Sol,

Please explain to Lev “what is a Jew”.

Lev,

I understand what you say about freedom fighters and the targetted killing of collaborators. However, there is a vast distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists. We have gone over this ground before, but I will continue to repeat myself until you can really define the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.

You are aware I lived in Malaya for seven years during the communist emergency. Terrorists - as distinct from freedom fighters - imposed their will on the innocent. They needed money, harbouring, information, and compliance. They used the carrot and the stick, but found the stick much more effective to achieve their aims of intimidation and fear. The stick was indiscriminate bashings and killings. Among their methods, they ambushed and shot up buses, and other vehicles, overturned cars, dousing them with petrol, setting them on fire with people inside. We lost friends. However, we were colonialists and this was not unexpected. At fourteen, I knew how to use arms and hand-grenades.

At fifteen, I stood amid the immediate aftermath of hand-grenades lobbed into a packed cinema. No Europeans, no foreigners, but local families with children and toddlers, and babies. The dead were fortunate, very fortunate. The cries from the dying and injured were not human; the stench from vomit, blood, open body cavities and cordite was overpowering. Amid the dirt, chaos and panic, the few medics available imposed triage; those they by-passed knew they were to die; pain-killing drugs were in short supply. I held the hand of a tiny tot - her shining black hair tied in a single sprig with a red bow on the top her head - dying in so much agony she couldn’t utter a sound, her tiny face a distorted mask. Although her eyes seemingly looked at me, she wouldn’t have known I was there. I held her hand more for my benefit, than for hers. I presumed that the remains beside her had been her mother.

cont ...

To remove my jeans and top, caked to my body by blood and human detritus, I stood under a shower fully dressed. All these clothes were destroyed, as were my sandles - blood and body fluids had seeped through them. The stench stayed with me for days.

Lev, I cannot express the anger and hatred I had for those who had done this, indeed, I also felt guilt, helplessness. I also knew quite clearly the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters. I was told that I must never forget this experience. If I were to forget, ignore what I had witnessed, not speak up when necessary, then it is a betrayal.

The fact that the Hamas indiscriminately use their own as shields, have exploited and let their people suffer so much because of their actions, have murdered and victimised so many of their own so that many Gazans have fled, establishes them as terrorists. Then there is the terrible abuse of children - the situations and propaganda to which no child should be exposed.

Hamas are terrorists. They meet every criteria of being terrorists. The tragedy is that none will state this. It appears that what the Gazans are suffering at their hands is OK as long as they are euphemistically called “freedom fighters”.

Whatever you might feel about the Israelis and the Palestinians at least be honest and with unclouded vision look at the Hamas, see them for what they are, and state it. Hamas are terrorists.

Paul,

Numerous times I have pointed out to you that a secular and democratic homeland does not require sovereignity for any particular religion. Do Jews live in Australia without systematic persecution? No. Is Australia a Jewish state? No. Could Palestine be a Jewish homeland without persecution and without needing to be a Jewish state? Most certainly. That is the project of secular Jews, Christians, and Muslims and non-religious individuals behind the one state (http://www.onestate.org) project.

As I have already explained to you a nation does not depend on self-definition, regardless of what Wikipedia used to say. As for ethnicity, that is a vague definition as much use to cultural anthropologists as 'genre' is to literary studies. It has no place in formal social science. As Max Weber remarked; "the whole conception of ethnic groups is so complex and so vague that it might be good to abandon it altogether".

You are totally incorrect to say that the terms Palestinian is only 60 years old. As a trivial example I can cite the ancient Egyptian Peleset and the ancient Hebrew Peleshet (both rendered in English as Philistia), the works of Herodatus from 2500 years ago (Palaestina), all of which were deemed a distinct people from the Phoenicians, the Arabic (al-filasTinniyyin) from at least the 800s and so onwards even unto the 20th century.

Danielle,

The definition of a terrorist is really quite simple: The systematic use of force against non-combatants for political purposes (see: Schmid and Longman's classic study on the definition, "Political Terrorism", 1988). Apply this definition without prejudice or excuse and you'll see a lot clearer. Actions by both the IDF and various Islamic extremists both constitute terrorism.

Spy,

1) Why is it that Israel's "security related" behaviour appears to be an exercise in collective punishment and humiliation of the Palestinian people?

2) Self defense? Then why such disproportionate responses? Why the use of Palestinians as human shields? etc And most importantly, why the collective punishment? Engaging in military collective punishment is an act of terrorism.

3) A functioning state in Gaza?! Where they can police their own oppression? It is impossible for Gaza to do be a functioning state with the controls that Israel has on it.

4) I can cite numerous statements from Israeli leaders that say exactly the opposite. "Not one village must be left" etc. I do not see any statements that recognise a Palestinian state.

5) Would you care to list the Arab states still at war with Israel? Syrian technically I suppose. There is a UN sponsored ceasefire with Lebanon in 2007, Jordan and Israel have had a peace agreement since 1994, with Egypt since 1979. Of course, Israel bombed Syria in September 2006 without provocation. Still, it did increase Olmert's approval ratings from 25% to 35%.

6) You take it to United Nations to expand the role of operations of UNIFIL, the legitimate peace keeping force in the region, as per international law. Of course, the UN did have observers in South Lebanon. But we know what happened to them; they were targetted and killed by the Israeli invaders (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm).

Lev,

1. Just because you believe that a Jewish homeland doesn’t need sovereignty doesn’t actually make it true. It’s called an opinion; and the evidence you have provided to support this opinion has been rather sparse.

2. You didn’t bother to reply as to why you believe Palestine (biblical or otherwise) deserves sovereignty. I don’t see how you can make a case for a state based upon what you have already posted. But please attempt to do so. It would be good to know which Palestine you believe should have sovereignty, as well.

3. Ancient history isn’t my strong suit and I won’t argue with you about the term ‘Palestinian’ having ancient origins. What we do know is two things. 1 Israel has a similar claim from ancient history. Both are irrelevant. 2. Prior to 1947 it had been thousands of years since there had been Palestinians or Israelites. There is no case to make for either side to claim ownership based upon ancient historical precedent.

4. Wasn’t it Weber who also said that a group is defined by who they exclude? I would like to see your argument for suggesting that a nation is not self defined. And if you can do that I wonder if you could explain to the rest of us why Australia is not really a nation. How you can reconcile yourself with multiculturalism and this idea that nationality is not self defined simply escapes me. The point I was making about ethnicity was that it did NOT define a nation. My point is that nations are self defined.

TBC

Power Plus for PaulL

PaulL, regarding your view that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have claim to any historical attachments.
So for you it’s all about power, PaulL?
Now I know why you fully back the Bush - Cheney style Americana to command the 21st century which not only has the power right now to do so, but apparently holds the say for little Israel to remain the only militarily nuclear power in the Middle East also for the 21st century