Some Muslims have tried to reform Islam but they are presently living in the West. If they expressed such ideas in Muslim countries they would most surely meet with stiff opposition and be put down. Mahmud Mohammad Taha of Sudan tried to reform Islam but was executed in 1985.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Mohamed_Taha

So the hopes and dreams of goodthief and Paul.L of a reformed Islam is never going to happen, not in Western countries nor in any Islamic country.

“The refusal of the Western elite class to protect their nations from jihadist infiltration is the biggest betrayal in history. It is rooted in the mindset that breeds the claim that “force is not an answer” to terrorism, that profiling is bad and open borders are good, that “true” Islam is peaceful and the West is wicked. The upholders of such claims belong to the culture that has lost its bond with nature, history, and the supporting community.”

Serge Trikovic discusses the Western elite class attitude in light of the findings of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) based in Vienna. The EUMC diligently tracks the instances of “Islamophobia” all over the Old Continent, which it defines by eight red flags:

http://www.islam-watch.org/Europe/Counter-Jihad-Can-the-West-Be-Saved.htm

How often does it need to be said? Islam claims universal application: that is, to be applicable to all races. (I'm sure when other universes are found, Muslims will claim that they should be Muslim too.)
This being the case, to be against Islam is not be against a race, but against a religion.
Writers such as the current one are only interested in protecting Islam from justly deserved criticism. All ideologies, political systems and religions are facts, and open to examination, criticism and condemnation. If Islam is getting a bit of the criticism it richly deserves, then counter that with good agruements, not calls for special treatment.

Dear Socratease...yes, I'm basically in agreement with your post responding to mine.

I guess we cannot entirely remove ourselves from the reality of people writing or interacting 'as' something.. race or culture or religion, but my primary concern is the racial/cultural. On the religious issue, its probably a bigger issue in terms of separateness.

For example, no serious Muslim or Christian or Jew would be happy for their son or daughter to marry 'out'side of their flock. The difference is, how each group might respond to such an event.
-Some Jews hold mock funerals for their erring offspring. Others would be ok with it.
-Some Muslims would hold a funeral of the child they killed themselves, others are not so hot headed.
-Christians? well.. we grieve in our hearts, advise, guide, counsel, encourage... and I suppose there might be some unbiblical ones who disown their children for that.

But sure, as far as we can, lets all simply see ourselves as Aussies and people. Ethnic tags are more serious than religion in my view.
There is nothing worse than a parent who refuses their child to marry one of another race.. for simply 'racial purity' reasons.

We cannot do anything about our race or ethnicity, but in matters of faith, we can make our own decisions.

blessings.

Pericles..CJ.. r u 2 twins ? :)

CJ.. at least you are the 'good' twin with a sense of humor.. Pericles is the 'evil' one.. I don't think I've ever seen a hint of joy in his posts.

Regarding John Greenfield's posts...each to his own, and by all means criticize where it is due.

Here is something to get you blokes going :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPmw5EABWmE&feature=related

But wait...there's MORE.. it gets better!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaaDbGgsKA&feature=related

and yet..it gets better STILL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh503w_YLe4&feature=related

Say what you like about this bloke..but you cannot deny is oratory skills :)

Don't worry, others do take his position to task.

http://www.letusreason.org/Popteach7.htm

Passy

Oh dear. A Marxist (almost as vile as an Islamist, same nutty utopian eschatology) having the gall to have a go at me. What a hoot!

WTF does John Howard have to do with ME!? And how dare you compare Aborigines, Jews, and the people who have built this nation to nutjob Islamists!

"Your diatribe against Lebanese Australians is enlightening."

Hmmm..in my dictionary, "enlightening" does not mean "non-existent." Because that is what this alleged "diatribe against Lebanese Australians" is. Non existent. Apology please.

"Most Lebanese in Australia are Christians."

Well bully for them. You are telling me this because er, why, exactly?

"Presumably that is of little import to you. They are all wogs in your bitter twisted little mind."

Actually no. In Australia, it is Greeks who are "wogs."

I hope this helps.

Thanks socratease for being conversational. Though I use my own language, I “agree” that we need to be patient and persistent, and that if many do a small thing it amounts to a large thing. I believe in people power. I’m less optimistic than you, but that might just be because I’m silly, or of course perhaps you are. :)

You say, “The mosques in Australia are all teaching tolerance and acceptance”. This statement will come under fire, so I’ll just ask:

i) All?

ii) How on earth do you know?

Philip Tang, you say “the hopes and dreams of goodthief and Paul.L of a reformed Islam is never going to happen”. I understand your pessimism: I feel most of it myself. However, it’s hard to say what you say with any certainty, isn’t it? Second, even if the prospects of reform are as slim as you say, what do you say we in the West should do (regardless of how we feel)? Should we act in a way that improves the prospects, or not bother? Certainly, it would be easier to simply oppose Islam at every step - but it might not be justified.

Pax,

Actually,goodthief,one cannot speak for ALL mosques monitoring speeches but one has to accept with good faith what one is told by men and women of good faith.There is still a margin of error,is there not? The mosques that is well-credentialled may well serve only as a recruiting place. There is no perfect surveillance system.But in an evolving process the negative and failing to adapt soon gets eliminated especially when the mosque-goers are getting on in life and achieving their share of the good life. I believe that happy people make happy and worthwhile contributions to their community and are able to withstand the overtures of political seduction.There is the honor oand well-being of happy and succesful family members to be considered,too.If this gets to be widespreadthen the community begins to breathe fresh air again and life is good.

It is so important for all people to be accepted and be happy with each other.It sure will beat the hell out of surveillance and suspicion. I beiieve that the process has been set in motion. The dark brooding men oif hate will be defeated by the goodness they come up against in their own community.

In the meantime, we can assist the growth of social virtue to which I stand firmly committed by being tolerant...no.more than this going out of our way to make these people feel part of our family whom they will come to want to protect because they feel accepted and want to be a part of andtherefore want to protect.It would feel like it is their own,and to which the ones they love are feeling comfortable in and succeeding in.
I know that the occasional lapse will occur and some of us may die under their hands but in the end goodness will prevail because they will want it to.They will sort these hate-filled bastards out and get rid of them.

Socratese.