Runner,

Your last post is so full of ignorant claims it's hard to know where to start. Here's a try.

1. "The only marriage that I have heard secularist promote is 'gay marriage'. This is sick." No it's not 'sick'; it's just a plain silly allegation. Oh, now I get it. it's the only marriage that YOU have heard secularists promote. So how many secularists do you know?

2. "Many if not most secularist choose to live in defacto (sinful) relationships..." Could you please provide the research basis for your 'many if not most'.

3. ..."so your statistics on Christian marriage breaking down (wherever they come from) are likely to only paint the picture you would like it to paint." Please tell us why Celiva's (unreferenced) statistics are worse than your (yet to be presented) ones?

4. "In case you were not aware the whole idea of marriage comes from the Scriptures." How did people get on before the Scriptures were written? Are married people of non-Christian religions not married?

5. "The Author of marriage knew that children who have a committed mother and father have a far better chance in life than those who don't." A committed mother and father - yes but is it essential that they be married?

6. "Secularism...promotes promiscuity in the name of sex education and then questions why std's are so rampant in society." Evidence please? Where have you seen sex education that promotes promiscuity? It seems reasonable to presume that education about STDs would be preferable to ignorance.

7. "[Secularism] has spent millions promoting its godless dogmas and then blames those 'evil fundamentalist' when their kids can't hold down a relationship or overdose on drugs." Can you demonstrate through evidence that secularism, relationship problems and drug overdoses are causally linked?

netjunkie asks me to respond to his brief 25 September 2008 argument concerning 'Why churches shouldn't pay taxes.' It's good that netjunkie recognises the inequity involved in churches running businesses and paying no tax. The reason why churches themselves should not be exempt from tax is a constitutional one. As I said in the article it is not the role of the Commonwealth of Australia to 'advance religion'. As I spell out in my book, in a democracy separation of church and state should be seen as both preliminary and equivalent to the other governmental separations of powers between the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. Also, I'm not in favour of humanism and atheism receiving tax benefits. It would be partisan and illogical to argue otherwise. I know of a couple of Christian authors who are thinking along these lines. They've realised that being subsidised by all taxpayers including those who disagree with them is a double standard. If we are under no obligation to believe what you believe why should we pay for you to believe it? Exemptions have also made churches complacent. Why bother proseletysing when the tax exempt money just rolls in? Most churches have lost their edge. Max.

anzsa, lets follow your thinking through to its logical conclusions.

"They've realised that being subsidised by all taxpayers including those who disagree with them is a double standard. If we are under no obligation to believe what you believe why should we pay for you to believe it?"

What about other not for profit organisations? Do you think the majority of the community really "believe" in helping the poor? If not, why should World Vision and the like receive tax benefits?

(This is the bit where I roll my eyes at your ridiculous logic...)

You see the fundamental issue is not whether the majority of the community "agree" or "believe" or not (although the majority of the community do identify themselves as Christian, at least nominally). The fundamental issue is whether or not the organisation exists to make a profit. Churches are there to fill a need in the community, unlike organisations who exist solely to make a profit and therefore pay tax. That's fundamentally why churches shouldn't be taxed- it has nothing to do with whether or not the rest of the community believes what they do.

Runner: << In case you were not aware the whole idea of marriage comes from the Scriptures >>

Runner raises ignorance to an artform. Every society on earth has some form of marriage, including the godless heathens and those that predated his precious Scriptures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

Fortunately, I don't think too many people take runner very seriously anyway.

Grey is very black and white about it..

<<The same tired old 'lie' about neutrality. Isn't it strange how the 'neutral' position always seems to line up with secular humanist beliefs.>>

and of course..he is spot on!

I could live with a secular government as LONG as:

1/ It did not prevent me or mine from criticizing any other belief system in this world.
2/ It did not become a cloak for any religious or ethnic agenda.

3/ It did NOT use alleged 'Human Rights' as some new kind of secular Ten Commandments/Moaic/Sagenist law. (Gay rights, Abortion)

4/ Ensured that History and Education were taught in an honest and comprehensive way.

The likelihood of all that coming about is pretty remote so.. we are left with the only alternative... a competition of voices and power.

Unfortunately also, nothing just 'happens' in society..it is MADE to happen.. and unless we are a part of the making of the happening.....we will all end up just staring blankly up at the psycadelic clouds of cuckoo land while it all happens around us.

Nothing like a few home truths to get the secularist on the defensive.
A few facts from the US for those providing none for their arguments and then demanding I come up with what is as plain as the nose on your face;

Divorce is the leading cause of childhood depression. (National Institute of Child Health and Human Development)

75% of adolescent patients at chemical abuse centers are from single-parent families. (Center for Disease Control, Atlanta, GA)

63% of youth suicides are single-parent children. (Center for Disease Control, Atlanta, GA)

70% of teen-age pregnancies are single-parent children. ("Children in Need: Investment Strategies for the Educationally Disadvantaged" - Committee for Economic Development )

75% of juveniles in youth correction facilities are from single-parent families. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1988)

Children of divorce are 5 times more likely to be suspended from school; 3 times as likely to need psychological counseling; 2 times as likely to repeat a grade; are absent from school more, late to school more often; show more health problems.( . Dr. Gene Brody - Study of Competence in Children and Families; Gormely, Newburgh, NY)'

I say again that secularism has done more to destroy the family unit than any other philosophy. Its high priests and followers are just to pig headed to face up to the destruction it has and is causing in society.