Sells,

"Who stains with blood religion's sacred word, And kills, or gains new converts by his sword; Presuming rashly that a gracious God Approves the sacrifice of human blood. Oh, would that God, whose laws I wish to know, On Valois' court such sentiments bestow! The Guises falsely plead religion's cause, No scruple checks them, and no conscience awes. At me those leaders, insolent and proud, Direct their fury, and ensnare the crowd. These eyes have seen our citizens engage In mutual murders, with a zealous rage: For vain disputes have seen their pious care Deal all around the horrid flames of war. You know the madness of those vulgar minds Which faction warms, and superstition blinds; When, proudly arming in a cause divine, No power their headstrong passion can confine." - Voltaire (Canton II, Argument, abridged)

...and we poor seculatists lack a sense of community and humane love.

(Candide, guess you recognize it?)

Well said Martin

See my previous post. Similar notions to yours.

Another variable is that people kill themselves as a result of auditory command hallucinations - sometimes drug induced - but not always. Sufferers of the devastating long term illness of shizophrenia are tantamount examples of this assertion.

Command hallucinations are not egocentric - nor are the results planned. People kill themselves as a result of command hallucinations. The decision to self murder is not egocentric - it is a response to a major mental illness - over which the person often has no control - especially if the person is not appropriately medicated.

Euthanasia is not suicide. I wish people would get that.
Death as a result of command hallucinations is not suicide.
Completed suicide is (usually) a calculated and well planned scenario.

I wish people who do not have a professional psychiatry background would listen and learn - rather than espouse guilt ridden nonsense.

kalweb

Dear BUSHBASHER..you said:

<<4) this is my point. i am not saying that such barbarism is inherent to christian belief, or that christianity is especially susceptible to such barbarism. i'm saying that christianity is not immune from it: your religion has no special status.>>

Glad to see the first bit..

a)"not inherrent to Christian belief"
b)"Not particularly susceptable"

But on c you go off the rails.

c) Christianity is not immune from it.

Now..on this point we need to discuss a little.

A better way of putting this would be:

"Historic manifestations of the Church, due to corrupt and unscriptural attitudes... by rejection of Christ and his Word, by Abandonment of Biblical principle, have scurrilously shown unChristlike behavior toward others"

Your position that you don't care what people believe, but more what they do.... need some careful consideration.

Mainly in the area "why would they do something they did not believe in?" So..Actions betray real beliefs. Thus....by KNOWING what Christ taught and how He lived, you and others can then wisely evaluate any observed behavior.

I don't see this as arrogance, but I'll agree it is conviction.

polycarp, i actually think there's some truth to what you say. it would be a hell of a lot harder to be in the witch burning business if christians actually stuck to the words of christ.

it would also be harder to support murderous preemptive wars. or to support throwing gays in jail. or to confuse muslims with "muslims". or to foolishly over-emphasise purported beliefs instead of actual deeds. i'd suggest there are many more "christians" around than christians.

but once again, i just don't care what "christians" believe, or what they claim they believe. i care what they do. are pell and jensen christians or "christians"? i don't really care, though i would suggest the latter. what they undoubtedly are is nauseating.

BUSHy... your first sentence says it all.

I have no other goal than to arrive at this point when discussing historical Christianity :)

It's called 'Mythbusting' :) it takes a while...but eventually we get there.

Now.. (serious senior Jedi kinda look) "take this knowledge my son..and guard it, and use it wisely in your quest though the jungles of OLO to rescue the princess of truth from the evil dark side's clutches" :)

Greetings Poly,

To understand original Christianity, one needs to look at the Christian-Jewish faith, before the times of Nicaea and Paul.

Herein, see that faith, as a form of neo-Judaism and in context with the late first century with Jews having to make choices about where settle themselves and how express there faith, after Rome destroyed te second temple. If it ever existed, the Q document is lost. If inferences are to be made, one should look at Mark and Thomas, because these Gosplels are closer the event and presumably contain less Chinese whispers.

The catch with Thomas is, that it states that Jesus' spirit accended not his body. Thomas' comment, is consistent with what a Jew say. If accepted, it would cast doubt on three later/younger gospels selected by Nicaea. The NT would be very short indeed!

Also, the incarnation (and ultimately the return) of the Spirit in the Son of Man would take centre stage over, the pregnation of Mary by the Yewah to create an entity that "is" God and the Son of God (because of the Trinity)fated for bodily resurrection.

Dear Sells,

I cite the Christian interpretation of Last Supper as evidence that Jesus did indeed to suicide. There was fore-knowledge, Sells. Can you not see it? Jesus did intend to die. Moreover, the Apostles didn't intervene. Their passivity indicates these "Saints" allowed Jesus' suicide attempt to run its course to a completed suicide.

Jesus - Death by Cop?