As I expected the usual racist arguments in favour of Israel dressed up in the language of victimhood. Bleatings about PLO and Hamas terrorism against the Israeli regime which conveniently ignore Zionist terrorism that preceded the founding of both organisations. And not only that. The Israeli state has a record of selling weapons to anti-semitic regimes such as Argentina (under the Junta between 1976 to 1983), apartheid South Africa, and Chile under Pinochet. I am aware other nations also do this but supporters of Israel appear to believe that country is somehow exceptional, always a victim and put it on a very high pedestal indeed (which it inevitably falls off).

"When you smart guys finish rearranging the dictatorial and theocratic Arab countries, and get them to accept non muslim rule, then we can work on loosening the communists grip on China and North Korea, and maybe then we can work on DEMOCRATIC Israel" says Paul.L. (who is absolutely correct to admit I'm smart).

Actually, that is probably the last thing Zionists want. A democratic Middle East, where Arabs and Jews are treated equally, would undermine Israel's reason to be. I said previously that most Jewish people already live outside Israel. That is, not in it (understand?). Zionist emerged and flourished during an upsurge of anti-semitism in Europe in the late 19th Century and of course Nazism gave it another boost. Democracy and genuine recognition of the rights of Jewish people the world over would eventually kill Zionism.

As I said, we are in an odd situation with many Jews (such as the author of this article) supporting Israel but from afar. Most Jewish people are intelligent and don't want to live in a ghetto in the Middle-East. But by choosing that, they unintentionally undermine the Zionist project.

So much talking here about "zionists" - just as an attempt to forget that Israelis have faces.

"Zionism" in the mentioned context is dead for some decades now (yes, there are still some pockets of crazy-settlers who still believe in expansionist ideas, but they are a minority and do not represent Israel).

In reality, the vast majority of Israelis simply want to get on with the lives. They care about their families, their friends, their homes, their job, their lifestyle, their personal freedom - that's about it. They did not choose "to live in a ghetto in the Middle-East" as DavidJS puts it, but were simply born into those circumstances.

The tragedy is, that given the current situation in the Middle-East, which is led by fanatic Islamists, those simple goals (life, family, friends, homes, jobs, lifestyle, personal-freedom) can only be maintained (and even then with difficulty) by means of an independent and national state, a strong army, nuclear weapons, ties with unwholesome countries, occupation, being hard on another civilian population and the ocassional collateral damage, etc. - painfully sorry, but that's how it is.

No amount of "my grandfather was righter than your grandfather" blames is going to alleviate anything. The situation is NOW, and even, supposedly if, you were able to convince the Israelis that your grandfather was righter than theirs, nobody in Israel is stupid enough to offer their neck to the slaughter as a result.

For those who naively claim that "the two sides need to sit down and seriously negotiate a settlement" - well, the TWO sides have done so already, and on their own they would have settled everything long ago, except that in fact there are much more than two sides to the conflict - at least five: Israel, Palestine, Jewish-settlers, Suni-Islamists and Iran (including its Hezbollah arm).

Until you find some magic way to eliminate the extremists ON BOTH SIDES, you should expect no-one to be fooled by words and lay down their arms. Meanwhile, attacking the helpless innocents with your words is simply a form of COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

David JS

"A democratic Middle East, where Arabs and Jews are treated equally."

It exists. It is called Israel. Yes the Arabs do not do as well as the European Jews in that country just as some groups don't do as well here, but Israel like us is a democracy. There is an Arab Cabinet Minister in the Knesset, do you not know that?

And are you aware that Christians, Jews, Druze, Baha'i, etc do not have the same rights in most other ME countries as Arabs, Muslim and Christian, have in Israel. Are you aware that Saudi Arabia doesd not allow Churches, or that Israel has Mosques, Churches, Baha'i temples, you name it?

Or that Israel is home to Jewish, Christian, Baha'i, Druze, Samaritan refugees from nearby Islamic republics? That Lebanon no longer has a Christian majority or a Jewish community. That Iran destroyed Baha'i places of worship which is why that community had to resettle in Israel. Or that Israel settled refugees from Dafur who Egypt rejected?

Or that throughout the ME there are homes stolen from up to a million Jewish refugees? These people didn't enjoy the equal legal status in Morocco, Iraq, Egypt etc that Arabs get in Israel. There has never been a discussion for compensation for these people, strange isn't it.

And have you ignored the growth of Islamic fascism? Perhaps that is not the doing of Israel but the cause of the problem.

David, I recently went into a detailed examination of UN Resolution 181 which shows that nobody living outside the Borders of the State of Israel on the day Arrafat recognised Israel has any legal title to any part of Israel. The right of return is a sham argument, nobody has a right to return to a State in which they are not entitled to citizenship (which under UNRES 181, no Palestinian Arab other than those residing there on the date cited above has any right to).

Keith,the Palestinians could insist forever on only agreeing to peace if they get something they have (1) no entitlement to; (2) no hope of getting; and (3) no way of forcing the other side to give them. I have no doubt of that, the puerile 'Right of Return' argument is a convenient example of just that. The simple fact is, they either compromise and deal in good faith or the status quo continues.

The Settler's will continue to carve out large chunks of the West Bank, in order to force the hand of the Palestinians (land for peace, you've heard of it, I'm sure?). All this time, both sides will have people killed, whether combatants or non-combatants, it really doesn't matter, it is a waste either way.

See Israel is a democracy, the majority of voters have no wish to see what happens if several million Palestinians flood the electorate, so they will vote against the concept no matter how many times it is raised (the Palestinian Arabs/Christians have no wish to be killed as collaborator's so they vote against it too). Wonder what the people in the West Bank or Gaza would vote if they were asked, 'Should we (a) continue to ask for hold out for the impossible; or (b) should we settle for the best deal possible?'

In answer to Logic, first of all the lack of democracy in Israel's neighbours is well-known and a given. For Jordan or Egypt to claim to be democratic would be met with laughter. Also the presence of Arab citizens in the state of Israel is well-known. But they are manageable. When Israel directly occupied the West Bank and Gaza (after 1967 and prior to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority) Arabs were not accorded the rights of Israeli citizens? Why? The argument of demographic suicide. Palestinians in those territories were too numerous (Haganah Bet reiterates a similar argument).

Israel is not the only country where we see the demographic suicide argument in its various forms. In late 19th and early 20th Australia the Yellow Peril loomed. More recently, we were apparently about to be swamped by Vietnamese and now Muslims. Protestants in Northern Ireland worry about being swamped by Catholics outbreeding them. Anti-Muslim hysteria crops up in Western Europe. In Austria, people worry there are too many Jews! In other words, the argument is drearily familar and hysterical as far as I'm concerned. And bigotted. As I said, to argue against too many Arabs who may come to or be born in Israel is like saying Australia has too many Jews.

DavidJS

There is no danger of any other group swamping out other Australians, challenging our democracy, wanting to change our religion and legal system for their own if necessary by force, and wishing to dominate us. But that is what Israel has to face.

Also the track record of Islamic nations over the last 200 or so years is frankly not very good. Israel has good grounds for concern. Also most Israelis would be very happy to see Gaza and West Bank as neighbours with functioning modern democracies. Hamas certainly doesn't want that.

I have to remind you that Israel does have a democracy with universal suffrage, religious freedom, and a separation of powers based on the British system. Israelis cherish that as we do. There is also the Dhimmi system under the old Arab administrations, which almost half of Israel's population once lived under, they don't want a return of that.