, and mean it, and there is pretty much nothing they cannot have.

Yet they will not say it. And they will not mean it. For they do not want the Jews.

TBC

cont'

Again and again - again and again - the Palestinians have been offered a nation state in a divided Palestine. And again and again they have turned down the offer, for it has always been more important to drive out the Jews than to have a Palestinian state. “

You say >> “He is being a little loose with the truth when he claims that Israel is ”no longer in Gaza, having withdrawn unilaterally and taken the settlers with it”. Israel still controls borders, taxes, airspace, supply of goods etc.

Yes, Israel still controls the airspace, borders etc for Gaza. Since there is no established Palestinian state, and since the many of the Palestinian organisations are hell bent on wreaking havoc on Israel, it seems highly prudent that Israel did not hand over total control of Gaza. Certainly the ensuing events reinforced the judiciousness of that decision. The Gazans did not use this opportunity to begin the road to statehood. They took it as a military victory which they hastily followed up with renewed rocket attacks from their new vantage points, closer to Israeli towns.

You say >> “Israel did not withdraw out of the goodness of its heart, or as part of an established peace plan”

This is simply preposterous. Do you really believe any of the parties are acting out of the “goodness of their hearts”? Israel voluntarily made a significant concession to the Palestinians.

Was it everything the Palestinians wanted? No. Was it a final offer from Israel? No.

Whatever Israel’s motives, the fact remains that the Israeli gov’t faced down a massive backlash from the religious and right wing elements in Israel for their policy of evicting (using force when needed) settlers from Gaza in order to return land to the Palestinians. This WAS a move towards peace that was not reciprocated.

Finally, you argue that the Hamas charter is used as excuse. But this is nonsense. Its not the words, it's the intention. Whilst Hamas are committed to the destruction of Israel, giving them concessions will merely encourage the violence, not stem it.

After watching

the Anglo-Jewish war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYHoK54w2kg

The Arab Israeli Conflict - part 1 : Land division.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OhdZcz44U8

The Arab Israeli Conflict - part 2 : Israeli massacres 1948
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKLucDqEeKA&NR=1

Timeline of Zionist Terror
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-terrorists-timeline-1945-1948.html

it is obvious that atrocities were committed by Jews and Arabs. However, the Jews were accountable for most of the terrorism committed. This is understandable because (i) the holocaust was fresh in their minds and (ii) their very existence was called into question.

Going back to a pre-1948 situation for Palestine is not possible. Today, Israel is a secular democracy and it is up to the Palestinians to recognize the state of Israel. Should the majority of Palestinians choose Hamas, an Islamists organization, to represent them, they have to be willing to suffer the consequences of their choice.

Hamas, like all Islamists, is dedicated to the destruction of all things non-Muslims. All non-Islamists should be glad of what Israel did to the Islamists in Gaza.

Winston Churchill wrote in 1899 about Islam:

“A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1592070/post