Mr Right says it well, by assumption, when he says there is no vibrant etc democracy in the world. There isn't.

You see democracy requires more than a small group to govern and we don't have that. We are governed by small groups of people in either of the major parties and we, the public, do not know who they are. This is actually an oligarchy, not a democracy.

So we don't have democracy at all. Voting does not imply democracy when your voting choices are limited to people you don't know picked by people you never hear of and then have those elected simply put their hand up when told by the power group.

If anyone calls that democracy then I'd suggest the dictionary be rewritten.

As to religion playing any role in politics, it should be banned totally. Why? Simple again. Religion is a fraud, the world's biggest joke on human beings, imposed by, again, small groups of men who use religion as a political tool. And have done so since religion was first invented.

Look at the US where the bible bashers often decide elections. On what basis? Usually fear of the black community or, even worse, fear of an intelligent leader and government.

Religion relies on unquestioning ignorance and any of you can see that with the protection of paedophiles by many different strains of religion. A real religion would never allow such in the first place, let alone hide and protect the offenders. Anyone who actually believed their religion could never commit such crimes.

Beleiving in a God is like believing John Howard is flexible.

Spikey,

Even though you spent a lot more time on justifying yourself than you did on the actual two- line, incorrect assumption, you have said absolutely nothing convincing.

It is obvious that you think it’s OK for any government to do anything it wants to after it has been voted in by 51% of the electorate. This happens. But it is not democratic.

When people vote, they vote in their own immediate interests. Their votes are ‘bought’ by self-serving politicians who always promise improvements which they know will appeal to people’s wants. The right to abortion and euthanasia are just two of the many important issues which you will never hear politicians talking about in their pre-election frenzy. This makes your argument that there has been a democratic vote on the issues, and that your ‘side’ won and mine lost, a complete nonsense. You won’t accept this of course, as you clearly believe that a government can do anything it wishes, and not do what it does not wish to do, once elected. Like the people I referred to, you appear to be a drone who likes his thinking done for him, and you believe democracy is merely the casting of a vote every three or four years.

As longs as we are stuck with only two parties who are little different in any real sense, we need citizen initiated referenda to have real democracy. But the politicians will not allow us to have CIR’s, whose introduction could settle issues such as abortion and euthanasia – and many others which cannot be dealt with democratically now. Contacting local MP’s only attracts the party line.

I, incidentally, have no personal interest in abortion and I hope to die peacefully in bed without the help of Dr. N. But I believe that it is outrageous that people’s rights when it comes to their own lives and bodies are denied them by the likes of John Howard and Kevin Rudd, and people like you

The true Christian voice of Love Your Neighbour was lost when Constantine took over Christianity, to be lost even more when the fake Donation of Constantine became the license not only for British colonialism, but also the freedom that George W Bush is trying to press on Iraq, with the US Green Zone possibly not designated part of the freedom.

Cheers, BB, WA.

I suspect the reason no one hear's this voice anymore is that the vocal 'moral minority' are shouting so loudly to convince us that THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO ARE RIGHT AND WE ARE ALL WRONG.

I think it's more too do with the neo-con-media connection.

Mr Right,

"...you have said absolutely nothing convincing." I didn't imagine I would move you from your pre-disposed position because you've got me pegged. A 'drone'. I'm one of those people who - despite their shortcomings and failures - believe in parliamentary democracies.

But "It is obvious that you think it’s OK for any government to do anything it wants to after it has been voted in by 51% of the electorate."

No I don't, as it happens. I believe in the concept of political platforms and policy mandates and I reasonably expect the government of the day to honour them. If they don't, I object and lobby and vote against them next time.

I don't know why you need to advocate citizen initiated referenda. After all, you know what I think now. "... you clearly believe that a government can do anything it wishes..." and "...it is outrageous that people’s rights when it comes to their own lives and bodies are denied them by the likes of John Howard and Kevin Rudd, and people like you."

So who needs my opinion? You know it already (but in fact Mr Right, on the issues you cite as having my support, you're quite the Mr Wrong).

MrRight is absolutely correct. Government regularly, consistently, imposes it's beliefs through force of law, onto the Australian people, rather than representing them in an honest manner. It's a destructive situation for the Australian people and it certainly is less democratic than it could be. Our leaders right now are too comfortable as they are career politicians who sought power and want to keep it from others.