Lev,

Deliberately devious and precious as always.

I wrote ...

“China has OVER eight languages ...”

I apologise for not adding up each and every language. I thought of those that
came immediately to mind.

Lenin’s design for a world language was less benign than the other groups you mention.

I did not disparage the idea of indigenous people having their own micronations.

I stated my support of preservation of languages, even reintroduction of these where possible- and that includes languages of our own indigenous peoples.

You read into my comments regarding the conflict of opinion between the National Museum of Australia and the Australian Commonwealth about the status of the micronation of the Principality of the Hutt River ... and my throw-away comment about “civil war” ... as condemnation of the right of aboriginal self-determination.

Ye gads Lev, you have some mighty problems with comprehension.

Your education is lacking if you are unaware of the issue of language tests imposed by the Australian government in the past in determining citizenship ( ... or was it just entry to this country). And Lev, some of the language tests candidates were supposed to “pass” were not even in English. A not very subtle way of keeping certain peoples out.

And you don’t believe your ideas are an open invitation to abuse ...

Different Arabic languages and dialects are spoken in Gaza and the West Bank, both within and distinct from each terroritory. Far be it, that the majority speak standard Arabic.

Some indigenous women and I had a conversation not very long ago, just as women do. They blamed the plight of their peoples on the emasculation of their menfolk - their men had lost their traditional positions and roles within their communities. These had been taken away from them by interfering whites, whom had no concept of tribal lores, nor practices, nor religious mores - indeed individuality; whites who believed themselves to “know better”.

Lev, take a bow, you are a prime example of their damnation.

cont ...

Regarding Jews, Palestinians, and “dispossession” ...

During the British Mandatory period , Brits ignored the unrestricted illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria. So bad was it that in 1930, the Hope Simpson Commission condemned this practice.

Illegal Arab immigrations from elsewhere, witnessed the Arab population increase 120% between 1922 and 1947

... yet Arabs complained they were being displaced - an excuse to continually attack Jewish settlers. Not nationalism. They didn’t attack the Brits. In fact, spokesman for Palestinian Arabs, Haj Amin, never asked Britain grant them independence. Instead demanded in a letter to Churchill, 1921, the territory be reunited with Syria and Transjordan.

Hope Simpson himself stated that Jews were being badly exploited by wealthy Arab landlords in land purchases. The Lewis French survey of 1931 found that only 600 Arabs were landless, yet only 100 accepted Government land offered them.

Transjordan’s King Abdullah wrote in his memoirs:

“It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping”
(King Abdullah, My Memoirs Completed (London, 1978), pp.88-89.

By 1947, Jewish land holdings in Palestine amounted to some 463,000 acres - 45,000 acres acquired from the Mandatory Government, 30,000 acres purchased from various churches, and 387,500 acres purchased from Arabs.

References:

Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948 (Academic Committee on the Middle East, 1976)
Michael Curtis et al, The Palestinians (NJ, 1975)
Shabtai Teventh, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War (OUP, 1985)
Palestine Royal Commission Report (the Peel Report) (London, 1937)
Yehoshua Porath, The Emergence of the Palestinian-Arab National Movement 1918-1929 (London, 1974)
John Hope Simpson, Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development (London, 1930)
Lewis French, Report on Agricultural Development and Land Settlement in Palestine (1931) Supplementary Report, April 1932)
Abraham Granott, The Land System in Palestine (London, 1952)

I intended to include page numbers (chapter and verse), however, why should I make it any easier than providing the references themselves

Danielle,

The test you refer to was introduced as clause 3(a) of the Immigrantion Act of 1901. It stated that visitors to Australia could be subject to a dictation test in a unspecified European language.

It was rarely used, but was against the Egon Kisch (German nationality, Czech citizenship, Jewish heritage, communist politics). Skilled in a number of languages, the test was conducted in Scots Gaelic which, at the time, was spoken by 1 in 600 Scots. The High Court subsequently ruled that Scots Gaelic, was not a European language.

The Jewish Museaum in St Kilda held a symposium on Kisch in 2004. Dr. Heid Zogbaum's book "Kisch In Australia: The Untold Story" will provide you the necessary education on the matter.

Let me return to the topic and reiterate - for Paul and yourself - the principle of the rights of national state determination.

If a group of people who are indigenous to a region who are a nation, as defined as having shared first language status, wish to form a their own state or states, they should be allowed to do so.

You have provided me the possibility of more reading on land sales prior to the formation of the Israeli state, but I do note your strange attempt to avoid of the extent of the Absentee Property Law of 1950. Indeed only one of the numerous texts you reference even deals with that period.

For a matter of interest, I was the President of the Aboriginal Affairs Policy Committee for a number of years for the Victorian branch of the ALP. We approached our task with humility and with dedication. We involved indigenous leaders in our policy development because we thought that indigenous people themselves knew their own issues best. We acted entirely against the "white man knows better" approach of assimilation in favour of self-determination and independence.

Your comments are grossly offensive and incredibly ignorant, albeit quite consistent with your immature character.

I see no further need to discuss any matters with you.

Lev,

You said >>"I am not sure how many individuals in Israel have Hebrew as their first language. In any case if they did indeed want to have their own state of course they would be entitled to it."

Yep. That’s where I thought your dogmatic approach would have to lead you. It also makes a mockery of your one state solution doesn’t it?

I think a pragmatic approach, in issues as complicated as this, is demanded. I feel for the Palestinians but unfortunately for them they don’t seem to throw up too many pragmatists.

Regards the land situation in Israel, this is very different to what you were saying before. You suggested that the Israelis controlled 90% of the land. When I clarified by asking if you meant 90% of the mandate of Palestine, you said yes. And you provided a reference. Now you are trying to suggest that you meant within the borders of Israel proper. You might like to own up to that whopper.

In 1947/1948 Israel was fighting for its very existence. It does not surprise me in the least that PC notions of fairness were thrown out the window. The holocaust was barely two years in the past and they were fighting for their families, their future and their very existence. I don’t think you should be standing in judgement.

After all, as Benny Morris said, ethnic cleansing should be preferred to ethnic slaughter.

I was never suggesting that the pro integration militias were TNI units. What I was pointing out is that they were largely a creature of the TNI, in much the same manner that the Taliban were a creature of the Pakistani ISI. They used them for their own purposes and had important influence in their activities.

If the Indonesians had said “no”, there would have been no peace-keeping mission. Agreed?

Interesting that Israel have recently said they are prepared to give back the Golan in return for peace with Syria. This just further demonstrates the fact that Israel will return Palestinian lands when the Palestinians stop trying to kill them.

Lev,

Thank you for the interesting information regarding clause 3(a) of the Immigration Act of 1901.

“ ...no further need to discuss ...”

... and ... I was going to ask your permission to use your description of me:

“ ... a lying, immoral troll, and a parody of a human being ...”

I’d have liked to use this as dialogue for a work I am writing. The character speaking is a sympathetic one ... and I did so think that this vivid imagery would be appropriate ... In all honesty, I couldn’t come up with anything quite so compelling.

One must acknowledge your hard work for our indigenous peoples as President of the Aboriginal Affairs Policy Committee for the Victorian branch of the ALP. .. What happened ...?!

Whilst both Hebrew and Arabic are both official state languages in Israel, Hebrew is the language spoken by most, and most often.

From a one-state Palestinian solution, Lev, have you now gone to atomised multi-nation-states solutions? Back to original tribal units, even nomadic?

Is statehood then applied to the people themselves or some physical territory? Bedouin are Israeli citizens and enjoy full rights. However, use the Bedouin as an example. They have no truck with Palestinians, nor Arab states; nor would Arab states permit them entry.

Indigenous peoples? What about the massive illegal immigration of Arabs from elsewhere? Many Palestinians would not know their origins.

Admittedly, Palestinians have been exploited by such as Arafat; but they have had $billions poured into them. Where is the demand for accountability from donor states.

The West Bank, at least, could have a decent infrastructure, and viable economy. The issue of the illegal settlements, with which we don't agree, could be put aside temporarily. Rather cutting off one's nose ... Serious efforts by Palestinians to establish a progressive independent state would see Israel's support - and address of the settlements.

One can only assume that Palestinian leadership is diverting attention to the "sins" of Israel, whilst diverting capital to itself.

(cont ... from above)

Even being under constant seige, and threat of war, Israel’s laws are not fosilised in stone. Israeli Jews, particularly, are vocal and active, indeed strident on a whole range of issues.Then there is the saying: “Two Jews, three opinions.” All Israeli’s enjoy freedom of speech.

Regarding: Absentee Property Law of 1950

Read: Israel’s "Constitutional Revolution" of 1992.

The Israeli Supreme Court (1992):.

“Equality is a fundamental value of the State of Israel. Each [public] agency in Israel - and above all the State of Israel, its agencies and employees - must act equally between the different individuals in the State. … The State's duty to act equally extends to all its actions. It applies therefore also to the allocation of State land. (Par. 21, 23).”

A couple more works:

David Kretzmer, “The Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel” (Westview Press, 1990)

Kretzmer is founding director of the Centre for Human Rights, Hebrew University,Director of the Minerva Centre for Human Rights, Member of the UN Human Rights Committee from 1995-2002, vice-chairperson 2001 and 2002

Kretzmer provides an historical overview of rules of land possession in the Ottoman and British Mandate periods, including that preceding the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. He makes historical examination of ideological and legal aspects of the Jewish-Arab conflict over land in Palestine; also analysing Property rights in other countries.

Professsor Yifat Holzman-Gazit, “Land Expropriation in Israel: Law. Culture and Society” (Ashgate, 2007)

Holzman-Gazit examines the undemocratic, land expropriation, legal philosophy which was applied by the Supreme Court to Arabs and Jews alike from the creation of the state in 1948 and until the 1980s.

Holzman-Gazit analyses the constitutional change of 1992 and its impact on the legal treatment of property rights under Israeli law. She demonstates the application, with recommendations as part of successful management of any global project.