Spy,

I don't think that the "greater Israel" policy is promoted heavily in Israeli politics, but this is a relatively recent phenomenon. Extremist antisemtic racism ran deep in Israeli policy for a very long time. The following is a Hansard quote from a British Conservative cabinet minister from 1973.

'After lunch, the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee spoke with great intemperance about the Arabs. When he drew a breath, I was constrained to say, 'Dr Hacohen, I am profoundly shocked that you should preach of other human beings in terms similar to those in which (Nazi) Julius Streicher spoke of the Jews. Have you learned nothing?' I shall remember his reply to my dying day. He smote the table with both hands and said, 'But they are not human beings, they are not people, they are Arabs.'

Spy, Paul,

With regards to Barak's Camp David talks in 2000, the actual content, as you would know, has been secret for a long time. However late last year a dossier of the negotions were published in Haaretz. The disconnected state of Palestine would be less than 20% of their historic homeland and would lose virtually the entire Jordan Valley, the only seriously fertile area in the region. Huge sections of Jerusalem would be annexed to Israel. Israel would have continued with 400,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank, with linked security roads turning the Palestinian towns into isolated enclaves.

Under this 'offer' it is hardly surprising that Arafat rejected the proposal.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/printer9181.shtml

Paul,
In the same spirit of fairness I will ignore Boaz David’s inarticulate diversion that referred to the number of MPs . Let’s concentrate on the issue of ministers.

Let’s start then by agreeing then to compare apples with apples. Israel aspires to be a democracy so we will compare it with other democracies. We won’t compare it with New Zealand or Canada which have significant minorities because, as you have pointed out, Israel has some unique features that don’t apply to these countries. No, let’s compare it to the world’s greatest democracy, which is of course India.

Israel and India have a lot in common. They are almost the same age. The proportion of Muslims in India is of the same order of magnitude as that of Arabs in Israel. India suffers from terrorism (including Islamic terrorism). Both countries have been through several wars with countries with whom their minorities tend to identify. Both countries lost prime ministers to terrorists etc. On every score that you want to measure Israel against, India is similar.

So now that we have eliminated all the variables that you listed we can look at the numbers. How do you think Israel rates next to India? Would an India supporter hail such a tiny proportion of ministers as Israel’s? Hint: India has even had a Muslim president.

I think this is a key question that you raised but I will do you the courtesy of answering your other question viz “Do you really expect settlements like East Jerusalem, Ma'ale Adumim or Modi'in Illit to be handed over?” The answer is “bloody oath”.

All the arguments about the land are irrelevant. Stolen property must be returned. A few weeks back a huge amount of 100 tonnes of chocolate spread was stolen in Israel. A grocer was caught with 1-tonne of it. The police concluded that he was telling the truth and he did pay good money for it, But he had to give his entire stock back…

I may not be the prophet Natan or even Aesop but I think you get my drift.

Sol

Lev, I accept your comments about the racist element in Israeli politics. However, as you acknowledge, this racist element is not at the forefront of official Israeli policy today.

My comments were mainly a response to Marilyn's ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims about Israel following a "Greater Israel" policy. While one may have been able to mount that argument with some credibility immediately after the 1967 occupation, events since then - peace treaties, return of the Sinai and Gaza - destroy any argument that Israel is seeking to expand its territory. That was my point and I stand by it.

Re the 20% statistic you quoted in relation to Camp David: while this may be correct in terms of historical Palestine it's irrelevant in the context of negotiations for a future Palestinian state. The relevant marker is the Green Line (1949 Armistice Line), not what may have been Palestine during the British Mandate. Against that measure, Barak offered what would eventually become 91% of the West Bank

Sol,

1) India is not strategically at risk, as Israel has always been, to an invading force cutting the country in half by driving the 100 odd kilometers to the sea. The settlements were emplaced strategically to make it more difficult for an invading army.

2) India is a huge country with a history of self ruling states and principalities. Israel doesn’t have this tradition at all.

3) Whilst India and Pakistan have fought a number of wars, most were over peripheral issues, like Kashmir or Bangladesh. None have been wars of annihilation as the Israelis experienced three times. Whilst violence flares between Hindus and Muslims on a regular basis, the Muslims, in general, aren’t looking to take over the country. In any case the Indians have no problem with retaliating with terror acts of their own which tends to keep the status quo.

4) Whilst India now has a growing middle class in its cities, in the rural areas India is best described as a third world country. Israel is the only democratic, first world country in its region. If you want to go back to the ways things were 60 years ago we could dramatically redraw a map of the world.

5) Indian Muslims don’t claim India as their own land to the exclusion of the Hindus, Sikhs. There is no chance of India being deprived of its Hindu character, nor being forced to live under sharia law. Muslims—mostly Sunnis—make up 13.4 percent of India’s population, yet hold fewer than 5 percent of government posts and make up only 4 percent. Currently there are 12 Muslim members of the Knesset out of a total of 120 which is 10%. Out of a population of 7,184,000 there are 1,144,000 Arab Israelis or roughly 15%. The Israelis are doing basically twice as well as the Indians at ensuring adequate representation.

6) The role of President in India is titular and relies upon the advice of the Prime Minister. I don’t know of any Muslim PM’s.

Paul,

Curiosity killed the cat. 12 Muslim members of the Knesset? I'm not saying you are wrong. It is just I have never seen it before. (Granted that there's the first time for everything.)

Just to give you an incentive to do you your homework and deal with my scepticism, I will make/bake an extra passover cake for you if you can come up with 12 Muslim members of the current Knesset. [I'm assuming you are in Melbourne or you have friends here who can enjoy the cake]

Of course I may not have to make the cake...

Sol the chef

Sol

I must beg your pardon, I meant Arab members. Here they are.

Mohammad Barakeh, Taleb el-Sana, Nadia Hilou, Raleb Majadele, Said Nafa, Ibrahim Sarsur, Hana Sweid, Wasil Taha, Ahmad Tibi, Majalli Wahabi, Jamal Zahalka, Abbas Zakour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_members_of_the_Knesset