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The Forum > Article Comments > Obama and the Palestinian State > Comments

Obama and the Palestinian State : Comments

By David Singer, published 16/6/2008

Barack Obama treads the only path possible on the Palestinian state.

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So here we have another Israeli propagandist distorting the situation to suit his and Israel's ends.

He is a member of 'an organisation calling for sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza to be allocated between Israel and Jordan as the two successor States to the Mandate for Palestine.'

And here he is completely at odds with realities and utterly ignoring the illegal Israeli occupations of land deemed Palestinian/Jordanian under the UN mandate which also created Israel.

Ask this bloke if he thinks the Palestinians should be denied the usual refugee right of return and he'd absolutely argue the negative.

Ask this bloke if he thinks all Palestinian land stolen by Israeli occupation and illegally settled, according to all requirements normally applied(Geneva Conventions and UN resolutions), and he'll also argue the negative case.

If this bloke expects to be taken seriously he'd champion the return on not only refugees but also, as an absolute minimum, the return of all lands stolen and settled as a result of Israeli wars of undeguised conquest.

He won't compromise on either. Is it no wonder peace isn't found in the mid east. Israel propaganda and it's apologists disimformation spreading are the biggest stumbling blocks.

Obama would gain credence if he applied the words of Lincoln and Washington.

Abraham Lincoln:
'… Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands, every where. Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.'

'Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves, and, under a just God, can not long retain it.

Washington
'… Nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave.'
Posted by keith, Monday, 16 June 2008 10:44:53 AM
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The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is unsolvable. It is already 60 years old.

I think that I can remember that the Menzies government was talking of offering a part of northern Australia to the Jews to set up a state of Israel within the Commonwealth of Australia. Can anybody enlighten us on this matter?
Posted by healthwatcher, Monday, 16 June 2008 12:07:12 PM
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I'd have to disagree keith. I can fully understand the Israelis rejecting the refugee return. The country would very quickly cease to exist, once an arab majority was there.

Sure, it's not ideal and it's unfair. But you're asking the Israelis to give up their country.

I reject much of the propaganda that comes from the likes of Lapkin, et al. I reject the notion that Israel is guiltless, and I think they tend to overreact, however the Palestinians are not the innocents you describe, and Hamas's charter is indeed as hostile as the article portrays.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 16 June 2008 12:21:13 PM
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What kind of Jews will Israel allow? WHy doesn't Mr Singer address this issue? How is a Jew defined? And why should a Jew from a foreign country be allowed almost instant citizenship whilst a Christian family whose ancestors have lived in that area for centuries until 1948 or thereafter be denied a right to return to their property?

Mr Singer's logic seems to be based on the idea that Arab peoples are all one people, and that Jews are all one people. Perhaps he should visit the region before making such nonsensical claims.
Posted by BOZO_DAGWOOD, Monday, 16 June 2008 1:10:08 PM
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Look Right

You like the author didn't address the land stealing. Until you do ... well you have no credibility.
Posted by keith, Monday, 16 June 2008 5:33:14 PM
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For crying out loud, keith, you can't make highhanded comments like that on such a complex issue. Frankly, I don't think anyone has answers on the 'land stealing.' Even if they did, it wouldn't solve the problems that exist today.

There are arguments from both sides and none of them are simple. Only those with no 'credibility' pretend they are.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 16 June 2008 6:01:02 PM
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I couldn't let this go without comment:

"They all [Israli Arabs] are Israeli citizens enjoying the same rights privileges and opportunities open to the Jewish majority other than being required to serve in the armed forces."

Arab Israelis are excluded from jobs, must attend segregated under funded schools, face limitations on buying and owning land - the list could go on. They even face restrictions on who they can marry. You have to go to back to the Nüremburg laws to find comparible discrimination. All this in the name of a 'pure' Jewish state.

Yet this guy is trying to tell us Arab Israelis enjoy the same 'rights and priviliges' as Jews! We really get taken for fools by our Jewish friends.
Posted by dane, Monday, 16 June 2008 6:32:28 PM
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Keith

Shooting the messenger and ignoring the message is not very productive. Obama has made it clear he does not accept the Arab demand that former Arab residents and their descendants should be allowed to return and live in Israel. Pursuing this demand can only ensure that no new Arab State will emerge between Israel and Jordan should Obama become the next American President.
Posted by david singer, Monday, 16 June 2008 6:58:48 PM
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Dear Keith....

you quote Washington...

… Our reliance is in the love of liberty which God has planted in our bosoms. Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men.

Neglecting of course that the defense of that defense was in reality A WAR!

Now. given that "my paid zionist accomplice" David Singer, is also using the Hamas (and Palestinian) charter as his reference, do you not see some problems with allowing this 'democratically elected' body to run anything among the Palestinians?

Did you not hear "Sheikh"(aka thug) Feiz quote his own prophet when saying that "the rocks will cry out 'There is a Jew behind me, kill him'"

....and don't you consider that Feiz and Hamaz are twin brothers of the salafist/wahabist mould?

The only 'non-Israeli-dominance' scenario for the region is a very baddddd one for Jews.

I've never heard this 'solution' suggested by Singer before, but I think in reality it is the best! after all this. Absorb Gaza into Egypt, some of West bank into Jordan and the rest Israel.(including the whole of Jerusalem)

Think about it. Then the terrorism that the palestinians cleary don't care enough about to control (Rockets, suicide bombings) will be dealt with by NON Palestinian forces bigger than them.(But not Israeli, so they can't blame the Jews) Israel will have no reason to launch rockets against them.. WORLD PEACE will ensue :)

The main drawbacks to this of course, are written in blood in the history books. Jordan has already tasted the 'palestinian' ingredient in their national life and after the PLO tried to take over the place, they drove them out into Lebanon.

Hmmm.. maybe world peace is a bit of a way off yet?

I'll just reiterate my only real fair dinkum solution.. Jews and Muslims, join with the Christians already there under the Lordship of Christ rather than man..and then there WILL be at least regional peace.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 6:16:08 AM
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David Singer
I'm non-violent and usually oppose violence- unlike those you support. I don't kill or intentionally harm anyone.

You won't have any credibility until you addresss the land stealing and illegal settlements.

Have you checked Obama's position on the land stealing and illegal occupation? I think you'll find it the same as George's.

Turn

The issue of land stealing is simple: it is outlawed under the Geneva Convention. ie International convention and law. It is very simple and straightforward. All Liberal Democratic nations abide by it. Those activities of land stealing and settlement of occupied lands are outlawed. The solution is simple. Return the lands occupied or place them under the soverignity of the new Palestinian state.
And it seems the logic used in David Singer's argument might support return to 1948 borders, or the original demarcation of the original UN mandate. How'd ya like them apples?

Boaz

Why do you continually use the fruphy of Palestinian reactive violence to excuse Israel's disgraceful illegalities. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote your 'book' all you like, I prefer the wisdom of men who have accepted and grown within and assisted the growth of our Western Liberal Democratic tradition. So much fairer, realistic and less violent.

You cannot hide from nor misintrepret nor twist their ideas and writings as you can the mismash of crap in your pre New Testament 'book'.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 11:50:50 AM
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Keep it up, Keith, if you are going by the Geneva Convention.

Trouble is, thought with Israel's lawbreaking through going illegally Nukei'', Geneva is right out of the Palestine picture, anyhow?

Cheers, BB
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 2:07:19 PM
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Dear Keith....

My main focus is on the depth of the problem.

You seem to think from your distance and mindset that there is a simple solution 'if only they would' do such and such.

I've spoken in the past about 'final solutions' because in all honesty I think a decisive victory of one side or the other would fix it all up quick smart.

Then people know where they stand.. and get on with building new lives as every displaced people has had to do.

Please have a look at this vid and you will catch a glimpse of the issue from the Israeli and Arab viewpoints.

Notice how quickly it boiled down to 'Islam/Judaism' and the relative religious history of Islam and Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpMhAzj-Tk

Kedar "It's been our capital for 3000 years.. always has been, always will be"

Arab "Please dont say things offensive to Muslims" ....

Kedar "Jerusalem not even mentioned in the Quran"

Arab ..changes subject.

Please let me know your thoughts on this?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 4:55:32 PM
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From the moment the UN decided for the creation from the state of Israel from this moment started the stealing of Palestinian land and all other problems for Palestinians. I understand that Palestinians are the victims but I know that Israelis do not have many choices. Palestinians are not the only people who moved from their places, if they have accepted money for the value of their land, instead to return back then I am sure the problem could be solved easy. But retuning back they will put at risk the existence of the Israel state, as very soon they will be the majority of the population. IT IS NOT THAT ISRAELIS WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND PALESTINIANS RIGHTS BUT PALESTINIANS WHO DO NOT TRY ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND ISRAELIS WORRIES.
but even if Palestinians was ready for big compromises, Israelis will continue to worry for their future as they are surrounded by hundreds of millions of Arabs or Muslims.
Americans can not do many things for a balanced, fair solution as they have loose their credibility in the Muslim and Arab world.
FOR ME THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR THE ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT IS IF THE ISRAEL BECOME MEMBER FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION, AND THE EUROPEAN UNION UNDERTAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY NOT ONLY TO PROTECT THE EUROPEAN SOIL IN ISRAEL BUT ALSO TO FIND A FAIR SOLUTION FOR ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaid
Posted by ASymeonakis, Tuesday, 17 June 2008 7:16:44 PM
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I agree with TRTL and with David Singer.

Israel is right in not accepting the Palestinian's "Right of Return,"
Israel would cease to exist. The author is presenting us with a fair account of the situation, - one side has to give in - for the sake of peace. But neither is willing to concede and the situation does appear to be hopeless.

Whether Barack Obama can exert any influence is something we'll have to wait and see. Perhaps a 'miracle,' is something that may yet occur in this ancient land.

We can only hope.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 18 June 2008 5:27:38 PM
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Foxy

You too are taken in!

Why won't anyone of you apoligists confront the historical and ongoing Israeli land stealing?
Posted by keith, Thursday, 19 June 2008 8:25:11 AM
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Well well well,

Isn't it great.

Hamas and Israel have agreed to a truce, brokered by the peace loving Egyptians.

Lets all forget our respective prejudices and cheer optimistically for this small but great step towards peace in the mid east.

What do you blokes reckon? I think it's just great
Posted by keith, Thursday, 19 June 2008 3:24:02 PM
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The American Leadership has failed time and again on this because of the Jewish lobby.

Sense tells you that unless the ousted Palestinians are compensated nothing will change. Unless Israel allows back those who want to come back - the displaced, nothing will change. All Israelis should understand that they are going to see bloodshed for hundreds of years.

Israel needs to become democratic, to allow immigration into the country and allow the natural process of representation to mature. If that means the Jewish religion becomes secondary to Islam or Christianity, or secularism then so be it.

Britain is a Christian State. The Church of England is the preferred religion in politics. Israel could do no worse than to follow this example. It can't follow the United States because they have no religion in politics.

The Israeli - Palestinian conflict is about people wanting justice. Religion is secondary to this. Israel has built a wall around itself over which all manner of abuse will rain until they open the doors and let humaity in.
Posted by Barfenzie, Friday, 20 June 2008 9:55:25 AM
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What does your silence indicate? Overwhelming joy?

Yesterday, Hamas and Gaza. Today Lebanon and further talks with Syria. Tomorrow ... yep that's right East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the rest of the occupied territory...

George Bush's legacy might even be a Palestinian State.
Posted by keith, Friday, 20 June 2008 3:12:14 PM
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Keith, I am sorry but you seem to misread the situation dramatically. The idea of stateship, particularly one governed by Hamas, will mean the end of a LOT of Palestinians. It is very simple, did you see what happened in Lebanon? Did you see what happened where a non-State party managed to avoid paying the full price of its overtly hostile acts toward a State from within the boundaries of a neighbouring State?

They only did avoid the consequences by being a non-State party, if they had been a State, then Israel would have been entitled to use full-scale artillery preparation on occupied towns and villages instead of even attempting to use 'surgical strikes'. That would mean less casualties for Israeli forces, because in wars between States civilians move or die, nobody cares. What happened in Lebanon was restricted to a massive extent by the fact that the IDF had to minimize civilian casualties at the price of their own soldiers, when two States are at war, that does not happen (it is the difference between limited artillery for suppresive fire (10 to 100 rounds) and a full-scale bombardment 10,000 to 100,000 rounds).

It really is time to take the gloves off. Now Hamas & Fatah must restrain the terrorists or pay the price for that failure, no more soldier's have to die in Gaza or the West Bank trying to do so.

All in all, a very good move

PS I truly hope that in view of the latest Hizbollah action in Lebanon that the Lebanese cede control of southern Lebanon to Hizbollah as a separate State too. Then there is no need to identify targets, every suspected or even possible target can be pounded to dust prior to infantry or armour having to go near it.
Posted by Haganah Bet, Saturday, 21 June 2008 3:29:46 AM
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Hopefully the current ceasefire will lead to a peace treaty, that would be nice (particularly from a legal standpoint). Nonetheless, the peace treaty with Egypt under Sadaat took care of the problem vis-a-vis ownership of Gaza and large chunks of Southern Israel.

The International Legal Principle is that the Right of Conquest requires at a minimum that land acquired by conquest be (1) completely subdued (until it is the occupation is deemed to be a military occupation only); and (2) under the control of the occupier; and (3) that the position be formalised by the concession by the former owner of that land to the new reality as evidenced by a peace treaty.

As Israel has long since normalised relations in this respect with Jordan, the position on the ownership of the 1948 boundaries barring Jerusalem is also beyond argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace#Article_1:_Peace_established

The International Law on the subject means that such is sufficient to affect an irrevocable transfer of real property in the physical & effective possession of the conqueror from the vanquished to the conqueror. As this is an arrangement between States, UN Resolutions do not intrude and are irrelevant (the UN's charter does not allow it to intrude upon arrangements entered into between member States, particularly peace treaties).

http://tinyurl.com/4b2uzb

Israel is the only State with ANY legal entitlement to the land as Egypt asserted a legal entitlement to the entirety of the area:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/a9e0fddcbef0de3085256e5300526dcd!OpenDocument

Which it ceded to Israel by virtue of its acceptance (Camp David) of a peace treaty with Israel in 1978/9

http://www.incore.ulst.ac.uk/services/cds/agreements/pdf/is14.pdf
Posted by Haganah Bet, Saturday, 21 June 2008 6:32:38 AM
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So in response to moves toward a negotiated peace ... haganah bet gives me a lecture on how Israel is entitled to the Palestinians lands.

Mate you are a warmongering idiot. You don't want peace you want a genocide of Palestinians. Should Israel take ownership of all Palestinian land as you seem to think Israel is entitled won't the people living there become Israeli citizens? If not what do you think is going to happen to them?

Short sighted too. What happens when your precious little Israel is overrun by it's millions of neighbours. Will they have a right of conquest too?

Lebanon showed exactly how impotent are the Israeli military options. Wait till you see the impending disaster if the same incompetent military launch an unprovoked attack on Iran. If you think Iran won't defend it's sovergnity and not retaliate you are delusional.
Posted by keith, Saturday, 21 June 2008 9:04:18 AM
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Keith: "What happens when your precious little Israel is overrun by it's [sic] millions of neighbours. Will they have a right of conquest too?"

The Muslims already claim it, since "Palestine" was once conquered land (Dar al-Islam). Read the Hamas charter lately? Links to it have been posted on OLO lately.

Don't know if you caught a story on the ABC in the past few days, about a West Bank Australian Rules football team out here to play in a tournament. At least three were black Africans! Now we all know Israel has black immigrants, but the "Palestinians" claim to have been in "Palestine" since time immemorial, and none of them are immigrants (despite the fact Yasser Arafat was actually an Egyptian, but we're supposed to forget that). I wonder if these "black Palestinians" are hoping to exercise their "right of return" to um...Israel?

As far as I'm concerned, the Jews are welcome to their tiny plot of land. Muslim claims to that and the Jewish capital, Jerusalem, are spurious except by "right of conquest". If the Jews win back their land, why can it not be theirs by right of conquest?
Posted by viking13, Saturday, 21 June 2008 2:37:23 PM
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keith

It is always good to support the underdog but have you got it right in this case?

You have not taken into account the Arabs who moved into that area after the Jewish settlers had improved greatly the land which they had bought, legally, at great cost, from the owners. You have ignored totally attacks by Arab fanatics on ancient Jewish communities, and subsequent pressures by fanatics to ethnically cleanse all ME lands of infidels such as yourself.
Posted by logic, Sunday, 22 June 2008 9:46:52 AM
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Logic,

Are you trying to suggest I have anything other than a thoroughly decent view of the abuse and wanton behaviour of Israeli's? Are you trying to suggest I have only a banal motive, ie of supporting an underdog, as a basis of my views?

Do you want me to cast aspersions about your motivation for supporting the genocidal and suicidal Israelis?

No I thought not! Please extend your usual respect, this type of exercise is beneath you and your abilities.

I'm for peace, aren't you? Are you cheering the latest moves to peace between Israel Lebanon, Syria and the Palestinians?

How about that agreement with Hamas? Astonishing!
Posted by keith, Sunday, 22 June 2008 10:54:51 AM
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Keith, so your objection isn't what I thought, ie. you did not suggest that the land was not legally Israel's to do with as they please? That is a suprise, but a welcome one.

So your concern is the current political leadership of Israel and the incompetence of the political appointees of the same as demonstrated so recently in Lebanon? Well, with the qualification that most units did as well as could be expected while fighting with both hands strapped behind their backs (by idiotic politicians), then I would agree wholeheartedly and would point out that this is the topic of some serious debate in Israel at present, which should see the problem fixed.

So your other concerns, the ability of Israel to take effective action against Iran, if that becomes necessary are also dealt with. Given the likely consequences of an attack on Iran, the political situation would change rapidly, plus there would be no place for restrictive political motivated restrictions upon the fighting ability of the IDF.

As to your discussion on the agreement with Hamas, there is some possibility that Hamas could morph into a Palestinian Likud (which after all is derived from the terrorist group Irgun). They originally arose from a group who did volunteer work to help the communities and they still mantain clinics, etc. In this respect they are far preferable to the seriously corrupt Palestinian Authority (PLO/Fatah).

Whether they can mantain authority without undertaking military action against Israel remains to be seen, they will not last long if they do.
Posted by Haganah Bet, Sunday, 22 June 2008 4:52:32 PM
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What about Obama?

So far, it is usual talks of terrorists' rights to kill Israelis-both the Jews and Arabs, indiscriminately.
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 26 June 2008 11:38:30 AM
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keith

I suggest you read the following study of Israeli Arabs made by a team from Harvard University. Guess what?

77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.

http://content.ksg.harvard.edu/leadership/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=511&Itemid=115

Perhaps Israel is not so bad after all.

Of course the leader of the research group has a Jewish name, he might be Jewish, but even that does not mean he is pro Israel in any case Harvard has a high reputation it cannot afford to publish poor research.
Posted by logic, Thursday, 26 June 2008 4:18:34 PM
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Thanks logic

I've never thought Israel bad ... only some of it's illegal behaviours... and it's dishonest claims as a non-sectarian liberal democracy.

I wonder at the questions asked by the researcher.
Particularily I wonder whether he asked those arabs if they'd prefer if Israel didn't exist or if they'd prefer to live in true non-sectarian democracies.
Posted by keith, Thursday, 26 June 2008 5:47:47 PM
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keith

Follow the link, it leads on to the original report.

Perhaps the Arabs there would prefer a modern Islamic democracy with western levels of freedom, but it seems that they doubt that there is one. Their way of life in Israel, which they seemingly prefer, is primarily a result of the efforts of Jews.

Perhaps Hamas and Fatah should take note. Gaza and the West Bank could be similar to Israel if they would follow the Israeli example. It would be nice if Christians, Jews, Baha'i and Druze were given equality with the Muslims in those areas. Would you support a right of return for displaced non-Muslims in these areas?
Posted by logic, Thursday, 26 June 2008 9:19:37 PM
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Logic

The report was not merely researched from Harvard. The fact is researchers from the University of Haifa conducted much of the enquiry.

I cannot open the original report. Does it have a discussion of methodology or any information on who contributed exactly what.
Posted by keith, Friday, 27 June 2008 12:11:07 PM
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