Lowenstein knows that the Lebanese Phalangists militia were responsible for the deaths of Lebanese(PLO) civilians in Sabra and Shatilla, even if Israel had control of the area. He would also know of the Damour Massacre 6 years earlier in 1976 during which the PLO massacred maronite Christians. In fact the group known as the Phalangist Damouri Brigade was the one which carried out the massacres in Sabra and Shatilla.

Marilyn

Lowensteins references to Ilan Pappe and the rest of the new Historians are not surprising. However to suggest that somehow they represent a consensus among historians would be entirely inaccurate. Interestingly Benny Morris had this to say about Ilan Pape work “Pappe’s book was "truly appalling," subjugated history to political ideology, and "contained errors of a quantity and a quality that are not found in serious historiography” If you really want to pretend that a communist with virtually no reputation for truth (Pappe) tells the real story then you’ll believe anything.

Benny Morris views the intifada as a "political-terroristic assault on Israel's existence (and also as an offshoot of fundamentalist Islam's ongoing assault on the West.”

Your appalling understanding of the history of Israel’s three major wars against Arab armies is unforgivable in this context. To Spy’s account all I would add is the 1967 Egyptian blockade of the Israeli port of Eilat and the ordering out of UNEF forces. Egypt was undoubtedly preparing for war against Israel.

The Hamas Charter

>> The Islamic Resistance Movement … strives to raise the banner of Allah OVER EVERY INCH OF PALESTINE

>> The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. “

>> Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE EXCEPT UNDER THE WING OF ISLAM

A flash of commonsense, Paull, for your apparent thoughts abut future peace in the Middle East.

It is interesting in an introduction to political philosophy, we are advised to treat government as a successful family.

As one near the end of his days, I do pay much credit to my now deceased wife of over sixty years.

As mentioned in an earlier Post, I did point how my wife was the one who would not accuse so much, but suggest we talk about it, calming me down, especially in front of the kids.

You do also learn similar in political philosophy, whom too many of our contributers term left-wing rubbish.

Just recently, I also picked up info about understanding Israelies risking their reputations by moving into Arab areas mainly offering help in orchards and such.

Could we call these Israelies left-wing loonies similar to those who attend universities trying to learn how to share the blame in the Middle East without war?

Cheers - BB, WA.

BB

I don’t consider political philosophy left wing rubbish, only the self hating strain that you carry on with. You speak as if all political philosophers share the same opinion. That is patently false and indeed is a scary statement as it shows a lack of critical thought. Political philosophy is a broad church with many followers. You speak about political philosophy as if it were somehow a unitary thing which has found the solution, like in mathematics. Political philosophy doesn’t provide answers like that no matter how much you pretend it is so.

Your ideas concerning sharing the blame are valid, however it seems you can’t actually practice this philosophy. It seems you are always criticising the democratic west and yet stay silent or even support the autocratic and dictatorial regimes of the middle east and third world. When I can see people like you acknowledge that while the west, including the US has behaved badly at times, we have been a potent force for good in the world then I will begin to acknowledge the errors of the west. But the left attempts at moral equivalency in blame sharing(or worse) between the democratic and undemocratic nations is not only flawed it’s counterproductive.

Whilst it would be nice if the conflict could be solved by a little neighbourliness like going next door to help bring in the crop, it will not be. Hamas is part of a pan-Islamic-fundamentalism sweeping the muslim world. This strain of Islamism has no room for compromise and has set it sights on winning its confrontations with the west.

Your support for the autocratic, in fact insane, leadership of Iran and their search for nuclear weapons ignores the fact that the Iranians are infinitely more likely to use them than Israel. They’ve already threatened to.

The Iranians are intent on disrupting the current balance of power in their favour for one reason alone, to advance Iran’s power and prestige in the region. This will inevitably lead to more instability. I don’t want to see Iran invaded I just want them to stop their nuclear push

There are a number of links to the media staged event I wrote about earlier;

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1647

<The boy was shown crouching with his father behind a barrel next to a concrete wall in an apparently vain attempt to shelter from the gun-battle between Israel and the Palestinians that was raging around them. In his commentary on the incident France 2’s Israel correspondent, Charles Enderlin, declared that the IDF had killed the boy.

This footage become the iconic image of the intifada and the Palestinian ‘struggle’ against Israel. >
http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1612

The comments of Marilyn use the same logic as those who deny the holocaust existed. Simply deny any of the facts that inconveniently don't fit into your theories.

The simple fact is that the reason Israel is the most powerful military in the region is because it has to be.

The incursion into Israel, the murder of several soldiers and the kidnapping of 2 more, combined with the well documented offensive build up by Hezbollah would provoke almost any state into retaliation. (Turkey into Iraq).

The disproportionate use of force against the infrastructure of Lebanon as well as the military of Hezbollah is an effective tactic to destroy its offensive capability, and ensure that its support is eroded.

This tactic was effective against Serbia in Kosovo, and by the comparative stability of the border with Lebanon, has been here.

While Israel was the David, it is now the Goliath, but the Palestinians hands are also far from clean. It takes two to tango, and in the dance of death, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah are consummate artistes.

Where Hamas has yet to even acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, has the majority support of the Palestinians, and continues to expand its offensive actions, the tactics of the Israelis while distasteful seem to be the only ones that work.

If outsiders point fingers at Israel for racism after 60 years of bloody conflict, one only has to see the effect in Australia against Muslims and Dr Haneef after a few incidents off shore.

I don't have the answers, but maybe the wall will give both sides the time out they need.

Dear (poor) Marilyn

Please read Paul L's post IN DETAIL and then also read SPY's

It's allll there.. the full story. 'Balance'... I've said all those things before.. independantly.

-Damour Massacre... http://www.truelebanon.bravehost.com/pics/dampics-slideshow.html
-Hamas Charter...
-The fake 'palestinian teenager' shooting story.

If anyone does not know about or understand the implications of these events/documents..then you are really unqualified to speak about the conflict.

JOHN PASSY :) onya moit.....

"I see the way forward in all of Palestine as being a democratic multi-ethnic state where all those who want to can live"

Why of course John ... when you are neither an Arab Muslim in Gaza or the West bank... nor a Jew in Israel.. everything is so easy, simple and clear... but of course.. you might want to rethink that after reading that Hamas Charter and realizing it is 'for real' and that this kind of thinking is an insurmountable barrier to your cloud 9 utopian dream.
The Settlers are the ones who base their presense on the 'promised land' idea.. the rest, secular Jews are simply using the 'might is right' method.

I used some pictures of the Damour Massacre in a solo protest/demo at RMIT one time. See how those Arabs treated Christians.. they were not even Jews...but they were 'in the way'.