I thank Ian D for sharing his pastoral experience. I find it very interesting to be attacked by people who wouldn’t lift a finger to help a young girl caught with an unplanned unwanted pregnancy with “the father” totally lacking in moral scruple, pressing himself upon the girl but unwilling to accept the responsibility of his own actions.

I mean to say, who is there to assist a woman suffering psychological and other damage through an abortion – certainly not the feminists, the Emily list types. I know the organizations and apart from the previous Government’s initiative, the National Pregnancy Support Helpline, they are all Christian based - Caroline Chisholm Society, Pregnancy Counselling Australia, Pregnancy Help Line, etc – I can name 9 organisations in Victoria all run by Christians.

Col what makes you think 18 women sums up the case for damaged women? The book runs to 280 pages with each woman giving her story. Anne Lastman’s book is based on her counselling of in excess of a 1,000 women – just how many women have got to be damaged before you notice?

Jon J says “When David and the church groups he represents have shown their capacity to adopt and raise every unwanted child in comfort and security, then he will have earned the right to criticise a woman's (or couple's) choice.” But this is exactly what the churches have always done – how can you be so blind? The problem today is not nearly enough children are available for adoption (one of the major drivers for IVF) because of abortions. My wife and I adopted two children.

Celivia, in our submission to the LRC we listed better sex education as one action. Why do you limit yourself to this one action.

Robert I suggest you go and get a copy of Melinda Tankard Reist’s book, and then if you have the stomach for it, you might like to have a look at Lastman’s book (having been warned, I haven’t, not having the stomach)

David I think I've already expressed my views on spin and I've seen enough of Melinda's work to get an idea how helpful a book by her would be.

In an earlier post you made a couple of points which I think are more worthy of comment.

"cannot help wondering if they are the same kind of men who say to the unfortunate women they impregnate, “It’s your choice”, as they walk way....." - do you find it difficult to understand that some will stand up for the rights of people to make choices that they are unlikely or would not make themselves?

Should a woman have a choice about continuing an unplanned pregnenacy - yes.
Should the father have a choice about further involvement following an unplanned conception - yes.
Would my personal choice be to walk away - not under any realistic circumstances I can think of.

"my opponents on this thread (Yvonne is the honourable exception) are unwilling to acknowledge Australians disquiet at the numbers occurring" - I've not paid enough attention to the flow on that aspect of the debate on this particular thread but my impression overall is that across the numerous threads about abortion many who support choice don't particularly like abortion (myself being one). That many have expressed a preference for lower numbers by reducing the number of unplanned pregancies.

Better sex education, improved access to contraception, promoting more open attitudes to the human body and human sexuality being some of the points which come to mind.

So for the record I'd rather see no abortions required. How I'd like to see that occur, no unwanted pregnancies because people have the knowledge, resources and freedom to make informed and health sexual choices.

R0bert

Again, let's become proactive rather than reactive.

Let's not focus on what happens after conception, let's focus on preventing conception in the first place.

David, you said,
“Celivia, in our submission to the LRC we listed better sex education as one action. Why do you limit yourself to this one action.”
Can I assume that you define ‘better’ sex education as ‘more effective’?
I’m glad that you’ve changed your mind since last year. Sex education needs to be explicit/comprehensive to be effective.
Abstinence-only sex education is about as effective as no sex education at all.

I just wish that all school children and teenagers were given the knowledge that they needed to prevent unwanted pregnancies through comprehensive sex education. Boys as well as girls need to be educated about the risks that are involved for them and for each other. Women’s risks are obviously different and greater than men’s risks, but both have risk when having sexual intercourse especially when they don’t use contraception.

I’m not limiting myself to this one action; as you may remember from last year’s abortion debate, I’m also pro free contraception and agree with RObert and Yvonne about vasectomies and being proactive.
I hope you have submitted to the LRC free contraception as well- it would be a shame if you limited yourself by not including this very effective way of preventing unwanted pregnancies in the submission.

David Palmer “Col what makes you think 18 women sums up the case for damaged women? The book runs to 280 pages with each woman giving her story. Anne Lastman’s book is based on her counselling of in excess of a 1,000 women – just how many women have got to be damaged before you notice?”

I do not think 18 women is representative.

I do not think 1,000 is representative

As for “damaged” women; how many women were “damaged” by being forced to endure a pregnancy and possibly redirect their lives in the days when abortion was illegal and just for the sake of someone else’s sensitivity?

I fully recognise and acknowledge the negative effects which may come with deciding to have an abortion andthat is why only the woman herself should make that decision, only the woman herself can therefore bear the burden of it if she feels she has made the wrong choice but that is still better than denying her the right to make that choice.

The other point regarding making choices and exercising rights, without people accepting responsibility (which includes the consequences), there can be no rights.

However, denying people the right of choice absolves them of responsibility.

A stunted life is the one where people are denied the opportunity to make decisions which effect them and thus are not allowed to grow through the process of accepting responsibility for the outcomes.

More women would be seriously deprived and damaged through being denied the right to exercise their sovereign right to choose whether to abort than are damaged by the consequences of making that decision.

Not that it should concern you or I. what decisions private individuals make for themselves is entirely their business and not something which should be a primary concern of you or me. In fact, speaking personally, I do not think about or take responsibility for the decisions those ladies seeking abortion make. I will however, continue to defend their sovereign right to be the sole arbiter of those decisions.

Thankyou Ian for your real life observation of the effect of abortion. I wonder if those oppossing those who speak for life, realise the total of side-effects to the woman who has the abortion? People still today bleed out, faced with down the track never being able to conceive again, and if it is a first time pregnancy there is a 50% increased risk of breast-cancer later in life. Yes, these are medically backed facts. So who is the community really hurting when they allow abortion?