While Dagget morphs increasingly into a man of reason :) (for agreeing with me)... Mil Observer is morphing rapidly into 'credibility destructo' mode and is looking increasingly like an elitist left winger who manifests all the symptoms of "Ignorance of Islam" syndrome.

Dagget...your quotes from Steyn etc are very persuasive, as they are based on verifiable demographic and literary facts.
I wish you could apply the same level of reasonableness to 9/11 and other horrific incidents, but you can't be perfect :)

Half good is better than no good.

I invite the perceptive reader to check out these 2 documents.

"Loyalty of Muslims to Non Muslim Rulers"

http://www.interculturelecommunicatie.com/download/loyaliteit.pdf

Pages 7 (last paragraph) and 8 (first paragraph)

Then.. peruse this one:

"Conditional" Loyalty to non Muslim rulers.(the condition is that Islamic goals can be persued, i.e the Islamification of the host society)

http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/MuslimManifesto.pdf

These are rich in their capturing of the various contradictions in modern Islamic thinking. The first one asserts it is possible to have a modern interpretation of Islam... (but is flawed in the first paragraph of page 8...can you see it?)

The second is pretty much a subdued declaration of war to those familiar in Islamic theological parlance. (such as myself... no.. not arrogance, just fact)

This document refutes the idea of abandoning Jihad, whereas the other one embraces the idea. The problem for Westerners is..the one which embraces it seeks to be the representive code for all Muslims in the UK.

There are many danger signals in that manifesto...but it takes a careful read to see them.

Anyone care to list a few?

If we look at these, we will all be in a more educated position about the matters we often discuss.

I've attempted to raise a thread about them. (don't know if it will get up yet)

Porkycrap, former missionary in a Muslim country: << the Islamification of the host society >>

Er, wasn't your object the 'Christification' of the host society? What's the difference, and how Christian is Malaysia following your efforts at Christian 'jihad'?

<< There are many danger signals... >>

Yep. Check out Porky's own quest for Christian 'Sharia' law:

<< I believe homosexual acts should be illegal >>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2405#53334

Given that Muslims are a tiny minority in this country, and that various versions of godbothering Christianity (including Porky's Brethren) have the ear of government, I'm personally much more concerned about the resurgent influence of Christian religionism than I am about Islam.

I wouldn't say I'm afraid of them though. Just the consequences for us all if we let them get away with turning back the clock.

The irony of this discussion is earth shattering.

With the possible exception of Catholicism, Islam is the most homophobic and xenophobic of all the world's religions. A review of current Islamic literature, news, debate and discussion reveal a deliberate loathing of gays and non-Muslim culture. Our very own 'Muslim Village' forum at the 'Islamic Sydney' website is a typical case in point.

So, Nick Haslam is asking us to perform an absurdity. We, the tolerant, are supposed to tolerate the intolerant!

I was living in Brisbane when 9/11 happened. Both my wife and I came to the defence of Muslims being refused service at shops as it wasn't them who flew the planes. We understood such fears yet were disappointed with the behaviour of our fellow Australians.

Our views of Islam in Australia all changed when we lived in Sydney from late 2002 to late 2004 where it became impossible to go into Sydney without some Muslims making comments that went from offensive to threatening, especially when I had one of my young daughters with me.

Also a problem was being attacked. The first time, I threw a young Lebenese fella against the concrete wall. The second time, I found myself approached by about 6 young Muslims all wanting to fight me as I walked the city street alone. This was until I found 6 or so young Chinese men who stood with me, challenging them for a fight right there and then. Yes, these young Muslims all fled with their tails between their legs.

After Sydney, I would like to see Islam eradicated in Australia. You can the Europeans wanting the samething now after how their hospitality has been returned with extreme violence.

Well CJ, I understand that Malaysia has been rather tolerant towards the presence of preachy fanatics / soul-snatchers in its midst. From what I've seen, read, and perceived from Malaysian friends, Malaysia's population also suffers from more than the usual inter-religious suspicions and enmities, though quite possibly less so than in Australia, as threads like this would suggest. But such immaturity would be at odds with Malaysia's otherwise highly successful demographic character of multi-ethnicity and inter-ethnic hybridity. Anyway, what I can confirm fully is that when Indonesia deports door-knocking soulhunters, it often boots them next door to KL.

Indeed Malaysia's close neighbor Indonesia has actively hunted down such religious bugbears since its birth, when dealing with Dutch manipulations of the same, along with its own colonial legacy of a Southeast Asian Apartheid with toxic religious baggage. However, the Dutch did not even come close to achieving the horrendous inter-religious bloodshed as fostered by the British under Mountbatten with the partition of “India” and “Pakistan”. Also, the Indonesian outlawing of conversion safaris involves a considered and escalated response, all the way to shooting such missionary predators dead, if necessary.

TR: you just fell into an accidentally constructed bearpit that snares “Islamophobes”. Now, from the (main) substance of his Murdoch-published article, Nick Haslam did not intend to entrap Islamophobes but rather try to destigmatize them by attacking the very description “Islamophobe” as being an unauthorized term by his particular field of racketeers, as if some kind of copyright violation. At this stage, my guess is that Haslam is one of the fanatical soul-snatching / conversion gurus typical of the zealously networked fundy-evangelist scene in this country's uni campuses. Haslam's touch-feely-seeming “asylum seeker research” could have easily involved such extra-curricular pursuits.

Btw TR: Your idol Hitchens is a coke fiend – not healthy.

Spidey: where were you when Jackie Kelly and co were creating those wonderful pamphlets in western Sydney before the 2007 fed election? Oh, you were vigilantly patrolling Cronulla's beaches, and there's that funny rivalry thing too because you're from old Queensland Nationals!

Mil-observer wrote:
"...I understand that Malaysia has been rather tolerant...from Malaysian friends..."
"Malaysia's population...inter-religious suspicions and enmities...less so than in Australia..."
"...Malaysia's...highly successful...multi-ethnicity and inter-ethnic hybridity..."

My conclusions:
(1)...You're ignorant about Malaysia.
(2)...You're ignorant about Australian values, by the way you make comparison with Malaysia.

In an earlier post, Mil-observer wrote:
"...local thugs involved in forced "conversions" have been tried, jailed, and sometimes shot too..."
"...the Indonesian response to such destabilization by fanatics is largely exemplary."

My conclusions:
(3)...Labelling Christian preachers as "local thugs" when their lives are endangered in a majority Muslim country full of Islamists extremists, makes you a fool.
(4)...Regarding Indonesian response as "exemplary" makes you a fool.

Mil-observer,
Get both your ears closer so I can spit in them -- YOU'RE an IGNORANT FOOL !!