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The Forum > Article Comments > Preachers and presidents > Comments

Preachers and presidents : Comments

By Alan Matheson, published 10/3/2008

The way Americans do religion, particularly during presidential campaigns, bemuses and frequently scares the hell out of the rest of the world.

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goodthief, sorry for the confusion. i thought i had pre-declared when i wrote early on that i very much agreed with your starting point. so, i'm playing, but i'm not sure of the game. in any case, i doubt i could begin any better than with csteele's post.
Posted by bushbasher, Friday, 14 March 2008 9:22:39 AM
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I suggest to runner and anyone of like mind that they do something to improve their knowledge. At the site below there are regular blogs by a brilliant writer and biologist. Earlier archived articles are easily retrieved.
If each of you read and understand even part of what is written in these blogs the standard of debate on OLO should improve dramatically. The argument between creation and evolution is over and creation lost!
http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/
Posted by Foyle, Friday, 14 March 2008 9:50:12 AM
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GOODTHIEF... hi :) yes.. to answer your question, of course. We can agree on that. ("Humans are of immense value and equal")

But dear Grand Poo Bar FOYLE need some gentle guidance though *punch* :) just kidding Foyle but after all you DID say:

"anyone who thinks their own religion is the bee’s knees is a few sandwiches short of a picnic and are potentially a danger to all society."

You have a point there, but there is a very important flaw in it.

You seem to feel that 'any' religion is dangerous to society.

Can you show me something from the New Testament, in particular the teaching of the Lord Jesus, which is a danger? and where those tho believe it, are also a danger? and would you mind unpacking your 'vilification' of various classes of people (Christians included) where you are holding us up to 'serious ridicule contempt and inciting hatred' towards us, (an act which has cost some people up to a million :) by saying we are ALL a danger to society.. ..

You know.. that was the KEY element in Justice Higgins decision against Nalia and Scott...that they did not differentiate between 'mainstream' Muslims and 'radical' Muslims who were a 'danger to society'

Don't worry, we won't sue you :) we are used to it, but an apology would be nice.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 14 March 2008 10:17:08 AM
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Shucks bushbasher thanks.

I admit to finding a lovely sense of poetry in the words;

5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,
6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth! (Psalm 113:5,6)

However you may be disappointed with the following.

Goodthief,

"Am I right to assume that you regard each human as equally valuable, so that each should be given equal respect?"

No you can not, because truthfully I don't.

I'm not even sure respect follows value.

I value my family more than other human beings and I certainly respect some humans more than others.

What I would do expect of myself and my society/government is a respect of the rights of all humans to live their lives and to pursue their dreams and aspirations as free as possible from preventable disease, war, violence, bigotry, poor education, intimidation etc within a caring society.

And in a sense I expect better from my government than from myself in that I wouldn't want a leadership that put my family above any other.

This may be what you are asking of your God.
Posted by csteele, Friday, 14 March 2008 10:20:04 AM
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bushbasher, you’re right, you had declared. The game is just looking for common ground – in case it can be a launching pad for more common ideas. I think a lot of stuff that’s good for the world would follow from this common ground if many people consciously occupied it.

Thank you B_D. I'm not surprised you're in, but I'm glad.

csteele, This value/respect is not dependent on personal bonds, but is objective. There may even be something artificial about it. That’s why I used the word “deem” in an earlier discussion. I’m hoping that we can agree that “There’s just something about humans” that makes it compellingly reasonable to treat them “as if” they are of enormous value and equally so.

Nothing to do with bonds and feelings. Something that ignores the many differences we are conscious of, and ignores the very impressive flaws we all possess in our disposition and our output - just “something”. And, to make agreement possible, something that we don’t have to trouble ourselves to explain. And something which we all should recognise, and adhere to, even though we are likely to be more gracious to those we love or like.

I’m saying we’re equal in possessing this “something”. You good with that?

I see your point about aspirations as being down the track, but probably not far. Mind you, as I’ve said, I’m not in charge, and I’m nervously making this up as I go along.

I expect this kind of armchair philosophy would be tedious to some: it's the possibility of consensus that I think is exciting. Esp on OLO, where we look around and find ourselves agreeing with those who are normally our adversaries.

Anyone else around?

Pax,
Posted by goodthief, Saturday, 15 March 2008 12:42:34 PM
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Boaz_David; It is the ‘them and us’ complex which flows from the belief that one set of faith beliefs is true and that all other faith beliefs are in some way wrong and inferior that makes particular sets of faith beliefs dangerous to society. Read the history of religious persecution and you will find numerous examples where those who held that their beliefs were true exterminated those whom they considered, held heretical beliefs. The Inquisition is one example but some of the Protestant leaders and groups at that time weren’t much better.
I accept nothing on faith unless it is from a well educated specialist in some scientific field I know little about. I prefer to believe only those propositions for which I can determine clear supporting evidence.
Having read widely on evolution I see masses of supporting evidence for modern evolutionary theory which is of course Darwin’s Theory, modified as all scientific theories are when evidence is found which extends or modifies the initial theory. Such modifications occurred when both mutation and DNA added to Darwin’s explanation. This is the point I was making when I drew attention to the Judson blog in my later post.
Posted by Foyle, Sunday, 16 March 2008 5:56:57 PM
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