Democritus

It is not just racism. To my mind Israel was founded on the genocide of the Palestinians, a genocide that continues to this day. The Wall is just another example of that. As are the blockade of Gaza, incursions there, de facto occupation, the destruction of Lebanon and so forth.

On the building of the Wall, let me paraphrase Ronald Reagan. "Mr Olmert, tear down your wall."

And to BOAZ_David, my idea a bout a democratic and secular Palestine is not new and I have elsewhere indicated that the spiral of opposition between Zionism and its victims makes this idea sound less and less realistic.

In fact mainstream Palestinian organisations once adopted it. It was part of the PLO charter I understand. The racist logic of Zionism makes this view unrealistic at the moment.

Finally as to Hamas, I note that their are voices within Israel calling for negotiations with the democratically elected Palestinian Government.

Passy,

Israel was founded on the back of the league of nations and the 1947 UN resolution to divide the mandate of Palestine into two countries, one for Jews and one for Arabs. But for the stupidity and ignorance of the Arabs at the time there would be a 60 year old country called Palestine. Instead 5 Arab armies were deployed to attempt to retake all of Palestine and expel the Jews.

You speak of the racist logic of the Zionists. What a joke. Please respond to this quote below from the Hamas Charter and then try and pretend that racism is the preserve of Zionists.

>> “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. “

My guess is you haven’t the guts to respond.

If Israel is the more racist explain the fact that there are Arabs in Israel’s Knesset, that Arabs study at Jewish universities. How many Jews do you know who are even allowed to live in Arab countries?

The PLO liked the one state notion because it would have handed them power without having to fight for it. To see how how a PLO led gov’t would fare in a one state situation all you need do is look back to Lebanon in the 1980’s. Absolute catastrophe comes to mind. If Jews made up the majority in the lands of Palestine there would be zero support for your wacky concept from the PLO or Arabs or soft-lefters like yourself.

You’re continuing use of the inaccurate and pejorative term, "Zionists" to describe Israelis marks you out as an anti-Semite.It is pathetic people like you who use the word genocide in conjunction with a security wall that have devalued that word and made it almost meaningless. The wall doesn’t kill anybody, in fact the wall has made a significant contribution to the reduced number of suicide bombers entering Israel.

I have to agree with Paul and further add, the vitriol of certain posters here blind them to recognise the existence of a basic premise - which in turn effected the concept and establishment of international law. From the horror of the Nazi Holocaust, pressure grew for the international recognition of a Jewish state - in 1948 Israel came into being.

U.N. Resolution 181, which called for the termination of the British Mandate in Palestine and the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in that territory, is still valid today. This, simply stated, is not a premise for terror, albeit notwithstanding the perversion of some with logic.

Some appear well beyond the naiveté of ignorance and fail to understand a current political reality. Recent statements made by Hamas (a peoples' elected authority), advocating violence, opposing a two-state solution, and denying Israel's right to exist, as well as its direct involvement in terrorism, served to prompt the international Quartet ( US,, Europe, Russia and the UN) to set three conditions for any Palestinian government to attain international legitimacy and cooperation. These basic conditions are: recognizing Israel's right to exist, renouncing terrorism and violence, and accepting previous agreements and obligations, including the Roadmap.

Those, who in their loathing burst their spleen, fail also to recognise the institution of a half-century old secular authority. Those who merely condemn a modern state for its sovereignty are peace-imposters , or, the poseurs for peace in our time . There is little doubt, terrorism is bred on both sides of a boundary but the extreme anti-Israeli indoctrination, so pervasive in Palestinian society, nurtures a culture of hatred. A well documented and recognised charter, through an elected body (Hamas), lends further legitimacy to this hatred through party orchestrated terrorism.

Thanks Paul. I do have the guts to respond.

Let me first say I find deeply offensive and defamatory your comment that I am an an anti-Semite. Abuse is the refuge of those who cannot defend Zionism in either its historical or present day reality. How do you for example classify some Jewish writers on the subject who are pro-Palestinian? I suspect I know your answer but want to see you write it to show the bankruptcy of your comments and lack of thought.

I have a novel suggestion. Why not address the issues?

The fact that the UN decided to commit genocide against the Palestinian people does not make it right.

Ah Hamas. I do not support Hamas. The majority of Palestinians do. Israeli writers (some anyway) have called for Olmert to talk to Hamas. I am with them in recognising political reality.

The collapse (perhaps on-going) of Palestinian secularism and left nationalism is a complex matter but is in part explained by the systemic inability of Zionism or its imperialist backers to countenance any settlement with the Palestinians.

The article itself raises issues which are similar to this. Perhaps you could try to address them rationally.

I doubt most Palestinians support that part of the charter which calls for killing Jews, despite the fact that for the past 60 years Israel has forced many Palestinians off their land, herded them into bantustans, impoverished them and killed thousands upon thousands in the region.

I think in fact most Palestinians voted for Hamas because of the social services they provide and because of the corruption of Fatah, plus the fact they knew they would get representatives who were not going to give in to the Israelis or Americans (unlike the PLO.)

My post was not delusional, it is the truth. And historian like Pappe, Finkelstein, Gorenberg, Avnery and many others including Shlomo Ben-Ami are using their own history documents released in the late 1990's to correct the history instead of lying about it.

For heavens' sake, the Europeans murdered 6 million Jews not the arabs.
It is dangerous, deluded and ugly stuff and the world should be ashamed of itself.

Actually in his book "Journey into Darkness" Winton Higgins explains Australia's complicity in the murders of Jews in WW11 in a few words that are on display at the holocaust museum. There was a meeting in France in 1938 of 22 western nations to discuss the plight of Jewish refugees.

These are the 13 words that helped the nazis with their massacres in the world's most evil crime.

"As we have no racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one".

Winton goes on to say this "It's a tribute to the Canberra mandarin's art to pack so much callousness, dishonesty, pomposity and complacency into just 13 words."

When the St louis was turned away we took part, the other 21 nations at Evian also decided to deny the jews sanctuary, they shut up shop.

We bear as much responsibility for the horror that followed as any other nation on earth yet we dare to blame the Palestinians because we then decided to make them pay for our own complicity in mass murder.

Page 78 of the book by the way. WE also denied refugee status to the Dunera boys and locked them up. WE recently lost a high court case denying refuge to Russian jews because we claimed they should have gone to Israel. Thank god the high court were not that stupid because the refugee convention was written because of what we did to the jews in WW11.

The sick part of that is the right of return is guaranteed to every nation on earth except Palestine because the jews now won't allow it.

Grow up all you ranting fools and get to the truth.

".......pressure grew for the international recognition of a Jewish state - in 1948 Israel came into being......" (Quote:Relda)

Just like that?? You surely have to acknowledge that 'Israel came in to being' is a highly contentious issue. The land was already populated!

".......recognizing Israel's right to exist.....".(Quote:Relda)

And Palestine's.

"......Those, who in their loathing burst their spleen fail to recognize the institution of a half-century old secular authority....." (Quote:Relda)

The land was populated FAR longer then that 'half-century' you refer to.

And one more thing Relda;- it does little good to denigrate the intelligence of those who do not agree with your point of view. It is highly debatable WHO in their loathing burst their spleen!!

And surely it is a clear indication of what is causing the ongoing problems;...........the total incapacity to see things from both sides