Spy,

No, withdrawing from Gaza doesn't count. Especially when Israel controls its airspace, waterways, imports, population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports (reducing the total quantity to 20 different commodities) as well as the tax system. That's not a withdrawl, that's building a prison. Complete withdrawl from Gaza and the West Bank and recognising Palestinian statehood might be a beginning. But I don't see Israel being in any hurry whatsoever to do that. You talk about rocket attacks from Gaza? How about in the other direction? What's the number, tonnage, number of civilians killed from the direction from Israel into Gaza?

Worst of all, you know all this. I'm not sure what you expect the Palestinians to do. Endure another fifty years of colonial occupation of their lands? More military invasions, more apartheid, more deaths?

Every single Arab nation in the region and the PNA have all accepted Israel's "right to exist" (as dubious as it may be). When will Israel accept Palestine's right to exist? How much longer is the world going to have to wait? Because we've waiting for fifty years and frankly, an increasingly number of people are beginning to believe there is neither the intent and desire.

Paul,

You claim "The Jews have every right to have a homeland. Every other major religion has one." Sure, that's what Hannah Arendt said too. Nobody here is saying that Jews (and Christians and Muslims) are not entitled to a homeland in Palestine. But she seemed to be aware of the difference between a homeland and s a State.

"A federated state, finally could be the natural stepping stone for any later, greater federated structure in the Near East and the Mediterranean area...The real goal of the Jews in Palestine is the building up of a Jewish homeland. This goal must never be sacrificed to the pseudo-sovereignty of a Jewish state."

Sol,

As you know, not all Jews are religious - some creeping in of chamez is not unheard of.

You haven't responded to Paul's question as to whether the Arabs in the Knesset are Muslim or not. Indeed, does it really matter what religion they are?

However, just a couple to note: Raleb Majadele, an Arab-Muslim, is Minister of Science, Culture & Sport. Salim Joubran, also an Arab Muslim, sits on Israel's Supreme Court.

Seemingly, voting is not compulsory in Israel. Am I correct? This slews party politics awry.
I once heard an English person state that his family and friends never voted, as it was pointless - then bitterly complained about the party which was elected.

Are you aware of the Policy Papers put out by The Israel Democracy Institute?

Chag sameach, Sol

No person of normal intellect can equate the terrorsim of Hamas with freedom fighters.
Freedom fighters don't target their own. No poster has addressed the issue of Hamas murdering their own people, the ensuing fatwa, nor teaching small tots the joys of martrydom; even forcing them to kiss the blooded bodies of the dead. Would it be correct to state that those here are so pro-Hamas that they find these horrors acceptable. If so, then such people are morally bereft.

Not once have those supporting Israel's right to exist have suggested that Israel should keep the territories beyond the green line acquired for defence - and ... despite the fact that the green line is not an internationally recognised border, but an armistice line between Israel and Jordan.

As one, we agree that for the ideal, two-state solution, Israel must move behind the green line. But this can only happen when Israel is secure - and for those who have forgotten - Israelis are not all Jews. Israel's duty is to its peoples. International law admits that land can be taken for security measures.

cont ...

Indeed it was at Arab insistence that the armistice line not be considered a political or territorial border. However, the Israel-Egypt peace treaty and the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty supposedly demarcated the territory.

Everyone knows "treaties are made to be broken." In these cases by murderous incursions initiated by Jordan, Egypt and Syria. The Golan Heights remain a prime position for picking off agricultural workers, fishing vessels and, better still, shelling Israeli settlements. An interfering UN observer was duly picked off by Jordian fire from Issawiya.

Yes, indeed, India in action is the ideal secular democratic state ... Those living there don’t agree, admitting of grave problems ... but from the safe distance of Australia, we see things differently, don't we ..

Dannielle,

"As you know, not all Jews are religious"

In which case they are not Jews, but rather people with Jewish heritage. Judiasm is a religion, not a nationality.

"Raleb Majadele, an Arab-Muslim, is Minister of Science, Culture & Sport."

You neglected to mention he is the first and only Muslim Minister in the country and that the Cabinet voted against his appointment. That's not a good track record

"Indeed, does it really matter what religion they are?"

It of interest in a State definied by its religion.

"Freedom fighters don't target their own. No poster has addressed the issue of Hamas murdering their own people"

The ANC, SWAPO and FRETILIN most certainly did. The French resistance, the Greek resistance, the Yugoslav resistance, the Italian resistance, and I believe even the Dutch resistance did. The American revolutionaries most certainly did. Indeed there hasn't been freedom fighters in history who haven't targetted their own people because there are always local collaborators with oppressors. That is a simple, albeit unpleasant, reality.

Please avail yourself of a more careful and accurate study of history.

"Not once have those supporting Israel's right to exist have suggested that Israel should keep the territories beyond the green line acquired for defence"

No, but the all seem to think they have the right to ignore international law and invade any country whenever they supposedly feel threatened. Like Lebanon in 2006?

Actually it would be an interesting test to see who in this thread seriously thinks that Israel, under any circumstances, will give up the 400,000 settlers it has in the West Bank.

Lev, a few points.

1) Many of the controls Israel is exercising in relation to Gaza are security related. If there were no rockets, they'd be fewer controls.

2) Rockets: yes, Israel responds in self-defence to rockets from Gaza and yes, there have been more Palestinian casualties. As I said above, if there were no rockets coming from Gaza Israel wouldn't need to defend itself.

3) You wrote: "I'm not sure what you expect the Palestinians to do. Endure another fifty years of colonial occupation of their lands? More military invasions, more apartheid, more deaths?"

If the Palestinians had made a genuine attempt at building a functioning state in Gaza they would've done themselves a great favour. Remember that at the last Israeli election Ariel Sharon's newly formed Kadima party was elected on a platform of drawing final borders in the West Bank as a follow up to the withdrawal from Gaza. Had the Gaza withdrawal gone well there would've been great prospects for progress on the West Bank. Unfortunately, by using Gaza as a launching pad for rocket attacks militant groups sent a message that they weren't interested in peace but wanted to continue fighting.

4) Your comments about Israel not recognising the Palestinians' right to exist are ridiculous. Check any number of statements and speeches from Israeli leaders for acceptance of the Palestinians' right to exist. Failure to agree on the final borders of a future Palestinian state does not mean Israel doesn't recognise their right to a state.

5) Arab states' acceptance of Israel: you wrote: "Every single Arab nation in the region and the PNA have all accepted Israel's "right to exist". How many have diplomatic relations with Israel, how many are still officially in a state of "war"? What about Hamas? You make it sound like they're all lining up to make peace with Israel. Totally inaccurate.

6) Lebanon in 2006: would you accept a hostile force like Hezbollah on your doorstep carrying out sporadic attacks on the north of your country? No, and why should you have to?

Lev,

>> ” Nobody here is saying that Jews (and Christians and Muslims) are not entitled to a homeland in Palestine… [there is a] difference between a homeland and a State.”

What good is a homeland if you can’t live without persecution? To avoid persecution in a region absolutely awash in it, you need sovereignty. Where does a nation without sovereignty have a homeland in the middle east that doesn’t suffer major persecution? If the Israelis were to give up sovereignty there would be no Israelis in the middle east within a decade, probably less. What about their homeland then?

Wikipedia recognizes that a nation is a form of SELF-DEFINED cultural and social community. Although ethnicity is now one of the most important aspects of cultural or social identity, people with the same ethnic origin may live in different nation-states and be treated as members of separate nations for that reason. Ethnicity does not determine nationhood. So do you deny that the Israelis are a NATION. The fact that Israel has had the institutions for sovereignty over their own country for 60 years surely makes Israel a STATE.

I don’t really see how you can suggest that Palestine is a nation or a state It never was either so on what basis do you make the claim to sovereignty by Palestinians. In fact the term ‘Palestinian’ itself is only 60 odd years old. And the Palestine the COUNTRY, ie area of land it described, has been partially subsumed by not only Israel but Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. Are you suggesting hiving off parts of those countries to form a new Palestine?

Considering the land has had numerous owners over the millennia surely the 1947 UN resolution should be the fallback position