Pelican,

Absolutely I’d disagree with banning this ad whether MTR or Naomi Wolfe or Nelson Mandela instigated it. If you doubt me, I can refer you to older diatribes of mine which are firmly in the absolute free speech camp.

The other thing to note is that the ASB was not involved in this decision, which is one of the things that p!ssed me off. If the complaint had gone to the ASB and been upheld then that would have been the end of it. (Though I might have considered writing in support of it.) It concerns me that MTR holds the kind of power than can force advertisers and magazines to self-censor — particularly in light of her broader agenda. At the end of the day, I care about the principle of censorship, but not about this particular ad. But when it comes to influencing young girls about their options when they find themselves pregnant, I care if their information is censored AND I care about those particular girls. That’s why I’ve highlighted her background. I do appreciate that it isn’t the issue at hand and others don’t agree it’s relevant.

Pelican: “Bottom line is what sort of society do we wish to aspire to and what are the images that best fit a society where all members are treated with respect and dignity?”
I want to live in a society that it is free and mature as it can conceivably be. I believe that someone else’s right to say what they like is way more important than my right not to be offended.

Free speech, I believe, should be the default position. Sometimes, we may need to limit that right, but if we do, we need to take it very seriously indeed. There are several reasons why, which I’ve already banged on about, but basically I don’t believe banning anything is an effective way to encourage a more virtuous society. An easily offended culture, a risk averse culture, isn’t necessarily a kind culture, or a civilised one.

...And what I haven’t heard on this thread is any compelling argument why this ad actually encourages violence. What about if we drew the line under images that we're sure actually affect people? How specifically do you think the car boot image is affecting Harper’s Bazzaar readers?

Seeker. I’m speechless. You’re a genius.

Yvonne: Yes, I agree absolutely. It’s what Romany and I were grumbling about at the beginning of this thread. You can start by exploring apart from ideology, but then someone comes along and says, as Antiseptic did, that feminists “promulgate an attitude that women need take no responsibility for anything (unless they want to, of course).”

Ginx: “You ARE rather unhappy that people cannot see this situation YOUR way, aren't you? It disappoints you.”

Of course! One of the reasons that I come to this site is because I enjoy arguing about ideas. My ideas and values are not arbitrary. I’m passionate about them, I’ve thought hard about them, and I do my best to persuade others that they’re good ideas. On the other hand, I’m happy to abandon them if they turn out to be wrong, and I don’t *need* people to agree with me. I’ve had my mind changed and/of stretched by others, including on OLO, many times.

James,
Thanks for trying to cheer me up. I'm very touched.

Vanilla
I don't doubt you at all and take you at your word. When you go on to raise MTR's abortion stance I am in total agreeance with you but this article is not about pregnant girls. I am only standing in judgement of MTR on the issue raised in the article and would hope that someone not judge my stance on one issue because of a prejudice of my view on an entirely different one - that is why I raised that point (I am not saying you are doing this as I know from your forum posts that is not the case).

Whether to ban or not to ban this Ad is nothing to do with free speech. The right to discuss the Ad is however, free speech.

I do take on board some of your points and would agree with you perhaps in another circumstances but just not on this one. We all agree that sometimes a line needs to be drawn but we might just disagree on where to draw it.

My view of a mature society is one that provides the freedoms but tempers that right with other rights that of respect and dignity. Despite some of the successes of the feminist movement I think we still have a long way to go in regard to how women are portrayed in the media. I guess that you can never please all of the people all the time when trying to balance the issues of freedoms with other rights and like all mature adults we can just agree to disagree in this particular instance.

Pelican,

I’ve been pretty neutral to this ad after ignoring Melinda’s initial diatribe, until hearing arguments such as yours, adding support to links of violence against women. I just thought it was an ad in a women’s magazine, presumably created by women, and directed at women. I thought it was visual representation of “fashion to die for”, and I assumed there was some preceding market research done, in a competent female fashion.

You made me realise how wrong I was; moreover, how older-wave feminist pressure can be exerted to reign in more contemporary feminist views. Pity the non-feminist women.

Guess their market research actually told them to create visual imagery that projected a very different catchphrase - “You never know when you may end up the subject of a crime scene – so always wear our stuff”. You know, be sexy for CSI and morgue staff. I can appreciate how that would work for their potential clientele.

Now that most of the sarcasm is out of the way, I declare my support for this particular ad is skyrocketing as is my disdain for Melinda’s cohort overwhelming. My strongest objection rests squarely on the accompanying propaganda, rather than against social damage commercial advertisers may cause (and they can, probably in similar doses to both genders). The line you draw on free speech is one-dimensional (;-) and comes up short (;-), but as mature adults we can always disagree to agree

Yvonne: "Why do some of you men think that women too want the privileges and choices that men take so for granted that they can't even see how privileged it has been to be born as a man throughout the ages until relatively recently in the West?"

While I can't quite parse your sentence, I'll address the issue of privilege. Male "privilege" has been tempered with a great deal of responsibility throughout history, just as women's "privilege" has been. Notwithstanding the fact that many women died in childbirth, women have lived longer than men and they have generally lived better than men, because men have long seen it as their role to ensure that is the case. What "privilege" do you see in the role of the peasant farmer, or the drover, or the miner, or the factory serf, or the blacksmith, or the mucker-out of stables? These are all traditionally male occupations, have been for centuries in that bastion of male privilege, the West. How about the soldier, the barber/surgeon, the linen-bleacher (which involved collecting, aging and then treading in people's urine). Seeing much privilege yet?

For the record, I'm not "anti-Feminist", but I am opposed to the toxic brand of feminism that has infitrated our bureaucracies and Government. I'm opposed because it is discriminatory in its very core. It is tailor-made for talentless people to hitch their wagon to for a free ride and I personally find that a disgrace. Furthermore, it has lead to an enormous expenditure on "research" designed for a particular finding, rather than honest, open enquiry (see anything at all by Michael Flood for an example).

I was brought up by parents who taught me to respect women and to treat them with courtesy and consideration. I find that few women, especially those who call themselves feminists, return the favour.

BTW, I grew up and lived for over 15 years in PNG and I saw just the tribal situation I described. One consequence is that men die younger and spend a lot more time injured or ill, just as we do in Australia.

Yvonne,

'privileged it has been to be born as a man throughout the ages until relatively recently in the West?'

a) What antiseptic said.

b) Maybe because the men here have been born relatively recently? And have to constantly hear stuff like this from women who have also probably been born relatively recently too. Like many men I feel I was brought up being told about my supposed 'privilege' of being a man, the supposed oppressive history of my gender that I am to somehow apologise for now, whilst observing the chip on the shoulder of women brought up with the same opportunities and probably more life choices than myself.

You agree the 'pendulum' has swung too far in some cases, yet how many times do we hear 'we still have a long way to go'.

Feminism wouldn't have achieved half of what it has achieved in the last 50 years without the help of most men. Lets face it, men cant have been the oppressive overlords they are made out to be, if they let women have all the rights and privileges in such an historically short time span. As soon as a critical mass of women decided they wanted to vote and work, it wasn't very long before they got it. People always forget it wasn't that long before women got the right to vote, or own land etc, that most men didn't either. Regardless I'm sick of apologising for my gender.