"However most Christians I know are quite fond of democracy and the concepts of secularism." well ...

dan, i don't really disagree, though if you want to credit "biblical traditions" you might explain why it took those traditions a couple thousand years to start kicking in. and, we do still have idiots like steve fielding.

Bennie I think we have hit upon the key issue in this argument. In a liberal democracy we can have competing forms of what the good life is and how it is meant to be lived. This leads those of us who live in liberal democracy to conflict with those who have a different moral standing. How do we decide what is the best course of action when one segment of our society sees one sort of action as morally good and another sees it as a moral evil. What if the population is split fifty fifty for and against stem cell research so should they go ahead because any knowledge is good knowledge? Why should we go ahead with an idea or stop an idea other then to meet the will of the people? Is there any other way to decide in a liberal democracy?

Part of being able to voice your opinion in the public sphere is the ability to influence actions which support your opinion in the governance of society. Otherwise freedom of speech is just the freedom to make noise. One should error always on the side of the people in democracy not in favour of an political Ideology.

I would agree with the article that secularism means government with no religious bias, where athiesm can be regarded as a belief system.

Runner

To claim that the scriptures are the basis for anything is erroneous, as most of values that christianity claims as its domain existed long before christianity, Judaism etc and in areas of the world where the bible had never even been heard of.

Christian values are human values in a dogmatic straight jacket, and some of the most mean spirited people I have ever met were born again christians (not that I don't have genuinely good christian friends)

People are flocking to private schools because they provide a superior education, and the values are typically reflective of the parents. Both my kids go to Anglical church schools where only due to the large number of non anglical students, only lip service is paid to the church.

Ah, but how do you decide what is and isn't morally 'good', Liberal Minded? Personally I do not see a moral dimension to stem cell research per se. It is neither good nor evil. A blob of cells to some is a person but to me and presumably the government it's a blob of cells.

Scientific research is amoral, not pro- or anti-, and needs guidance from the community at large. If a particular program is wanted by the medical community and the public and holds promise I think the government should take this into account.

Consider what other bodies of knowledge the Christian church (of any/all denominations) would have or have in the past prohibited: blood transfusions; the pill; IVF; usury; freemasonry; homosexuality; female ordination; sex not intended for procreation; abortion; condoms.

The best bit about living in a liberal democracy is the liberal democracy bit. If we all listened to the church we'd die sooner and dumber.

See http://www.slate.com/id/2203614/pagenum/all for the latest research on atheism.

It seems the biggest drawback for secularists is they're not part of something bigger.

Shadow Minister,

"People are flocking to private schools because they provide a superior education, and the values are typically reflective of the parents."

People send their children to private schools for all sorts of reasons. One of them is the belief that they provide 'a superior education'. The question is: do they?

Just this week I saw a posh private school's prospectus showing a table comparing its Year 12 results with the Year 12 results of all government schools in the State - a totally dishonest and cynical misuse of statistics. Then, I suppose they are giving parents (and prospective parents) what they want to 'know' in exchange for $20,000 a year.

Now what were those values you were talking about?

Not only do some private schools pay lip service to the church (as you put it); some also pay only lip service to honesty.