Hi goodthief. Bin away. Back now.

What an interesting question you posed, and what an unsatisfactory set of responses.

Of course we are not special. We share a substantial percentage of our DNA with chimpanzees...

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/100/12/7181.pdf

...but have clearly evolved just a tiny bit further in the brain department. So we can discuss, argue, create, hypothesize etc. slightly more than apes and fish, but that difference is really quite small.

The difference does allow us, however, to make significantly more searching enquiries into our circumstances than any of our furry or fishy friends, and has also contributed to the creation of what we now call "civilization".

But looked at from a slightly longer perspective, the time during which we as thinking and philosophizing human beings will have existed is but a cosmic flash - lo! we arrive, toddle around a bit, procreate a bit, create stuff for a while then poof! we are gone. Looked at as an episode in the constantly changing universe (or multiverse, if you are so inclined) we are little more than insignificant specks.

Don't get me wrong, I am totally excited by the concept of living for a while, enjoying the fruits of evolution that allow me to experience music, love, art, joy, people and all the rest of the paraphernalia of life. But I cannot bring myself to believe that we are anything more than a delightful cosmic accident, an anomaly at one end of the bell-curve of universal possibilities.

I am far too late I know to get any serious responses, but it would be interesting to know, from those who have said "of course we are special", what exactly that "specialness" is, and what impact it has on the way they look at the world.

Goodthief has deemed that we are more special as a species but look who is making the call, a human! (You are a human goodthief aren't you?) I imagine dolphins might think of themselves as pretty special.

We have heard of them saving humans from drowning and displaying great gentleness around pregnant women but if a dolphin had to make a choice between another of its own species and a human I'm not sure I would be putting my house on the human.

So where does that leave us? Probably exactly where goodthief wanted us to be. The only way we can truly regard ourselves as exceptional is if another entity altogether decides that we are.

Goodthief has his other entity and calls it God (bushbred has dropped out so hopefully this is okay), but even he has his favourites. Goodthief's God's special humans are the Jewish people.

However if we feel we instinctively regard the human race as special (I am going to wear that word out) that’s fine, but it doesn't rationally follow that in the grand scheme of things that we are, even with our conceptual abilities. To do so would surely mean discounting the possibility of any other more advanced life forms in what Paul Davies regards as a very life friendly universe.

Goodthief’s example of human ‘flaws’ like greed and violence are so much part of the human psyche that overcoming them often appears to be more of a flaw than indulging in them. Going to war for oil is a case in point. When we view a man like Ghandi he garners our respect precisely because he overcame those very human traits. If he didn’t have them in the first place then his behaviour would have been far less impressive.

Indeed who is the more impressive human, a vegan shopping in an organic vegetable store or an alcoholic at an A.A. meeting?

Do these views disqualify me as a humanist?

Pericles & csteele, I never thought an evolutionist would have a reason to regard humans as valuable and equal. By “evolutionist”, I mean, someone who believes that we humans are NOTHING OTHER THAN evolved beings. If that’s all we are, then I think two things follow:

i) we’re nothing special, just the latest thing on our evolutionary thread. There’s no objective reason to distinguish between humans and other species. We're more complex/intelligent, but who said that decides absolute value?

ii) we’re not equal – the differences we observe (in strength, intelligence, skill, beauty, disposition etc) are not just real but are as important as we decide they are. If we decide intelligence is the criterion, then applying that criterion within the human species means we can treat more intelligent people as more valuable than less intelligent people.

I see these as unsatisfactory outcomes.

People like me regard humans as being made in God’s image, and being loved by God. This, if true, gives me a reason for regarding humans as extremely valuable and equally valuable – as the God link trumps all other considerations. Doesn’t mean God exists, of course (unlikely that I’ll try to convince you of this), but it means the belief provides a framework for what I call humanism (including social justice).

What do you think?

If it matters, I wasn’t trying to lure anyone into a polemical trap of any kind. I privately believed the atheists online would have no reason to regard humans as important or equal, but hoped they’d believe it anyway so that we could occupy this as common ground, and move forward. Some believe it anyway – I think, because it’s compellingly believable, which is stronger than simply saying that “It works” (in evolutionary terms).

I don't agree, if this is what is being suggested, that reducing the incidence of greed and violence is a bad idea. I think it would be a good thing.

Pax,

Mmm goodthief…Am I the only one to note the contradiction between your 2 points?

I also note your emphasis “NOTHING OTHER THAN” but it is not mine. As someone who accepts the truth of an evolutionary history I think we are a glorious part of a planetary ecosystem and one of the many amazing products of the evolutionary mechanism.

The thought that most of the atoms and all of the molecules in my body having their origins in exploding stars is one of the more dramatic things I can contemplate and surely must have greater import than a casual creative wave of a godly arm.

May I remind you again of Psalm 113:5,6

5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,
6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!

While you glorify your God I would be more than happy to slap a beer in his hand and sit on the front porch with him in humbled solidarity over the grandeur of the universe.

Are you sure you are not a theist rather than a humanist good thief?

Interesting, csteele, thanks. By “nothing other than”, I didn’t mean to downplay the natural explanation. I’m happy to join you in rhapsodising about the process and the products of evolution.

It’s just that I also believe in God, and I also like to rhapsodise about God. It makes sense: if I regard the cosmos as wonderful and if I believe that God dreamed it up and, somehow, generated it, then how could I not regard God as wonderful? (Again, I’m not trying to persuade you that God exists.)

Not sure what to make of the psalm (excuse me), but I like your point about the beer. Certainly, I believe that far too many theists – Christians, in my case – set God at an enormous distance. By “glorifying” Him, for instance.

I think we should give credit where it’s due – including to God – but I don’t think God wants to be at a distance. Jesus, according to us Christians, establishes this very clearly.

And consider Genesis 3:8:

“They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden at the time of the evening breeze …”.

I know things then took a turn for the worse, but my point is that it reads as though the sound of God walking nearby was familiar. I think God has this kind of close, companionable relationship in mind. Like your beer on the front porch.

Consider also the first verse of the First Letter of John in the New Testament, who describes Christ as “what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands”.

This is getting sanctimonious, and I’m sorry. Just wanting to point out that Christians do not regard God as remote – at least, not merely remote.

Yes, I’m sure I’m a theist. Oddly, though, it may be that God is a humanist of sorts.

Pax,

Well goodthief I'm sure we might be able to find a seat on the porch for you with the two of us, I may even give up the right hand side in difference to your faith.

As you would both be my guests I would be happy to keep away from any discussion about sex or religion but I'm wondering, since Genesis literally relates a story about one of the gods falling in love with one of the many human races, if a question about what his mates were up to would be out of order?

And who knows but by the third or fourth beer, remembering we have become god-like ourselves through our knowledge of good and evil, God might just want to unburden himself a little about his glitches and his propensity to do evil, especially that one around Noah's time. Suprising amount of water required to clean that slate!

Perhaps a sympathetic response might be to let him know what a human-like reaction it was and that while we could not condone such an incredibly violent act it we could at least understand it.

However lets agree not to talk about it unless he raises the subject and instead stick the feet up on the rail and enjoy the night sky sound in the knowledge that in the 'grand scheme of things' it doesn't really matter that much.