R0bert,

Thank you for your carefully considered argument – the ratbags seem to have cleared off.

You say, “do you find it difficult to understand that some will stand up for the rights of people to make choices that they are unlikely or would not make themselves?”

No, I do understand this – in fact it is my point.

I believe men and women should accept the consequences of their own actions. If a man and a woman engage in sexual activity and a child results, then they should both accept responsibility for that child (if underage children are involved then the upbringing of the child becomes a family responsibility).

That is what our forbears understood and why sexual activity was understood to belong properly to the commitment of marriage. And this is still the way we understand it in the church – our young people generally (though not always) marry young and generally it’s not too long before children appear.

Celivia,

Re sex education, this is what we said in our submission to the LRC:

Sex education for school children should be revisited to ensue that a) parents are fully consulted in the development of programmes, and b) the biology of reproduction and matters of reproductive health are not taught without reflecting on the dignity of the human person, human love and supportive relationships. Sex education under no circumstances should serve exploitive purposes, but be holistic, containing information, values and behavioural components. Furthermore, we believe that children should be taught that sex belongs exclusively within marriage. It is this failure to uphold marriage as the place for sexual love that has led to the explosion in abortion and historically, this is a very recent phenomenon.

Celivia,

You challenge me, so I challenge you. Why do you not agree that a referral from a GP be required, counselling be offered pre/post abortion, that if abortions are performed they not be done in day procedure centres but in a hospital, that late term abortions be outlawed as an abomination cases where delivery of the baby can be safely secured.

Why do women seeking an abortion have to end up with second rate care? Why do you support this?

Ask yourself why the obstetrician who safely delivers a 24 week old baby is the hero of the dinner party why the abortionist keeps quiet.

For the record, in my submission to the LRC despite our basic objection to abortion, I left open the final say to the woman to have an abortion, I just want to see her properly supported, and every child allowed life a matter for celebration. Abortion is a sad commentary on the state of our society and one abortion for every three live births a national disgrace. No wonder the figures are not disclosed. Everything to do with abortion is shrouded in secrecy because everyone knows it is a bad thing – there just are some things that you can’t not know, no matter how hard you try to hide them.

Col,

You say, “I fully recognise and acknowledge the negative effects which may come with deciding to have an abortion andthat is why only the woman herself should make that decision, only the woman herself can therefore bear the burden of it if she feels she has made the wrong choice but that is still better than denying her the right to make that choice” – such a male cop out!

You say, “denying people the right of choice absolves them of responsibility”.

Two things:

1. It takes two people to make a baby, so it has to be a shared responsibility

2. As it is, the evidence is that many women caught with an unwanted pregnancy feel they have no choice – deserted by their partner and often by their parents.

David Palmer “1. It takes two people to make a baby, so it has to be a shared responsibility

2. As it is, the evidence is that many women caught with an unwanted pregnancy feel they have no choice – deserted by their partner and often by their parents.”

Actually I thought you would come up with more objections than that, so simply put:

Your point two tends to mitigate against your point one.

It comes down tho this

Her body is the body at risk or being used to host the pregnancy, not her boy friends or her parents.

It is, therefore, her ultimate responsibility, regardless the wishes or expectations of the contributing male or her parents or the wider community.

Regardless if she decides to abort or continue the pregnancy, that she may later regret that decision is her burden to endure. The price of freedom of choice is the responsibility for the consequences.

Forcing her to face the consequences of a pregnancy because she got herself pregnant is not a reasonable limiting condition because we can perform abortions with an acceptable degree of safety (but like all medical procedures, not completely devoid of risks).

Of course, if the pregnant woman does decide to continue the pregnancy, the contributing male partner does bear a responsibility to and for the child.

Either way, responsibilities do not fall at your feet nor mine and any right you feel is yours to object, if she decides to abort, is null and void.

Iwonder,
Yes there are risks involved with abortion, but breast cancer is not one of them. That has been successfully refuted.
“Abortion and Breast Cancer- A Forged Link” http://www.abortion.org.au/breastcancer.htm
“Many reputable organizations have released position statements or articles discounting the ABC link, and citing the Danish cohort study and other reliable studies in support. Such groups include the American Cancer Society, National Cancer Institute, National Breast Cancer Coalition, World Health Organization, Center for Reproductive Law and Policy, Alan Guttmacher Institute, Planned Parenthood Federation of America, and others.”

Besides, there is more risk involved with pregnancy and childbirth then there is with abortion.

David,
There seems to be a misconception about what I support/don’t support.

Counseling:
I support pre/post abortion counseling if women want that.
A woman who has to deal with an unwanted pregnancy should be able to make a well-informed decision.
My problem is only with the kind of counseling that does not include abortion as an option.

Procedure centres vs. hospital,
I’m not convinced or even aware that these clinics provide 2nd rate care. 1st term abortions aren’t a major medical procedure and I doubt that it would require hospital stay. I haven’t made up my mind about this, as I’m not well informed about these centres.

Late-term abortions,
I am in favour of RU486 - these pills are used in the earliest stage of pregnancy to induce abortion by mimicking miscarriage.
After the 8th week of gestation it’s too late for RU486 but surgical abortion is safest in the 1st term (before the 13th week of gestation).
Part of comprehensive sex education involves teaching women/girls to recognise early, subtle signs of pregnancy so that they can have an early abortion rather than a later one if they decide to terminate their pregnancy.
Late-term abortions should only be performed when medically indicated.

Col and Celivia, well posted.

David, I'm pleased to note that there is acknowledgement that sex education is required.

I have problems though with the underlying values that you require be taught.

One the one hand there is requirement that parents are informed what is taught, but than there is no acknowledgement that those values may not be the same as the parents'.

Whether, for instance, marriage is required has nothing to do with sex education, but much with values of a particular group of persons. What are the many kids to think of their unmarried parents? Disobey them and show them disrespect even though they are good parents?

Sex education is about all contraception, when exactly conception occurs, what sexually transmitted diseases are and the lasting consequences of both.

The numbers of abortions will only fall when both boys and girls are fully informed in how to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

Promoting particular morals and a particular lifestyle of marriage and abstinence is a totally separate issue. This is primarily the role of parents to pass on their values to their children.

As a Christian you my regard a person engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage as immoral, but how do you think limiting the access of abortion is going to increase the numbers of people living a moral life according to your values?

Which immoral act is greater, having sex 'immorally' and preventing conception or having an abortion?

I would have thought from a Christian's point of view it would have to be the latter. That's why I cannot understand why the churches are not supporting proper effective sex education more strongly.

Good questions, Yvonne.
I’ve always wondered why it would be more sinful for African soldiers to have sex with prostitutes with the use of condoms than without.

David, my posting limit was up- continuing now.

Unsupported women and responsibility.
Yes, it’s quite sad that women, who don’t feel supported, feel that they have no choice other than abortion if they otherwise would have welcomed a baby.

Col recognises the risk involved for women as well as for men. Very well said.

David, comprehensive sex education teaches not only girls/women about their risk and responsibility, but boys/men too.
I just want to add that I DO find it sad, but it’s the reality some pregnant women are facing.
That you aim to offer these women help and advice is a good thing- as long as abortion remains one of the options.

I must say that I’m pleasantly surprised that you have ‘left open the final say to the woman to have an abortion’.

The times, they are achanging.
Most young people today have no desire to rush marriage and start a family ASAP.
Live and let live.
I lived with my husband for years before getting married.
I can’t imagine marrying someone without even knowing if we’re sexually compatible. What if I found out on my wedding night that he’s heavily into wearing grey socks as an aphrodisiac and I’d find that rather soporific?

But abortion DID happen in ‘the old days’, it went on secretly, and was often reserved for those who could afford it.
My grandmother’s much older sister was urged to have an abortion by her boyfriend’s father, a doctor, who arranged for it. He, a ‘catholic’, didn’t want his own and his son’s reputations destroyed.
My grandmother and the majority of her friends married because they became pregnant. My grandmother didn’t even know where babies come from; let alone how they got there, until she was 4 months pregnant at 20!
The good, old days…

Fornication and abortions have always happened- it just wasn’t announced all over the Internet ; )