>>Thank you for the bible lesson (Kings Chapter I iirc). Perhaps you forget that I regularly give church services myself.

>>And you wonder why organisations like Hamas exist?

A pastor justifying the genocidal doctrine of Hamas eh? He's got to be from the Uniting Church.

Passy,

>> “If it is such a great democracy why can't Palestinians return there?”

What blindingly naïve logic. How much german immigration do you think we had here in Australia during ww2 and ww1? Even that is not a close enough comparison. When the Palestinian people are at war with the Israelis, how can you expect the Israelis to take Palestinians into their country. They have enough trouble with suicide bombers as it is without inviting more in. Do you believe for a second that with the influx of returnees there wouldn’t be huge numbers of militants? What kind of country WOULD accept that kind of SUICIDAL act?

The Apartheid comparison is banal, simplistic and obviously appeals to the really stupid. Apartheid was practiced in South Africa in the one single country. Black South Africans didn’t have the UN mandate to create a state of their own. Nor did white South Africans. Israel and Palestine have UN backed mandates for their existence. Furthermore Israeli Arabs have the same rights as their Israeli counterparts which was not the case in South Africa during the Apartheid years.

Why don’t you extend your “rainbow” nation concept to China-Tibet? Or China-Taiwan. Surely the Chinese are the majority in the combined lands of the two countries? Why don’t you push the North Koreans to roll over and allow the more numerous southerners to rule a combined country? How about East Timor and Indonesia? There are dozens of other situations like this where ownership is hotly disputed. Should we use your simple formula for them all?

If a secular Palestine is to be the long term answer the short term answer has to be the destruction of Hamas and Pan-Islamism.

SJF,

The quote you give doesn’t mention the supporters from the western soft-left (probably because there are so few of you). Your argument, that somehow pointing out who supports the loony idea for a single state pigeonholes you, is funny. If you don’t like the company you are in maybe you should pitch your tent elsewhere. There was certainly nothing factually incorrect in the quote.

Marilyn,

Silly pills? You’ve got the monopoly.

Your refusal to read the Hamas Charter speaks volumes about your lack of intellectual honesty. You seem to be taking the “Nyah, Nyah. I can’t hear you approach”.

You say Israel made Hamas exist because they “didn't want to deal with Fatah and the corruption ..” WTF gave you the idea that Israel created Hamas. Hamas was created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. I bet you don’t even know who the Muslim Brotherhood are. You might get some insight into the connection between Hamas ( The Islamic resistance Movement ) and the Muslim Brotherhood if you bothered to read Hamas’s charter.

>> “Hamas was a charity organization that did not very much at all beside feed people when Fatah would not.”

If you knew anything about pan Islamic extremism you would know that charity work is one of the first stages of the radicalisation process. It goes hand in hand with proselytizing. See the Islamist by Ed (Mohammed) Hussein and find out about fundamentalist Islamic organizations like Hizb-ut-Tahir and how they go about inciting extremism. Christian groups use this tactic as well, although generally not to recruit murderers.

All democratic states jail people who break secrecy agreements they make with Intelligence and Defence organizations. It’s called treason.

>> “Israel does not want peace with anyone. They want Hertzl's dream - all the land from the Litani river in Lebanon, across half of Jordan, part of Syria, all of Palestine and the Sinai and they don't want any Arabs anywhere in sight.”

Oh? So how do you explain the Israeli pullout from the Gaza strip and four of the settlements in the West Bank? How do you explain the fact that they have signed a peace agreement with Egypt on the fate of the Sinai that has lasted 30 years?

I know you haven’t the guts to respond directly to these points or to Spy’s but at least it shows to the rest of OLO what a fake you are.

Spy,

1) I will agree with both you and Marilyn here. There are a number of religious fundamentalists who want to see a Jewish state from the Nile to Euphrates, as promised in the Torah. I will also agree that there is a number that earnestly want peace with their neighbours. Generalising "Israel" here, a disparate and changing state, does not help anyone.

2) Again I agree with both yourself and Marilyn. Judiasm was indeed a religion which originated among Semitic people. Whilst no doubt this would mean that for most it is a spiritual homeland, it is difficult to suggest that there is a necessary national tie between many Jews and the Palestinian region. As a trivial example, I cite the Jews of Uganda as a population who have no historic tie.

Themistocles,

As I previously mentioned, I am yet to see any who suggest that Israel itself is not among the most advanced liberal and democratic states in the region; although there are some (and myself included) who consider the comparison between South African apartheid and the bantustans with Israeli hafrada and the occupied territories to have a great deal of accuracy in terms of policing, distribution of wealth, life expectancy and, perhaps most importantly, ideology.

This aside you do reveal a fundamental problem; as you acknowledge it is an "outpost of West civilization". Indeed, one could say it is a colonial state - and that is a serious problem for any who believe that indigenous people are deserving of respect and rights.

David,

Whilst I hardly see why my particular denomination is relevant, if you must know I'm a Unitarian-Univeralist. Next time tho' I do recommend you at least google 'Sol Salbe' before accusing him of being ignorant of Israeli current affairs. You may discover he is recognised as one of Australia's experts in the matter.

Sol,

Didn't realise that you'd have the time to deal with the craziness of Online Opinion. Nice to see you here just the same ;-)

'Israel and the Palestinian Authority are working together with great difficulty to establish an Israel and a Palestine living side by side together in peace,...'

Hahahahahahahaha

Not one word about the establiahment and 'thickening' of the illegal Jewish settlements on stolen Palestinian lands. How can this sort stupidity and denialism lead to anything but the eventual destruction of the Israeli apartheid state.

I have written on other posts that the road to Jerusalem may well run through Cairo.

Does anyone know know what is going on in Egypt right now?

Is it true a strike wave has broken out? That Mubarak has arrested hundreds? That troops now occupy Mahalla, an industrial area where strikes and demonstrations against the dictatorship are under way? That the armed forces have killed at least 4 people?

If true, the repression by the dictatorship and the fight against it appear to be on a scale of that in Tibet.

Socialist Worker in the UK,a small socialist group of five or ten thousand, is describing it in terms of of the Egyptian intifada. But they are given to seeing reality in possibility.

Any other reports people know of? The Australian ran an AAP report which implied Mubarak had succeeded in repressing the movement, but I am not sure.