Lev,

Your utter naivety never fails to astound me. It is a fact that Hamas want a one state solution. It is a fact that Palestinians make up a majority of the population within the land proposed for a one state solution. It is a fact that in Gaza, Hamas are the ruling party. Indeed it could be considered that they should run the Palestinian Authority.

So tell me Lev, how YOU are going to prevent Hamas from controlling this new one state once you have handed the Palestinians the keys to the country? It is absolute fairytale nonsense to suggest that somehow we could impose upon the Palestinians a civil code which would protect Israelis, and for that matter other Palestinians, from Hamas and the other head hackers.

It’s a fantasy. The Israelis will NEVER go for it because they cannot trust that Hamas and the other militant groups won’t gain power. And you can’t tell me that you have a means of preventing it from happening. Certainly the UN has no ability to ensure it.

The pathetic, yet neverending attempts to compare Israel with South Africa are entirely without merit. Israel’s separation fence is vital for its security. It has prevented hundreds of would be suicide bombers killing women and schoolchildren inside Israel. Every state has the right to protect itself.

South Africa’s apartheid was designed to keep the black population separate from the white community for economic and political benefit. Israel is keeping the Palestinians at arms length because they are at WAR. Hamas has a charter which commits it to Israel’s destruction. It is an obvious distinction, but the soft left refuse to see it, preferring instead the sloganism of imagined apartheid.

The soft-left love to bandy about the terrible events of 1967, always ignoring the fact that the Arab armies were invading Israel for the second time in 20 years. It was only 6 years later that the Arabs had another go. That’s three wars of national survival in less than 30 years, four in you count WW2.

Marilyn your give away lines are so incredibly naive and stupid, I think you are a stand up comedian out of work.

You toss Israel and Judaism aside as unimportant. Israel produces more Noble prizes per capita than any other nation, particularly in science and medicine. In fact the Jewish intellectual output is incredible, there must be something good in that faith/culture. If you ever have the misfortune to have a serious medical condition and survive it is a dead on certainty that something developed by Israel or at least by Jews will be needed for the procedure.

I think the intelligent working section of the world realises that, which is why Israel has so many friends outside of that pathetic academic group which calls itself the left and wouldn't get a square meal if someone else hadn't provided it. Microsoft and Motorola both have major research centres in Israel, they wouldn't do that if they did not realise the excellence of Israeli work. Windows XP and the cell phone are both products of Israel ingenuity.

Israel takes part in the growth of the world, and yes headscarf wearing Arab women receive PHDs in Israeli Universities, tell me, in how many other countries in the Middle East does that happen?

With all this talk about the "rights" of "Palestinians", many seem to forget that Jordan took much of the territory mandated to the new state in 1949, and from which (including the historical state of Judaea) many Jews were expelled. Why is the world community not expecting Jordan to hand this territory back? Why is it that Israel is forever the bogeyman?

John,

Jews do not have a unique language. Neither Hebrew and Yiddish are not exclusively Jewish - either historically or in a contemporary sense, and only a minority Jews speak either as their first language, the cultural-linguistic and etymologically correct definition of 'nation'. Further, Jews most certainly do not have a unique genetic lineage (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/25/medicalscience.genetics).

There is no characteristic which all Jews have in common except their religion. Whilst no religion deserves its own state. Least of all those which have been imposed on the lands of others, all should have the right to practise their faith within any state.

As for the Palestinians, they are an Arabic people who inhabit the region of Palestine. Strictly speaking it is correct to state there is no such thing as a Palestinian nationality, rather they are Arabs who inhabited the country of Palestine. They include Christians, Jews, Muslims and those with no religion. I'm sure there's probably a handful of Canaanite or Egyptian pagan revivialists among them as well.

(The confusion between country, nation and state is one of the great bugbears of any such debate)

I also must say that attempts at childish abuse certainly serve as no cover for a lack or knowledge on a subject. Personally I respect people with a civil tongue more than those without.

Logic,

I don't think anyone in this discussion would disagree (let along Marilyn) that there is a profound intellectual tradition among the Jews and and there are excellent democratic and secular institutional orientations within Israel. This does not change the fact that an exclusive state has been imposed on a population without their consent, or the moral rightness of advocating on their behalf. This is not a football match where there can only be one winner; Israel or Palestine - but rather an issue which we can hopefully reach a just and equal result for all.

Viking13,

Check your maps. The lands which Jordan took in 1949 that were part of UN-mandated Palestine and controlled until 1967 are now Israeli-occupied territory.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/1947-UN-Partition-Plan-1949-Armistice-Comparison.png

Marilyn,

You might have noticed that when the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza Hamas and the other head hackers and human bombs used the opportunity to more effectively attack Israel. Is it any wonder then, that they aren’t keen on pulling out of the west bank. The hundreds of missiles aimed at Israel every day need to stop. The suicide bombings need to stop. Then there can be a peaceful settlement and the Palestinians can have their land back. Land for peace. Israel has form on this. When they made peace with Egypt they gave back the Sinai. Same with Jordan. Israel can be trusted to give back the land in return for peace.

Most Israeli Jews are secular, and if you ask them, they believe that there is such a thing as Jewish ethnicity. That is, that a Jew is defined by more than just adherence to Judaism.

You say>> “Christians, hindus, muslims and so on don't have all muslims... ”

Muslims don’t have all Muslims?? Do you mean Muslim countries aren’t entirely made up of Muslims? Because Israel is nearly 20% Muslim. Palestine, on the other hand is 99.4% Muslim.

Tell me when is a border not artificial? Have you ever seen a line drawn in the sand demarcating states? As for grabbing the oil, if you care so much you should protest by not using petrol. But you should remember that it has made the oil producing countries rich beyond all belief, so I don’t think you’ll find too many of them complaining.

And it hasn’t always been Arabia. Look it up.The Jewish-Roman wars led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the exile of the Jews. A second Jewish revolt in 135 led to the renaming of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina and Judah became known as Palaestina. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Finally, in 1917, when the League of Nations decided to give Britain the protectorate and charged them with creating a Jewish State in Palestine, you would have been very hard pressed to find anyone who considered themselves a Palestinian. That is a relatively recent construct.

This prettymuch reflects my view of Israelis.

A recently discovered diary of President Harry S. Truman indicates that the former president may have had a strongly negative opinion of Jews. In the diary, which includes 42 entries written in 1947, Truman recounts a conversation he had with Henry Morgenthau, the Secretary of the Treasury, who had phoned to discuss the fate of Jewish refugees. In criticizing the approach of Morgenthau, who was Jewish, Truman wrote in a July 21 passage,

“The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog.”

Either the rational Israelis who realise that the present road leads to disaster, take over, or things continue on until enough people get really pissed off and Israel falls.

the choice is simple, but stark.